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RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 12:49:29 PM   
Osito


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidey

I, for one, am grateful that this isn't a Steam-game. I don't like Steam and I don't care for that particular business model. If I buy a game then I, and only I, decide if and when said game gets patched and to what version it gets patched. If I buy a game then it is mine to use on my computer for as long as my operating system allows it, and telling me that I can't use the game I bought unless I'm authorized by the publisher is a load of crap that I refuse to accept. Consequently I don't buy from Steam and if a game is Steam-exclusive then that's just too bad.

It may sound a bit ideological to some people, but the way I see it, it really isn't all that extreme. If a developer won't let me play a game permanently offline and won't let me control what game version I'm playing then said developer simply doesn't want my money. Developers make their choice and I make mine.



Doesn't sound extreme to me, it's just basic freedom of choice. I don't mind Steam - virtually all my games are on Steam nowadays - but I understand why people don't like it, and respect their opinion. What worries me is that we're moving to the point where there will be no choice. Actually, that's not quite right. There will be a choice, but it will be (1) play games via an on-line connection, or (2) don't play them at all.

< Message edited by Osito -- 2/14/2014 3:50:00 PM >

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Post #: 31
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 12:49:47 PM   
Flinkebeinchen


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Many Indie Games nowadays go with a Steam version and a non-Steam version. Distant Worlds Franchise can go both way too.

@Kayoz
Matrix has Steam Greenlight for Panzer Corps since December but they didn't even released it yet on Steam. So they actually have no numbers what impact a Steam release on a Franchise/sales has.

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Post #: 32
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 1:16:53 PM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flinkebeinchen
Many Indie Games nowadays go with a Steam version and a non-Steam version. Distant Worlds Franchise can go both way too.


I think you're confusing "could" with "is profitable to do so". Erik et al are running a business. A business with the explicit objective of turning as much of a profit as possible. I rather suspect Erik's decision was based more upon the latter than the former.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flinkebeinchen
@Kayoz
Matrix has Steam Greenlight for Panzer Corps since December but they didn't even released it yet on Steam. So they actually have no numbers what impact a Steam release on a Franchise/sales has.


I disagree. They make projections based on their business plan. It's a rather standard part of managing a business. I don't think I'm being unreasonable in assuming that Erik worked out some careful projections before making his decision.

Also, I seem to remember him stating it wasn't a good fit for DW at the moment. If you read between the lines, he quite specifically did not apply the statement to other Matrix games. Nor did he exclude a future Steam release for DW. As the business terrain changes, I'm sure he'll position his assets accordingly.

Call me a fan-boi of Matrix, but I think you're underestimating the business acumen behind the company.


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Post #: 33
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 1:41:34 PM   
pmelheck1

 

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The major issue I have with Steam is when your internet is down no gaming. They have an off line mode but it likes to kill it self off very frequently to where you MUST contact the steam servers to access any games you have on it. If Matrix goes under I still have all my Matrix games. If Steam goes under I have NOTHING. Steam does/used to promise that if they went under they would make their games stand alone but they have become so big with so many titles so tightly integrated with steam works it just wouldn't be feasible to recode every game on steam to rip out steam works and have a stand alone version. Some of the developers don't even exist any more. And while you might like a world where the only place to shop is Wal-Mart some of use do like to shop else where. A single source for ALL PC games wouldn't be any better for gamers then only having Wal-Mart for shopping would be good for all consumers.

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Post #: 34
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 2:54:28 PM   
Osito


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

The major issue I have with Steam is when your internet is down no gaming. They have an off line mode but it likes to kill it self off very frequently to where you MUST contact the steam servers to access any games you have on it. If Matrix goes under I still have all my Matrix games. If Steam goes under I have NOTHING. Steam does/used to promise that if they went under they would make their games stand alone but they have become so big with so many titles so tightly integrated with steam works it just wouldn't be feasible to recode every game on steam to rip out steam works and have a stand alone version. Some of the developers don't even exist any more. And while you might like a world where the only place to shop is Wal-Mart some of use do like to shop else where. A single source for ALL PC games wouldn't be any better for gamers then only having Wal-Mart for shopping would be good for all consumers.


