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red winter offensive - 3/23/2014 4:58:39 PM   
charlie0311

 

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v1.07.11

the purpose of this thread is to have massive fun discussing how to organize the red colossus as to do maximum damage to the nazi scum.

i am about 3 months into wite playing v the ai. Now i have one pbem going v human,i am sov, only t1.

i have seen all the old posts. One wonders how and if they apply to .11 version. Probably way to much to cover it all, but anything might be useful.

i see way too many armies to get them into the front/md command structure. So i would guess they use stravka, as kind of another front.

i am particularly concerned about where to put the shock armies that arrive in nov/dec. Maybe leaving space for them in bryansk and kalinin fronts is a good idea.

if, say, kalinin front, were already full. If you send one of kalinin front armies to stravka, so you can put a shock army in its place, well ok, but massive ap cost?

the general question is: making a good fight for leningrad and moscow will require packing north, northwest, kalinin, bryansk fronts with 12 divisions each, now comes winter and i want the 4 shock armies going asap, AND, to get lots of those brigades involved, so i guess one has to pull quite a few divisions and even armies out of those critical fronts, how best to do.

kind of a rambling question, good hunting

Post #: 1
RE: red winter offensive - 3/23/2014 5:47:24 PM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
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some general stuff

the mild winter changes all the earlier concepts - so the stuff about Germans having to run back to Poland etc are so much mince. All the reports so far is it produces a brutal tussle, the Germans can even counterattack in Jan (on a limited scale) and Feb can see both sides landing blows. Come the spring mud both sides need a break.

Since the multi-front/multi-army malus is quite nasty and I think you want to tag team the shock armies (ie have 2 operating in concert) you ideally want to create space for a couple in a given front. Where I think depends on your game - if you've lost Leningrad then probably best around Moscow, if you still hold Leningrad the Valdai could yield some nice gains.

As to front loads, the Volga and Moscow MDs can carry some combat load (say 2 armies each plus bits and pieces) and the full activation of Caucausus and Trans-Cauc MDS will give you the capacity for another 4-5 armies. This is a bit contentious, but I don't see much use having combined arms armies reporting to Stavka - you'll need to keep an air command as well to give them air support and, as above, may often hit the multi-front malus.

As to damage, I think you have to decide if there are sensible territorial goals or is it just to kill. You'll not hold anything you take in the Ukraine but obviously pushing west will help give you space for 1942. Around Moscow if you have lost some of the main defensive cities Rzhev-Kaluga-Kalinin, then that is worth regaining if you can as it will make Moscow even tougher as a 1942 target.

If you want to kill, find a weak spot and hammer it, try to open up the front and get the cavalry corps behind their lines. You may well be able to seriously batter a German army (or their allies) so they are pretty useless in 1942.

To me, with the mild blizzard, and a sensible 1941 (ie the Germans haven't won outright nor are they stalled), the winter now is about setting things up for 1942. What I think you want is the Germans so weakened they can only attack in one sector, and then build up Moscow so they go south. And hope. STEF78's AAR is pretty essential reading for what to watch out for.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 3/23/2014 6:48:18 PM >


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RE: red winter offensive - 3/23/2014 8:05:09 PM   
charlie0311

 

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thx loki,

in my haste, i said 12 div/front. i meant per army. then 3 armies/front for 72CPs. 12 divisions gives three per hex over 4 hexes. then another similar army one hex back in reserve. entrenched and with good leadership should be tough to crack.

i have seen the aar you refer to. OMG! That's a good reason to kill.

i propose the "island" tactic. to wit, behind the front, build a fortified island (with airbase). With the new air rules maybe you can resupply such an island, when they get isolated. Don't know how big, enough for a fortified perimeter and some more to attack with, and some space for the isolated refugees. two or three. more or less in the center might be enough. At least it would be harder to reduce than a normal pocket.

maulus is a new one for me, guess it means the problems with too much stuff for the command structure, sigh. i can live with it.

charlie

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 3
RE: red winter offensive - 3/23/2014 10:40:19 PM   
GamesaurusRex


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If playing the Russian side of .11 using mild blizzard and other settings at standard... (and assuming your German opponent is experienced and capable)...

