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Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 1:51:57 PM   
USSLockwood

 

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I am interested in this game but I am concerned about reports of Tiger tanks at Stalingrad, to say nothing of vampires and werewolves. Is
this a East front simulation or a 'beer and pretzels' game? A fast and fun game has it's place, it's just not what I'm looking for.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 2:04:34 PM   
Barthheart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: doktor

I am interested in this game but I am concerned about reports of Tiger tanks at Stalingrad, to say nothing of vampires and werewolves. Is
this a East front simulation or a 'beer and pretzels' game? A fast and fun game has it's place, it's just not what I'm looking for.


This is not a simulation. It's a fast paced squad level tactical combat game. There are some fun units in the campaigns as Mark Walker, the creator, is also a writer and likes to tell a story.

The Tiger tanks only show up in the stand alone scenarios that take place at other times/places than Stalingrad. The campaigns are based in and around Stalingrad.

It's more than beer & pretzels but not a bullet counting simulation.


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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 2:15:36 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Just as a note - Tigers are not in Stalingrad, but they are in the game. The game outside the campaigns covers more ground than just Stalingrad, it's Eastern Front mid-war based.

There are also some optional scenarios and fun units - you are not required to play with these, they are effectively easter eggs put in by the development team for fun and because Mark also makes some great games that are not purely historical.

In short, if you want a historical wargame, here it is, but historical does not preclude fun or fast-paced.

Regards,

- Erik


< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 2/19/2014 3:15:57 PM >


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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 2:35:14 PM   
markhwalker


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What?! Werewolves? There aren't any werewolves in this game. Not.a.single.one. You're thinking of the "Monster" scenario that I designed for the board game.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 5:48:58 PM   
fentum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

What?! Werewolves? There aren't any werewolves in this game. Not.a.single.one. You're thinking of the "Monster" scenario that I designed for the board game.



But there ARE vampires, right????


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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 5:57:56 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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We can neither confirm nor deny that.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 6:00:00 PM   
markhwalker


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quote:

But there ARE vampires, right????


Only if you want there to be. I mean, come on, who has ever heard of a Romanian vampire. Oh yeah, there was that whole Impaler thing.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 6:08:50 PM   
fentum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: doktor

I am interested in this game but I am concerned about reports of Tiger tanks at Stalingrad, to say nothing of vampires and werewolves. Is
this a East front simulation or a 'beer and pretzels' game? A fast and fun game has it's place, it's just not what I'm looking for.



Herr Doktor,

Es tut mir leid.

I may have been guilty of introducing elements of folklore into the forums.

THIS IS A PROPER WARGAME.

There exists a LnL boardgame called All Things Zombie, but I am referencing that for fun. I believe that there may be one or two unusual units in the PC counter mix, but you can ignore them.

THIS IS A PROPER WARGAME.

Regards,

Fentum


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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 6:24:01 PM   
chemkid

 

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.

< Message edited by chemkid -- 4/26/2018 6:07:38 AM >


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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 6:42:41 PM   
z1812


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I consider myself a serious wargamer. Just having bought the game 2 days ago I have finished the tutorials and I like what I see so far. There are some elements I am unsure of and will have to gain a better understanding of before forming a proper opinion.

However at this scale, already the detail I see is more than what is available in any other board type PC game. For instance the ability to button or unbutton a tank. To turn the tank turret. To set up and exchange crewed weapons. Heroic action and the like.

If the scenarios play out as I hope they will, then I will be quite satisfied............even if there is no area fire

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 6:45:49 PM   
JD Smith43


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This is a good wargame. Much like THE BOARDGAME WHICH MUST NOT BE MENTIONED it has the capability to get up a broad range of scenarios. Hopefully future expansions will add more nations, maps, and options.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 7:21:10 PM   
ioticus

 

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I really like the LnL system and have played the board game a few times. I like my PC board game ports to be 100% copies of the rules of the board game with no changes. Is this a 100% port with no mechanics changes?