Indeed. The other issue is that if Steam goes under, transferring your games to a different computer will be difficult (if not impossible - I don't know). The only reason it doesn't bother me is that I have no games on Steam that I couldn't live without.

Osito

(in reply to pmelheck1)
Post #: 35
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 3:13:58 PM   
Flinkebeinchen


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@mullk
As a long time steam user who plays nearly every day I must say the steam downtime is maybe ~1 day/year, at last in my region (Germany). Besides that steam offline play works fine but games that use build in online features just don't work when your internet is down. I don't think thats steam fault when your game needs inet to play.

Even when you own a game you only bought the right to use it. When Matrix goes under and a new publisher buys their games they can deny your access to them if they want to. Still playing would be illegal then ;)

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Post #: 36
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 3:42:38 PM   
Flinkebeinchen


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@Kayoz
Time to think about changing the goals of their business plan then maybe.

For example let's take a look at Defender's Quest from Level Up Labs

1.) Defender's Quest by the numbers - Part 1
2.) Defender's Quest by the numbers - Part 2 (3 months after Steam release)
3.) Lars Doucet (LUL) talking about Digital Distribution


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Post #: 37
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 5:00:38 PM   
Osito


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flinkebeinchen

Even when you own a game you only bought the right to use it. When Matrix goes under and a new publisher buys their games they can deny your access to them if they want to. Still playing would be illegal then ;)


Are you saying that if I buy a game on a dvd which can be played without any connection to the Internet, the copyright owner can subsequently revoke my right to use that game, and that I'm in breach of copyright if I play the game on my computer? Hmmm, I'd like to see that one play out in court.


< Message edited by Osito -- 2/14/2014 6:01:10 PM >

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Post #: 38
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 5:21:00 PM   
Flinkebeinchen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Osito

Are you saying that if I buy a game on a dvd which can be played without any connection to the Internet, the copyright owner can subsequently revoke my right to use that game, and that I'm in breach of copyright if I play the game on my computer? Hmmm, I'd like to see that one play out in court.

Sad but true

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Post #: 39
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 5:41:15 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flinkebeinchen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Osito

Are you saying that if I buy a game on a dvd which can be played without any connection to the Internet, the copyright owner can subsequently revoke my right to use that game, and that I'm in breach of copyright if I play the game on my computer? Hmmm, I'd like to see that one play out in court.

Sad but true

I believe you are mistaken in your assertion.

Cheers

Pip


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Post #: 40
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 6:14:27 PM   
Osito


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PipFromSlitherine


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flinkebeinchen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Osito

Are you saying that if I buy a game on a dvd which can be played without any connection to the Internet, the copyright owner can subsequently revoke my right to use that game, and that I'm in breach of copyright if I play the game on my computer? Hmmm, I'd like to see that one play out in court.

Sad but true

I believe you are mistaken in your assertion.

Cheers

Pip



And I'm sure you're correct in your assertion, Pip, although I can only speak with any authority about the position in the UK.

Osito

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Post #: 41
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 8:48:55 PM   
Spidey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Osito

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flinkebeinchen

Even when you own a game you only bought the right to use it. When Matrix goes under and a new publisher buys their games they can deny your access to them if they want to. Still playing would be illegal then ;)


Are you saying that if I buy a game on a dvd which can be played without any connection to the Internet, the copyright owner can subsequently revoke my right to use that game, and that I'm in breach of copyright if I play the game on my computer? Hmmm, I'd like to see that one play out in court.


It may be possible for a publisher in the US to revoke the right to use a game. It almost certainly is not possible in the EU. The buyer has made a good faith purchase and the seller has no legal recourse to revoke that deal without compensation. EULA terms might specify otherwise but the EULA doesn't override consumer protection laws in the EU. What the seller can do, however, is to tie the product to some online service and then discontinue that online service.