1) Use a HR to disallow the LVOV open on turn one and two... It wasn't historically possible and use of it is exploitation of bad game design.
(otherwise the game will end in a German victory on turn 3... oh, you can play on, but there's no point to it.)

2) Avoid combat and retreat at full throttle on all fronts, only pausing long enough to evacuate the industry. Don't slow down until you're near Moskow, which you should try to defend thru 42. Certainly, you can take advantage of attacking overextended Geman advances, but assuming your German opponent knows what he is doing, he won't give any of that to you. (This is not historical, but is necessary due to bad game modeling of everything during the 41-42 time period.) Forget Leningrad... Get both troops and industry out asap !

3) If using the mild blizzard, this just makes it more imperative that the Russian not waste men and material pursuing counter-attacks that serve no purpose during a period in THIS simulation where the Russian has neither the morale, CV, organization, or troops to waste on pointless attacks. You should spend your resources on reorganizing and building a combat capable army (defined in 41-42 as forming Infantry Corps with a few Cavalry Corp as AP permits) and DIG IN EVERYWHERE IN MULTIPLE LINES ! A capable German player is still going to blow thru these defences in 42, but at least you will have them built, giving you a chance to survive until late 42 or 43 when you can actually begin to play the game because you will have finally assembled enough Infantry Corp to stop the German from just running over you.

4) Don't waste AP on appointing good Generals to poor troops to makes useless attacks. THIS GAME punishes that act by logging the multiple "losses" your appointed Generals are destined to experience due to the totally lopsided morale/combat/CV models applied in the 41-42 period. Save your best leaders from this punishment and use them in 43 when they can start fresh with better morale Corps to command. If your troops hang around to fight in 41-42, your army is going to get kicked around anyway, regardless of what you do, so let your poor commanders take the hit and save your best commanders for the day they can be used. (This is more 'bass ackward' game modelling IMO... but it is what it is...)

5) Don't waste AP on building a bunch of FZs, either. Spend your APs on building Infantry reinforcements (to replace the "missing" historical Russian replacements that the designers of this game left out of the replacement schedules for some reason.) Do otherwise and a capable German will be sunning his troops on the Caspian in 42.

Basically, all of the above is what many on this forum would call "liberal amounts of cheese spread"... try to survive until 43 when it will begin to be possible for the Russian army to engage in combat (according to the game designers of this simulation, anyway...

The good news is that, after a couple of games, you and your opponent can adjust starting game settings to achieve whatever game 'balance' you prefer, making it possible to eventually arrive at a satisfying game experience.

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 3/27/2014 7:40:06 PM >

(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 4
RE: red winter offensive - 3/23/2014 11:53:38 PM   
carlkay58

 

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In response to GamesaurusRex (hereafter referred to GR):

I have been playing this game since it was released. I am also currently play testing War in the West. So here are a few answers to his points that come from more experience:

quote:

1) Use a HR to disallow the LVOV open on turn one and two... It wasn't historically possible and use of it is exploitation of bad game design.
(otherwise the game will end in a German victory on turn 3... oh, you can play on, but there's no point to it.)


The Lvov opening is a fact of life at this time. Also, since you have already started the game, it is a moot point at this time. Soviet players have been dealing with this fact from just about day one with the game, and yet you can find that a majority of the long term AARs show that the Soviets can usually win if they maintain their personal morale. I have had games as the Soviets that I have failed my personal morale check and surrendered the game but the Soviets can recover from some real bad positions and still win in the long term. As the Soviet player you must think of the long term.

quote:


2) Avoid combat and retreat at full throttle on all fronts, only pausing long enough to evacuate the industry. Don't slow down until you're near Moskow, which you should try to defend thru 42. Certainly, you can take advantage of attacking overextended German advances, but assuming your German opponent knows what he is doing, he won't give any of that to you. (This is not historical, but is necessary due to bad game modeling of everything during the 41-42 time period.) Forget Leningrad... Get both troops and industry out asap !