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 7:24:21 PM   
Tom Proudfoot


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We should make a list at some point. It's not much:

- Snipers are placed by the scenario, not interruption moves by player
- New flanking fire modifier

That's all I remember. Barthheart can probably remind me if there are any others.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 7:27:12 PM   
Barthheart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Proudfoot

We should make a list at some point. It's not much:

- Snipers are placed by the scenario, not interruption moves by player
- New flanking fire modifier

That's all I remember. Barthheart can probably remind me if there are any others.



Hidden units - enemy units that none of your units have an LoS to are not shown on the map.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 7:34:48 PM   
jzardos


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IMO, to be brief. This game is AWESOME!! Being able to play out of the box without any major issues! Oh let's not forget the fantastic graphics and incredible (never ending) fun factor. Best money I have spent on game in years.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 7:36:27 PM   
ioticus

 

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If that's all the changes there are it doesn't sound too bad. I still wish there were an option to get a 100% board game experience though.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 7:52:48 PM   
Hrothgar


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I realize that one who is familiar with the board game may have developed an attachment to the way things work there. However, from everything I understand, the changes are minimal. Why would one want to be able to see enemy units which are not visible to one's own? The change to the sniper implementation certainly can't have much impact. So, that leaves flanking fire. This is surely a welcome decision, and, like the hidden units, simply taking advantage of the different possibilities of computer games.

I would think that any LnL veteran would feel right at home with this game.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/19/2014 8:21:26 PM   
SilliusSodus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ioticus

If that's all the changes there are it doesn't sound too bad. I still wish there were an option to get a 100% board game experience though.

As another fan of the board game I do share the sentiment. However this is extremely close to the board game. I don't think any fan of the board game would be disappointed definitely worth getting

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/20/2014 2:48:06 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: doktor
Is this a East front simulation or a 'beer and pretzels' game? A fast and fun game has it's place, it's just not what I'm looking for.


This game is certainly fast and fun, and not a simulation. I'm on the fence as to whether I consider it a "real wargame", but it certainly has a lot of nice touches.

As far as mechanics, each player takes turns moving/firing/laying smoke, etc. and I'm not yet sure if I'm a fan of this mechanic, as once a unit fires against one unit, it is helpless against following units. But it definitely makes for some interesting decisions!

And no dig on the devs (its actually intended as a complement), while the mechanics are very different from ASL, and it is much simpler than ASL, it is also similar in many ways and provides many of the same thrills.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/20/2014 5:37:01 AM   
Grotius


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I suppose there is a spectrum from "beer and pretzels" to "hardcore grognard sim". This is closer to the grognard end of the spectrum, in my opinion, even if it's not as hardcore as some titles. It "feels" more like ASL or Combat Commander than Panzer Corps, at least to me.

As the previous poster mentioned, turn-based gameplay tends to make for a chesslike experience. On a pure gameplay level, I love that experience -- I prefer it to the real-time model, even if real-time is more "realistic." Besides, a good turn-based engine can represent reality pretty well. Moreover, LnL a platform for further scenario and campaign development, and in that respect (as in others) it does call to mind ASL or Combat Commander.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/20/2014 7:39:27 AM   
e_barkmann


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I'd be interested to read z1812's thoughts on the game after a few days...

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/20/2014 10:59:32 AM   
markhwalker


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quote:

even if there is no area fire


Ha, well-played.

quote:

THE BOARDGAME WHICH MUST NOT BE MENTIONED

LOL,you're learning

quote:

This game is certainly fast and fun, and not a simulation.

Yes it is. What it is not is a simulation of wargame simulations. What it IS is a simulation of the chaos of conflict. What I did not do is design a game so that owners of THE BOARDGAME WHICH MUST NOT BE MENTIONED could run down their checklist of features as compare it to LnL. What I did do is design a game that models chaos, cowardice, bravery, and the human element. The stuff that war turns on. Not calibers, armor thickness, or area fire.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/20/2014 11:19:11 AM   
z1812


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quote:

ORIGINAL: markhwalker
Not calibers, armor thickness, or area fire.


My goodness, area fire mentioned in the same breath as calibers and armour thickness?.........It must really exist.........