(in reply to Osito)
Post #: 42
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 8:56:56 PM   
pmelheck1

 

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With Steam I can use it off line 2-3 days then for some reason I MUST connect to the internet PERIOD. It will NOT go without connecting to the internet only 1 day a year. IT is an INTERNET program with a very weak offline play system that is only usable for a few days then you must connect to the Steam servers again. Even happens with my programs in steam when they download 5-10 meg of data and will not run unless they download that tiny file that IS NOT A PATCH. I have a few programs in steam and this 5-10 meg download is a daily thing with random programs. I have had zero length updates that must be completed if you want to use your software. And it doesn't matter if you have your programs set to not update.

As for the argument about revoking using software by the developer installed from a disk, understand that a lot of software isn't bought but you are leasing a license that can be revoked. It hasn't happened that I'm aware of but that doesn't mean it can't. Helps to read the EULA - you know... that screen where you hit the ok button and blow through when you install a game

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Post #: 43
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 9:11:48 PM   
Bingeling

 

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EULA that tries crap is junk here, anyways :)

Losing steam access is an annoyance. Keep gems like Distant Worlds in reserve. I believe we are moving to the "always connected" state (if not already there), and downloading and installing (or ancient stuff like DVDS) will sooner or later become rather old fashioned.

To the topic of this forum I would say that they succeed in making a smashing economic success to the degree that we suffer under a certain amount of "this is way too complicated!" whines on this forum. They are far between with the current pace of sales.

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Post #: 44
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 9:22:10 PM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flinkebeinchen
Time to think about changing the goals of their business plan then maybe.


You seem to think that YOU know better than Matrix what is good for Matrix.

I won't use harsh words like: ignorant, arrogant, deluded or self-aggrandizing. Anyone who actually reads your statement will find them popping into their mind unbidden.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flinkebeinchen
For example let's take a look at Defender's Quest from Level Up Labs


You're seriously going to compare DW to a dinky flash-based dungeon game? Are you seriously going to suggest that the marketing and demographics are the same?

But since that's your assertion, I'll point out that one company turning a success in selling baked beans at Tesco's doesn't mean the company peddling power drills will have the same success. But if you were asked, you'd nod vigorously.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flinkebeinchen
Even when you own a game you only bought the right to use it. When Matrix goes under and a new publisher buys their games they can deny your access to them if they want to. Still playing would be illegal then ;)


Finally, with regard to your assertion on copyright law re DVD and game licensing - you really should do some basic research before spouting off falsehoods which you present as authoritative. Here's a starting point for you - and it's not promising for your stated position.

As a minor point, your use of the term "illegal" is questionable (read: wrong). What has been discussed here are civil wrongs - which are not generally "illegal" (ie: criminal). I point this out to warn you against using terms that you clearly do not understand.

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 2/14/2014 10:38:30 PM >


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Post #: 45
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 10:00:25 PM   
CyclopsSlayer


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People all too seldom bother to read the EULA's they agree to.
One EULA for a game went so far as a copyright protection measure as to say that they had the rights to inspect ALL files on the accepting computer. Text, Financial, Application, even your Porn were now theirs to see.
Unethical? Sure. Illegal? No, you gave them permission to do so.

(heh, reminds me of a certain South Park episode)

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Post #: 46
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 10:15:36 PM   
Osito


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer

People all too seldom bother to read the EULA's they agree to.
One EULA for a game went so far as a copyright protection measure as to say that they had the rights to inspect ALL files on the accepting computer. Text, Financial, Application, even your Porn were now theirs to see.
Unethical? Sure. Illegal? No, you gave them permission to do so.

(heh, reminds me of a certain South Park episode)


I can't speak for the position in the US, but in the UK not all terms in a contract are enforceable, regardless of whether you agree to them or not. It is certainly not the case, in the UK, that a software supplier can enforce any terms it likes in its EULA. As far as the UK is concerned, EULA's have been full off ... uneforceable terms for decades.