A full runaway defense such as GR proposes is definitely one strategy. With the recent changes, however, the Soviets can stand and fight in special situations. The trick is how to recognize those situations. The war is a war of attrition and the more casualties you inflict on the Axis, the better it is for the Soviets. A tank destroyed in a Soviet counterattack on turn 4 is better than a tank that lives to fight in November or December of 1941. Pick your spot carefully and then hit hard. The best targets are usually those German panzer troops that are far in advance of the main Axis body. Bloody them a time or two and the Axis player will be more cautious in the long run. This will pay off as the Axis ends up less aggressive. Defending Leningrad is hard but should at least be attempted in order to keep the Axis player honest and having to commit fully to trying to capture it.

quote:

3) If using the mild blizzard, this just makes it more imperative that the Russian not waste men and material pursuing counter-attacks that serve no purpose during a period in THIS simulation where the Russian has neither the morale, CV, organization, or troops to waste on pointless attacks. You should spend your resources on reorganizing and building a combat capable army (defined in 41-42 as forming Infantry Corps with a few Cavalry Corp as AP permits) and DIG IN EVERYWHERE IN MULTIPLE LINES ! A capable German player is still going to blow thru these defences in 42, but at least you will have them built, giving you a chance to survive until late 42 or 43 when you can actually begin to play the game because you will have finally assembled enough Infantry Corp to stop the German from just running over you.


A mild blizzard is definitely in the Axis favor. Plan for the blizzard. Concentrate your forces before hand. The proper place to attack is where you need to push back the Axis in preparing for 42. GR is right - the Soviet player is playing for late 42 and later. If you do it right, by the end of 42 you should be on the offensive. This is not always true, but it usually is. The problem the Soviets face at that point is forcing the Axis back fast enough to take Berlin before it is too late.

quote:

4) Don't waste AP on appointing good Generals to poor troops to makes useless attacks. THIS GAME punishes that act by logging the multiple "losses" your appointed Generals are destined to experience due to the totally lopsided morale/combat/CV models applied in the 41-42 period. Save you best leaders from this punishement and use them in 43 when they can start fresh with better morale Corps to command. If your troops hang around to fight in 41-42, your army is going to get kicked around anyway, regardless of what you do, so let your poor commanders take the hit and save your best commanders for the day they can be used. (This is more 'bass ackward' game modelling IMO... but it is what it is...)


I personally do not start changing Soviet leaders until turn 5 or later. By that time the worst has happened and you SHOULD be able to prevent having your front HQs surrounded. At that time leadership survival rates increase dramatically. Be careful where you assign your leaders, critical areas such as Leningrad and Moscow are important. The effect that leaders have on combat is extreme in any Gary Grigsby game. You can ignore the Win/Loss record for leaders to a certain extent. The ratio does influence possible promotions, but the better leaders will tend to be safe from execution.

quote:

5) Don't waste AP on building a bunch of FZs, either. Spend your APs on building Infantry reinforcements (to replace the "missing" historical Russian replacements that the designers of this game left out of the replacement schedules for some reason.) Do otherwise and a capable German will be sunning his troops on the Caspian in 42.


Don't bother building units in 41. You can create SUs (support units) but be careful to watch your ARM PTS. Too many artillery SUs will reduce your ARM pool too quickly. The first unit you should worry about building are Cavalry Corps in December 1941. This will give you some time to get more familiar with the game system and your opponent so you will be able to plan with more information to play with.

Good luck and have fun!

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 5
RE: red winter offensive - 3/24/2014 2:18:33 AM   
GamesaurusRex


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And a couple of comments back to you carl...

1)"The Lvov opening is a fact of life at this time."

It was a historical impossibility. In THIS simulation it is possible only because of overstated first turn German movement capacities, flawed map terrain rendering, and rules that completely ignore the political and weather situation on the Rumanian front at the time. Had it been possible, the Germans would have done it. (A proper HR should limit the German movement of ANY unit south of the Pripyet Marshes to no more than 5 hexes per turn for the first two turns.)

2)"The best targets are usually those German panzer troops that are far in advance of the main Axis body."

A good German player will never let this happen. GOOD = NEVER.

