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tender rearm cost question - 2/11/2014 11:53:34 AM   
AirGriff


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The manual states that a tender can rearm a device so long as the device rearm cost is less than the tender cargo capacity. Is this a cumulative number of all the devices to be rearmed (similar to the supply cost required), or does it just look at an individual device and then allow all the guns to be reloaded?

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RE: tender rearm cost question - 2/11/2014 2:10:26 PM   
jay102

 

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The cargo capacity of the biggest AE/AKE is about 6K, and the rearm cost of a single 16in naval gun is about 4-5k. So I think it's somewhat self-explanatory. If the cumulative cost is looked, we won't have that many tenders to do the job.

< Message edited by jay102 -- 2/11/2014 3:13:54 PM >

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RE: tender rearm cost question - 2/11/2014 3:33:30 PM   
AirGriff


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I would tend to agree, but in my last game as Allied I couldn't rearm a 14" gun BB with an AKE--needed an AE. I can't remember the exact reason why, which is why I went digging in the manual. The manual implies the AKE could do it, but my experience says otherwise, and I vaguely remember their being some note somewhere about it. Not a big deal for Allied side, since I always had plenty of AE's to sprinkle around, but IJ is only allowed AKE's. This is my first game as IJ, and I've been slow to realize what a big deal this is--ports expand at a glacial rate with their lack of engineers and dozers, so tenders are desperately needed.

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RE: tender rearm cost question - 2/11/2014 3:42:36 PM   
Don Bowen


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Late in the war, AEs were equipped for transfer of ammunition to ships at sea. Prior to that, AEs could only transfer to ships when they were alongside in a port.

The only difference between AE and AKE is this late war underway rearmament.

AEs and AKEs come in all sizes, with only the larger ones having the capability of handling the shells for the really big guns. We wanted to allow small AE/AKE for rearmament of smaller warships without creating a "cheat" where an incredibly small ship could handle the largest ammo. This was implemented using the total cargo capacity.

In this regard, total cargo capacity stands in for the magazine size and protection, cranes and elevators, hatch sizes, deck reinforcement, and all the other items involved in carrying and issuing ammunition.

This check on total cargo capacity is in addition to the supply requirement for actual issue of ammunition.

Basically, total cargo capacity indicates the ability to carry ammunition of a certain size and supply on board indicates if any ammunition is actually being carried.

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RE: tender rearm cost question - 2/11/2014 3:54:15 PM   
AirGriff


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That's pretty darned clever. You guys are sheer geniuses! So, the supply on board the ship must also comply with the supply reload requirement as well as the rearm cost of the largest weapon? The supply in the port doesn't matter at all if using a tender? If that's the case, then that might explain why the small AKE wouldn't rearm a large caliber gunned ship with lots of guns (or torpedoes). It wouldn't be the rearm cost that's usually the issue, but the supply required not being on board the tender, yes?

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RE: tender rearm cost question - 2/11/2014 6:01:29 PM   
jay102

 

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yes load tenders with supply first, apparently a empty tender can't rearm anything. Apart from supply, tenders also have limit OPs per day, all rearming action consume certain amount of OPs. So you can't rearm a whole fleet with a single tender in a single day even if carrying unlimited supply.

< Message edited by jay102 -- 2/11/2014 7:05:41 PM >

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RE: tender rearm cost question - 2/11/2014 9:27:22 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Late in the war, AEs were equipped for transfer of ammunition to ships at sea. Prior to that, AEs could only transfer to ships when they were alongside in a port.

The only difference between AE and AKE is this late war underway rearmament.

AEs and AKEs come in all sizes, with only the larger ones having the capability of handling the shells for the really big guns. We wanted to allow small AE/AKE for rearmament of smaller warships without creating a "cheat" where an incredibly small ship could handle the largest ammo. This was implemented using the total cargo capacity.

In this regard, total cargo capacity stands in for the magazine size and protection, cranes and elevators, hatch sizes, deck reinforcement, and all the other items involved in carrying and issuing ammunition.

This check on total cargo capacity is in addition to the supply requirement for actual issue of ammunition.