Osito

< Message edited by Osito -- 2/14/2014 11:43:05 PM >

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Post #: 47
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 11:32:07 PM   
DevildogFF


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flinkebeinchen
Many Indie Games nowadays go with a Steam version and a non-Steam version. Distant Worlds Franchise can go both way too.


I think you're confusing "could" with "is profitable to do so". Erik et al are running a business. A business with the explicit objective of turning as much of a profit as possible. I rather suspect Erik's decision was based more upon the latter than the former.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flinkebeinchen
@Kayoz
Matrix has Steam Greenlight for Panzer Corps since December but they didn't even released it yet on Steam. So they actually have no numbers what impact a Steam release on a Franchise/sales has.


I disagree. They make projections based on their business plan. It's a rather standard part of managing a business. I don't think I'm being unreasonable in assuming that Erik worked out some careful projections before making his decision.

Also, I seem to remember him stating it wasn't a good fit for DW at the moment. If you read between the lines, he quite specifically did not apply the statement to other Matrix games. Nor did he exclude a future Steam release for DW. As the business terrain changes, I'm sure he'll position his assets accordingly.

Call me a fan-boi of Matrix, but I think you're underestimating the business acumen behind the company.



I have absolutely no doubt that you'll be eating your words one day.

NO DOUBT.

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Post #: 48
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 11:34:27 PM   
akvilonn

 

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quote:

CyclopsSlayer:
heh, reminds me of a certain South Park episode


I know, right! It's HUMANCENTiPAD!

Now this thread has turned into a usual steam vs non steam usage debate.

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Post #: 49
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 11:41:09 PM   
Kayoz


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Let's do a little unpacking of your statement:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flinkebeinchen
steam offline play works fine but games that use build in online features just don't work when your internet is down. I don't think thats steam fault when your game needs inet to play.


It's not Steam's fault that the DRM they provide and require every game published on their platform to use, requires an Internet connection?

Not? Seriously? You're seriously going to absolve Steam of any responsibility for this? They bear no liability for the actions of those who use their tools in the manner they were designed?

Is this what you're seriously trying to assert?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flinkebeinchen
Even when you own a game you only bought the right to use it. When Matrix goes under and a new publisher buys their games they can deny your access to them if they want to. Still playing would be illegal then ;)


1. "illegal" - I pointed this out before and will do so again. In America and the UK (I can't speak for other places), copyright violation is a civil wrong. It is not a criminal wrong. It is not "illegal".

2."they can deny" - American first-sale doctrine is not at all clear on the matter of computer games. The courts haven't weighed in on the issue. I would suspect only a suicidal company with far too large a legal budget would want to venture into the risky arena of the judiciary. Can you imagine the impact of a ruling which rules against them - and in effect ALL game publishers? This makes any EULA for games essentially a paper tiger.

Where the EU is concerned, the courts have been quite consistent in ruling in the consumer's favour - so getting court orders against DW players following a takeover of Matrix, would be unlikely to succeed.

3. "deny your access" - Matrix games do not have a "call home" feature. Once you have the downloaded installation package and your license key, whatever objection any new owner of Matrix IP might have is moot. Enforcing their denial of your use is impossible. You might as well ban birds from chirping.

4. "you only bought the right to use it" - by your own use of words - "bought", it's mine. Buy. Transfer of ownership. It's mine - not licensed, not rented, not "contracted for use for a period of time. That's the definition of the word. I bought it, it's mine. Your argument falls on its face before even passing the starting gates.

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Post #: 50
RE: Change publishers - 2/14/2014 11:51:57 PM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DevildogFF
I have absolutely no doubt that you'll be eating your words one day.


If you have a specific contention with what I wrote, then by all means, bring it on.

But I'm confused as to what exactly I'm going to eat...

Is it my assertion that Erik's decisions are motivated by profitability? Perhaps he'll be overcome with a sudden desire to give away all his wealth and release all Matrix IP as open source. Maybe. I'll be sure to look up and examine the skies for flying porcine when that happens.

Or is it my assertion that Matrix bods examined a Steam deal in detail before making their decision? Sure, it's possible that they regularly shake their magic 8-ball to divine answers to their business questions. But if that's the secret to Matrix's success... then I want their 8-ball.