3)"If you do it right, by the end of 42 you should be on the offensive."

I ended 1942 with 9 million Russian men in the field and still holding Moskow and Stalingrad (both of which the German still took by the end of 1942). I did this without attacking anything in the mild blizzard. Had I atttacked in the mild blizzard, I would have lost a lot of men and gained very little. As it was , I lost nearly 3 million more men by the summer of 1943, at which time I finally stopped the Germans at Grozny in the south, the river just behind Stalingrad in the center, and a line between lake Onega and just behind Moskow in the north.
I fail to see what purpose wasting troops and resources in pointless attacks in the blizzard serves. Stalin's ego ?

4)"critical areas such as Leningrad"

Leningrad is an encirclement waiting to happen... They are dead already, if they stay. As for Grigsby's commander mechanism... it's more appropriate to a game of "Chutes and Ladders" IMO.

5)"Don't bother building units in 41"

If you don't... there's nothing to defend with. Even when you do, it's not much better... just more to run with. At least I can agree with your assessment of the Cavalry.



< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 3/29/2014 5:35:57 PM >

(in reply to carlkay58)
Post #: 6
RE: red winter offensive - 3/24/2014 8:53:57 AM   
Gabriel B.

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

v1.07.11

the purpose of this thread is to have massive fun discussing how to organize the red colossus as to do maximum damage to the nazi scum.

i am about 3 months into wite playing v the ai. Now i have one pbem going v human,i am sov, only t1.

i have seen all the old posts. One wonders how and if they apply to .11 version. Probably way to much to cover it all, but anything might be useful.

i see way too many armies to get them into the front/md command structure. So i would guess they use stravka, as kind of another front.

i am particularly concerned about where to put the shock armies that arrive in nov/dec. Maybe leaving space for them in bryansk and kalinin fronts is a good idea.

if, say, kalinin front, were already full. If you send one of kalinin front armies to stravka, so you can put a shock army in its place, well ok, but massive ap cost?

the general question is: making a good fight for leningrad and moscow will require packing north, northwest, kalinin, bryansk fronts with 12 divisions each, now comes winter and i want the 4 shock armies going asap, AND, to get lots of those brigades involved, so i guess one has to pull quite a few divisions and even armies out of those critical fronts, how best to do.

kind of a rambling question, good hunting





4 shock armies under stavka , 4 combined arms in each front (40), 8 in the Moskow and Volga Md ,for 52 total as of february 1942.



(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 7
RE: red winter offensive - 3/24/2014 4:45:02 PM   
Schmart

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

And a couple of comments back to you carl...

1)"The Lvov opening is a fact of life at this time."

It was a historical impossibility. In THIS simulation it is possible only because of overstated first turn German movement capacities, flawed map terrain rendering, and rules that completely ignore the political and weather situation on the Rumanian front at the time. Had it been possible, the Germans would have done it. (A proper HR should limit the German movement of ANY unit south of the Pripyet Marshes to no more than 5 hexes per turn for the first two turns.)


The Lvov opening isn't the best result in the game and the developers have made some changes to limit it's effects. Future game versions I think could reduce it further. On the other side, games rarely see a Kiev like pocket later in the 1941 campaign, so it's a little bit of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Again, the Lvov pocket isn't the best result for the game, but take your pick: Do you want a Lvov pocket or a Kiev pocket?

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 8
RE: red winter offensive - 3/24/2014 5:31:36 PM   
charlie0311

 

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hi gab,

read your post re 4 shock armies....., almost said something that would have invoked the green button.

what would be in these shock armies, the CU (combat units), don't bother with su.

four combined arms (armies?) in each front (40), what does the 40 refer to?

8 in the moscow and volga MD, 8 what?, armies? 24 CP, command capacity, per MD, how are 8 armies gonna be only 24 CPs

for a total of 52. Huh? 40 + 8 + 8 = 56. Like totally, dude

charlie

(in reply to Schmart)
Post #: 9
RE: red winter offensive - 3/24/2014 7:12:28 PM   
loki100


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Something to think about is the Shock Army gives the unit within it a 5 pt bonus on morale. Now given that most Soviet rifle divisions in December 41 are going to be around 42-45 that is a huge difference. Probably worth +1 on CV and the capacity to keep a decent CV despite some fatigue.