< Message edited by z1812 -- 2/20/2014 12:20:00 PM >

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/20/2014 2:16:46 PM   
TheWombat

 

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There are many ways to do a simulation. Chess, with its very abstract approach and units, is a simulation. SteelBeasts is a simulation, though it's very different from chess. A designer has to choose which things she or he simulates, and what approaches to use. By necessity, some things get simulated well, some not so well, and some not at all. Even gargantuan games like WitE generate volumes of posting discussing gaps in the simulation or perceived problems of fidelity.

Everyone has their own threshold of simulation goodness. For some, this feature or that rule is essential, and any game that doesn't have these fails to pass muster. For others, those same features are not required, but a third feature or rule is. There is no universal standard for an acceptable level of simulation.

For me, the best way to approach all these games is to take them as they are, and treat them as simulations of certain aspects of war, rather than as all-encompassing models of all aspects of whichever scale of warfare they are working with. Above all, I like to look holistically at the game--does it, overall, deliver a believable and satisfying representation of the subject, where the player's decisions can be based on reasonable assumptions and where good decisions are rewarded and bad ones punished? Does it capture the essence of the time period and scale of the conflict? Does it, ultimately, teach generally believable lessons about the conflict? Beyond that, eh, it's all gravy.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/20/2014 4:27:57 PM   
markhwalker


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well said, Wombat.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/20/2014 5:58:41 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheWombat

There are many ways to do a simulation. Chess, with its very abstract approach and units, is a simulation. SteelBeasts is a simulation, though it's very different from chess. A designer has to choose which things she or he simulates, and what approaches to use. By necessity, some things get simulated well, some not so well, and some not at all. Even gargantuan games like WitE generate volumes of posting discussing gaps in the simulation or perceived problems of fidelity.

Everyone has their own threshold of simulation goodness. For some, this feature or that rule is essential, and any game that doesn't have these fails to pass muster. For others, those same features are not required, but a third feature or rule is. There is no universal standard for an acceptable level of simulation.

For me, the best way to approach all these games is to take them as they are, and treat them as simulations of certain aspects of war, rather than as all-encompassing models of all aspects of whichever scale of warfare they are working with. Above all, I like to look holistically at the game--does it, overall, deliver a believable and satisfying representation of the subject, where the player's decisions can be based on reasonable assumptions and where good decisions are rewarded and bad ones punished? Does it capture the essence of the time period and scale of the conflict? Does it, ultimately, teach generally believable lessons about the conflict? Beyond that, eh, it's all gravy.



Quite brilliant and a feeling I share as well. I buy a lot of games. I MEAN A LOT. Some good. Others not, but very few are actually fun to play. To me this game is extremely enjoyable. Refreshingly so. Yes it makes sense. Yes there are abstractions. Yes it strikes a good balance and yes, it is fun.

What more can one expect from their purchasing dollars? I feel mine have been well spent on this occasion.

mo reb

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/20/2014 7:29:31 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: markhwalker
What I did do is design a game that models chaos, cowardice, bravery, and the human element. The stuff that war turns on. Not calibers, armor thickness, or area fire.

Well I would agree with you there (other than area fire...).

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/20/2014 7:44:30 PM   
markhwalker


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quote:

Well I would agree with you there (other than area fire...).


Okay, then we can agree to disagree.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/21/2014 10:24:03 AM   
fran52


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Reading all this discussion i say that this game could be a good base for a simulation.Also ASL could not be a simulation,some compromise must be adopted to save the playability.If simulation mean real time game ,i hate real time because is not possible to have a control of all units in the same time.What like me in LnL,that could be for others a boredom,is the dices role.In this way you can,like a normal board game,understand why your unit has success or not in his action.Other PC wargames have all this data hidden and is difficult to understand what is better to do to win a battle.

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RE: Serious wargame? - 2/21/2014 4:20:59 PM   
markhwalker


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quote:

What like me in LnL,that could be for others a boredom,is the dices role.In this way you can,like a normal board game,understand why your unit has success or not in his action.Other PC wargames have all this data hidden and is difficult to understand what is better to do to win a battle.


Yes, that is what Tom and I thought too.

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