Basically, total cargo capacity indicates the ability to carry ammunition of a certain size and supply on board indicates if any ammunition is actually being carried.



what would keep a small ship to transport 18" shells? Wouldn't even barge be able to move a couple of them around? What was so special about these ships?

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RE: tender rearm cost question - 2/11/2014 10:09:48 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AirGriff

I would tend to agree, but in my last game as Allied I couldn't rearm a 14" gun BB with an AKE--needed an AE. I can't remember the exact reason why, which is why I went digging in the manual. The manual implies the AKE could do it, but my experience says otherwise, and I vaguely remember their being some note somewhere about it. Not a big deal for Allied side, since I always had plenty of AE's to sprinkle around, but IJ is only allowed AKE's. This is my first game as IJ, and I've been slow to realize what a big deal this is--ports expand at a glacial rate with their lack of engineers and dozers, so tenders are desperately needed.


In a nutshell look at table 20.1.2.2 on p 284 of the manual. So, you have a rearm cost column and then the port sizes. In order for an AE/AKE to reload a 14" BB it needs a load capacity of 3180 (minimum) for the Allies. For the IJN a 36cm (approx. 14') requires a vessel with a load capacity of 2970. Insert the reason why these numbers are chosen here, but there it is. Oh, and the rearm vessels must be loaded.

BTW you say you just started a game as Japan, look at those Yamatos. They have a reload cost of 6440 and the largest vessel that I've been able to find for the IJN has a load capacity of 4990 (as an AKE, remember convert a ship and load sizes change), not gonna work. Now I don't know if Japan doesn't have any bigger, I'm just saying I can't find 'em. So if that's the case and you want to use these monsters in the SE (Solomons area) you'll need a size 7 port with 188 naval support to reload your 46cm cannon. Any port smaller than that and you need boatloads of naval support. Only two ports in that area that can get there Truk and Rabaul (unless you want to go running around in OZ and New Caledonia). Just an FYI if you haven't already looked.

Oh, one other thing if you don't already know. A smaller vessel will load smaller arms, like secondary guns and AA up to its rearm capacity. At least this way you won't be running around totally naked.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 2/12/2014 3:06:39 AM >

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RE: tender rearm cost question - 2/12/2014 1:49:59 AM   
AirGriff


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Yes, I was indeed looking at those bigger ships and all the reload requirements. Definitely a more challenging problem for the IJ. Thanks for the replies all!

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RE: tender rearm cost question - 2/12/2014 2:00:38 AM   
Alfred

 

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Look up the link provided in my post in this thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3491611&mpage=1&key=rearming&#3496065

Alfred

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RE: tender rearm cost question - 2/12/2014 11:35:22 AM   
AirGriff


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That's EXACTLY what I was looking for. Thanks Alfred, I took the liberty of copy and pasting most of your post from that thread.

Alfred's verbiage below:
Some clarifications are in order.

1. Commencing 1 January 1945, AE type vessels which are in a Replenishment TF, can rearm from their "cargo" hold, ships in other task forces whilst at sea.

2. AKE and TK type vessels can never rearm and refuel respectively from their "cargo" holds, ships in other task forces whilst at sea. The same restriction applies to AE type vessels prior to 1 January 1945.

3. AKE and TK type vessels must be at a base (ditto for AE prior to 1 January 1945) in order to rearm and refuel respectively from their "cargo" holds other ships in a task force currently at that base (it need not be docked). The AKE/TK may be either disbanded in the port or in a task force. Ships in other task forces which wish to replenish from the AKE/TK either select:

(a) replenish from port, if the AKE/TK are disbanded in port, or
(b) replenish at sea, if the AKE/TK are in a task force

4. AE/AKE can replenish all weapon systems (except mines), subject to having a sufficient internal cargo hold capacity and the requisite supply to meet the rearming cost. In practice this means that AKE will probably only be able to rearm up to 12" guns. Most AE (but not all) can rearm up to 16" guns. All AE/AKE are capable of rearming carrier aircraft and torpedo sorties.


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