Now you get around 6 rifle divisions mixed in with the Siberian units that reflects the elite units the Soviets kept on the Japanese frontier. These have a morale of around 60 (can't remember exactly). There are also 2 (3?) rifle divisions in SW Front - I think in one of the corps attached to 6A with morale > 50.

If you build one of your shock armies around that lot, you can probably get 9-11 CV in a hex, with a good commander you'll get reasonably MP. That gives you one army in the winter counterattack that can really take ground, and cope with losses/fatigue without collapsing to 1 CV.

It takes some discipline to find those divisions and keep them out the line (in my current game I managed to hold onto 5 of them, the rest ended up being committed early). You also start with quite a lot of heavy artillery (mortars, heavy guns etc) in the Fronts/Stavka. I'd populate the Shock Armies with those. If they have been in the rear, they should have a decent ToE despite other problems with armaments.

In combination with the high morale rifle divisions, I think you can generate 2 Shock Armies that are your elite. The other 2 will have to make do (but the +5 morale helps). You get the 5th in late 42.

I don't like putting combat armies under Stavka. I realise the logic, especially for the Tank Armies but its pretty unrealistic as the few times the Soviets did that (around Tikhvin) in late 41 it was a disaster. But then the AP cost for rotating armies in/out Stavka-Front is too high to do what the Soviets did historically. So ...

but it is worth some micro management to get the best rifle divisions into your Shock Armies. If you then add 3 tank brigades, those brigades should get a decent number of victories as reserve reactions (as you have your best commanders in charge) and may get close to Gds status when you come to form up the Tank Corps.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

The Lvov opening isn't the best result in the game and the developers have made some changes to limit it's effects. Future game versions I think could reduce it further. On the other side, games rarely see a Kiev like pocket later in the 1941 campaign, so it's a little bit of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Again, the Lvov pocket isn't the best result for the game, but take your pick: Do you want a Lvov pocket or a Kiev pocket?


I agree completely, you need something to create the secondary pockets or you end with the wall of steel outcome which is as ridiculous as some of the axis exploits.

At the very least if an axis player agrees to no Lvov, the Soviet player should agree not to remove SW/S Front formations from the Ukraine. In my current game with SigUp, partly for fun, partly as a test, we agreed no-Lvov, no Ukraine evacuation and I tried a very active defense. In truth by December 1941 my prisoner losses were pretty close to what happens in Lvov + run games - just genuinely think it was more interesting to get there by a series of smaller pockets that happened in the natural flow of our game.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 3/24/2014 8:17:19 PM >


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RE: red winter offensive - 3/24/2014 8:00:50 PM   
morvael


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No bonus to morale from Shock and Guards. Only +1 Admin.

< Message edited by morvael -- 3/24/2014 9:01:08 PM >

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Post #: 11
RE: red winter offensive - 3/24/2014 8:33:26 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

No bonus to morale from Shock and Guards. Only +1 Admin.



you're right sorry ... was looking at an older version of the manual.

still think gathering your few high morale rifle divisions together is a sound idea though and the admin bonus helps with movement and reserve activation?

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RE: red winter offensive - 3/24/2014 8:55:42 PM   
morvael


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Admin rolls help with (air-related admin rolls not included):
a) armament cost of generic supply conversion to ammo
b) Soviet ammo loss
c) getting more supply under beachhead supply
d) truck needs
e) movement points
f) combat value in blizzard (German only)
g) fort construction
h) supply consumption
i) repairing damaged elements
j) reducing chance for element damage when moving
k) reassigning units to other HQs at lower AP cost

Doesn't help with reserve activation though (aside from the fact that unit with more MP can react in greater range).

< Message edited by morvael -- 3/24/2014 9:58:22 PM >

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RE: red winter offensive - 3/24/2014 10:20:08 PM   
charlie0311

 

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hi guys,

great stuff.

loki, you are right on the money as far as discussing the subject matter. I think the idea of rotating
armies in and out of active fronts is a good one and even something the developers had in mind. It also goes well with my idea about fortified islands (not really an island, but a substantial group of hexes) with a fortified perimeter.

morvael, you seem to be the ONE, I've seen some of your other stuff. Aren't you the guy who did the whole mild blizzard thing? Maybe you should give that extra morale back to shock and guard. Seems to me shock armies and guard status meant more, a lot more, than better logistics (that's what the +1 admin effect you listed basically amounts to).

On this whole thing about morale. Allied moral as a whole went up with American entry into war, up again after Midway, way up when Moscow held winter 41 (nobody expected this). Soviet in particular, went up when lend lease actually started showing up. The poor Soviet performance in early 41 (hence the big morale differential in the game) was due to the purge of the officer corps in the 30's and the hatred many russians felt toward stalin, that's why so many became hiwis. My point here is that russian nat morale should be equal to german by say jan 41. Guard should be equal to ss (gasp!, blasphemy).

i hope you guys are amused by my ranting.

charlie


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Post #: 14
RE: red winter offensive - 3/24/2014 11:27:36 PM   
randallw

 

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'Morale' in the game is different from the general definition of morale.

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RE: red winter offensive - 3/25/2014 7:15:12 AM   
charlie0311

 

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i had been planning to cultivate guards and use them in the shock armies. I can put that theory to rest now.

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 16
RE: red winter offensive - 3/25/2014 7:16:15 AM   
Gabriel B.

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

hi gab,

read your post re 4 shock armies....., almost said something that would have invoked the green button.

what would be in these shock armies, the CU (combat units), don't bother with su.

four combined arms (armies?) in each front (40), what does the 40 refer to?

8 in the moscow and volga MD, 8 what?, armies? 24 CP, command capacity, per MD, how are 8 armies gonna be only 24 CPs

for a total of 52. Huh? 40 + 8 + 8 = 56. Like totally, dude

charlie



4 shock armies stawka
4 armies in each front times 10 fronts= 40 armies
4 armies in Volga+ 4 armies in Moskow = 8 armies

total : 4 + 40 + 8 = 52 armies .

I hope it's clear now , and yes the MD are owerloaded but i would rather owerload them
than a front that will take the fight to berlin .


(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 17
RE: red winter offensive - 3/25/2014 11:12:34 AM   
cpt flam


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you are better to remember that your armies will have 16 CP come winter
no real need to build new units only support until 42
you can put ART, AT and AA to 50 TOE to limit the cost of replacement (ARM points)
otherwise come october you will not have much
you can change in beginning of your turn to see fuel in german "motorised" units
this will tell you the need to retreat

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Post #: 18
RE: red winter offensive - 3/25/2014 3:36:52 PM   
Gabriel B.

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311
what would be in these shock armies, the CU (combat units), don't bother with su.
charlie


missed this part .

3 cavalry corps +2 mountain divisions .

(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 19
RE: red winter offensive - 3/25/2014 4:46:06 PM   
charlie0311

 

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gab, looks like you use stravka as a combat front, not for me, high command don't do operations in my book. IMHO.

flam, CP of 16 (armies) in winter, pls explain further, with relevant dates.

anybody who cares to listen, "he who gives success in battle is valued above all others" line from Lawrence of Arabia".

randal said morale is different in the game than a general definition of morale. Everything in the game, everything, is different from real war. So what, we're all armchair general types playing around with unreal simulations, for fun.

I mentioned a few events, important events, that had effect on morale, public morale and armed forces morale. Just an opinion, I say not, just imagine. 1) the US fleet goes to the bottom at Midway 2) Moscow falls in 41 3) no lend lease for you guys(reds). i know #3 may not seem all that important, but lend lease meant guns, lots of guns, (spare the remarks about the other stuff, oh please). Fire power decides the outcome of battles, nothing else, nothing.

my opinion is that the game would be better ie, more fun, if the morale in the game followed somewhat the historical events (oops i used the dreaded h word).

I left out some other important events 1) Stalingrad, after that everybody knew that the Germans would sooner or later be toast and 2) the allied bombing campaign. Goering himself is supposed to have said he knew the war was lost when he saw the first Lancasters over Berlin.

I'm ranting, again! Put that morale back, put it back, into shock and guards. Tweak something else for balance.

Left something out. No officer purge. Stalin doesn't murder and starve all those people in the Ukraine. Same outcome early 41, uh no...\

charlie

(in reply to Gabriel B.)
Post #: 20
RE: red winter offensive - 3/26/2014 8:32:48 AM   
cpt flam


Posts: 2346
Joined: 1/16/2011
From: caen - France
Status: offline
part of mistake on my part
from 6/41 to 8/41 24 CP as you are
9/41 to 3/42 will be 21 CP and after you fall to 18 CP
hope this will help you

_____________________________


(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 21
RE: red winter offensive - 3/26/2014 8:58:21 AM   
Gabriel B.

 

Posts: 501
Joined: 6/24/2013
Status: offline
MD did not do operations either , but it's not posible to respect historical orbat without fighting at a major disadvantage .

For instance Western front in early january had 10 armies and 90 division equivalents , that would put it 100 comand points over
command limit in game terms.
Also the administrative cost of reasigning armies from one front to another is rather high.
I accept the fact ,that i am going to be overloaded in the first year no matter what, (soviet command and control took longer to adapt and overcome ) and build up my fronts with the 81 Cp limit in mind, that gives room for 4 combined arms armies plus 1 air army.

< Message edited by Gabriel B. -- 3/26/2014 10:06:18 AM >

(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 22
RE: red winter offensive - 3/26/2014 12:41:13 PM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 942
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline
thx gab,

my taste doesn't matter. i'm just searching for the best way to stop the german juggernaut. I haven't found the reason for using the using combined arms armies. You say?

I'm looking to do some real damage, first winter. Since shock and guard have been emasculated that leaves, i guess, just a kind of "everywhere" offensive.

How long does 1-1 count as 2-1?

charlie

(in reply to Gabriel B.)
Post #: 23
RE: red winter offensive - 3/26/2014 4:57:53 PM   
GamesaurusRex


Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

No bonus to morale from Shock and Guards. Only +1 Admin.


LOL... I was about to comment on that fact, but you beat me to it.

Like many of the comments posted on this forum by the "experts" regarding this game... their opinions are tainted by out of date patch "experience".

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 24
RE: red winter offensive - 3/26/2014 5:04:08 PM   
GamesaurusRex


Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Admin rolls help with (air-related admin rolls not included):
a) armament cost of generic supply conversion to ammo
b) Soviet ammo loss
c) getting more supply under beachhead supply
d) truck needs
e) movement points
f) combat value in blizzard (German only)
g) fort construction
h) supply consumption
i) repairing damaged elements
j) reducing chance for element damage when moving
k) reassigning units to other HQs at lower AP cost

Doesn't help with reserve activation though (aside from the fact that unit with more MP can react in greater range).


In other words.. a bunch of irrelevent crap that has no where near the impact on combat outcome that the morale bonus did... i.e. it was just another nerf making the Shock Armies no different than the others..

I agree with charlie0311 about the Shock Armies.

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 3/29/2014 5:40:25 PM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 25
RE: red winter offensive - 3/26/2014 5:10:10 PM   
GamesaurusRex


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Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

i had been planning to cultivate guards and use them in the shock armies. I can put that theory to rest now.


You can forget cultivating Guards units now because Morvael "fixed" the broken code that was crediting double wins to the Russians without making any adjustments to the number of wins required for unit status, so now it is twice as hard to develop them. If the German player is careful about not yielding cheap "wins", he can thwart Guard development.

(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 26
RE: red winter offensive - 3/26/2014 5:27:48 PM   
GamesaurusRex


Posts: 505
Joined: 10/13/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

thx gab,

my taste doesn't matter. i'm just searching for the best way to stop the german juggernaut. I haven't found the reason for using the using combined arms armies. You say?

I'm looking to do some real damage, first winter. Since shock and guard have been emasculated that leaves, i guess, just a kind of "everywhere" offensive.

How long does 1-1 count as 2-1?

charlie


LOL... I understand your puzzlement. The problem does not lie with your understanding of history. The problem is that the game designers did not provide you with many game resources to oppose the German forces until late 42 at the earliest, and some that they did provide were subsequently nerfed. As the Russian, you can't afford to fight forward until late 42. If you do, you will get run over.

As for the 1:1>2:1 rule, I think it ends in 42 ?

< Message edited by GamesaurusRex -- 3/26/2014 6:31:57 PM >

(in reply to charlie0311)
Post #: 27
RE: red winter offensive - 3/26/2014 7:53:49 PM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 942
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline
v.11 random weather..no locked hq..no FOW...no reduced blizzard...YES, normal for options.

axis winter line vs ai.

diagonal from the "c" city in the north, east of all that swamp, to the "c" city about 10 hexes east of moscow, then south to rostov. a solid line of level 3 FZ. You can get to level 3 by pushing east of this line and then using a regimental screen of armor, mot, the inf scheduled for early withdraw, the rum armor, maybe a little more. The screen aids the digging. two pioneers per corp hq.

then the big (ai) attack. 4 attacks all winter, 2 successful, i lost 1 hex (ONE !!!!).

Moravel, sorry i misspelled, are you listening? Competent opponent, random weather, FOW, gonna get the same thing, just not as far in.

Gamorex, you're the one who is right.

charlie

(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 28
RE: red winter offensive - 3/26/2014 7:55:21 PM   
loki100


Posts: 7434
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

No bonus to morale from Shock and Guards. Only +1 Admin.


LOL... I was about to comment on that fact, but you beat me to it.

Like many of the comments posted on this forum by the "experts" regarding this game... their opinions are tainted by out of date patch "experience".


Hi

no, I don't claim to be an expert and do indeed make mistakes and misunderstand things. This was one of them.

However, despite learning (& as of now trying to master the German side), my experience of the game is very different to yours.

I have no problem with you disagreeing with everyone else, or extrapolating from your experience to assume that is 'how it is', however, as with views on Pelton, what I don't have much time for is being deliberatly rude. You accuse people who manage to get different outcomes to you as cheating, when it maybe they have found a way to use the game tools that you are missing.

Issues of judgement, such as when to build tank corps, how best to use them ... you have your opinion, others have theirs - but if you hear something you disagree with, it may *just* be an idea to stop and think why they are suggesting that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GamesaurusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: charlie0311

thx gab,

my taste doesn't matter. i'm just searching for the best way to stop the german juggernaut. I haven't found the reason for using the using combined arms armies. You say?

I'm looking to do some real damage, first winter. Since shock and guard have been emasculated that leaves, i guess, just a kind of "everywhere" offensive.

How long does 1-1 count as 2-1?

charlie


LOL... I understand your puzzlement. The problem does not lie with your understanding of history. The problem is that the game designers did not provide you with many game resources to oppose the German forces until late 42 at the earliest, and some that they did provide were subsequently nerfed. As the Russian, you can't afford to fight forward until late 42. If you do, you will get run over.

As for the 1:1>2:1 rule, I think it ends in 42 ?


2-1 rule goes at the end of Jan 42, of course the ability to maximise the actual odds via mass attacks is for the entire game, so you can still deliver counterblows with a shown CV of around 1-1 after that date.

as to your comment re shock armies, even if the only advantage was the higher likelihood of higher MPs, that counts for a lot, esp when Soviet infantry morale is in the mid-40s.

I'll pass on the advice you have had plentifully, play the axis side, it will improve your understanding of how chucking small bits of grit into the Wehrmacht juggernaut can make a daunting task suddenly seen beyond attainment.

_____________________________


(in reply to GamesaurusRex)
Post #: 29
RE: red winter offensive - 3/27/2014 6:45:53 PM   
charlie0311

 

Posts: 942
Joined: 12/20/2013
Status: offline
thx everyone, for all the responses.

It might be interesting to have the computer decide what the winter effects would be. Might start just horrible or could be catastrophic. Might change every 2 weeks or so, for better or even worse.

IMO, the winter should affect the germans a lot more than the russkies.

charlie

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 30
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