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Post #: 51
RE: Change publishers - 2/15/2014 12:10:55 AM   
Osito


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

4. "you only bought the right to use it" - by your own use of words - "bought", it's mine. Buy. Transfer of ownership. It's mine - not licensed, not rented, not "contracted for use for a period of time. That's the definition of the word. I bought it, it's mine. Your argument falls on its face before even passing the starting gates.


Interesting point. I agree with pretty much everything you've posted on this thread, but this part is where it gets a bit unclear. When you buy a computer game, or a book, or a film all you ever get is a licence to use. I don't believe that the copyright owner can subsequently come along and deny your right to use, but that's all you have.

I appreciate that I'm making a rather pedantic point, but I'd be interested in hearing your views.

If you disagree, then exactly what do you believe has been bought, because you certainly wouldn't have the copyright.


< Message edited by Osito -- 2/15/2014 1:16:25 AM >

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Post #: 52
RE: Change publishers - 2/15/2014 4:32:52 AM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Osito

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz

4. "you only bought the right to use it" - by your own use of words - "bought", it's mine. Buy. Transfer of ownership. It's mine - not licensed, not rented, not "contracted for use for a period of time. That's the definition of the word. I bought it, it's mine. Your argument falls on its face before even passing the starting gates.


Interesting point. I agree with pretty much everything you've posted on this thread, but this part is where it gets a bit unclear. When you buy a computer game, or a book, or a film all you ever get is a licence to use. I don't believe that the copyright owner can subsequently come along and deny your right to use, but that's all you have.

I appreciate that I'm making a rather pedantic point, but I'd be interested in hearing your views.

If you disagree, then exactly what do you believe has been bought, because you certainly wouldn't have the copyright.



As I understand it, when you pay for a game, you aren't buying the game in the same sense that you buy a screwdriver or a car. You're paying for the license, the right to use the software within the constraints of the contract (the license agreement).

Now, there's two schools of thought:

licensed and not bought argument:
The first is that it's a contract and violation of that contract invalidates the agreement, and as such the owner of the software (in our case, Matrix) has the right to stop you from using the software. Also, the EULA is between you and Matrix, and you have no right to resell the game without their permission (read: compensation). (Matrix hasn't made an official statement on the matter, so please consider this an example and nothing more) This is the usual argument put forwards by the software companies. This link provides a reasonable summary of their argument.

First-Sale doctrine argument:
The other school of thought is that software is no different from any other material goods purchased - like a book, for example. In this case, the First-Sale Doctrine applies, and once you've bought it (note: bought - implying transfer of ownership), it's yours to do with as you please. You can use it how you want and resell it to whomever you want. The landmark case for this school of thought is the Kirtsaeng case. In that case, the Supreme Court asserted that the books were Kirtsaeng's and the publishers couldn't restrict him from selling them as he saw fit.

Now, which is the correct interpretation of the law is in question. From my reading on the issue, the courts' position is that First-Sale Doctrine holds sway unless Congress specifically creates legislation defining end-user licensing law. I don't pretend to be a lawyer or to speak authoritatively on the subject, but legal blogs seem to support the stance that it's very much a grey area until congress decides one way or another. And as any good taxpayer knows, grey areas are where you choose which is "correct" and do pretty much as you please.

Of course, if you're not living in the USA, copyright law depends on your local laws. EU residents are pretty much guaranteed First-Sale Doctrine rights.

** First-Sale doctrine - you bought it, you own it. You can resell it when you're done/bored with it.

Disclaimer: I expect to be schooled by any copyright lawyer visiting the forums, and would indeed welcome it.

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 2/15/2014 5:34:52 AM >


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Post #: 53
RE: Change publishers - 2/15/2014 2:46:40 PM   
Gregorovitch55

 

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@ Kayoz:

Steam has between 3 and 7 million users logged in at any one time and is believed to have more than 50m accounts total now. The reason Matrix is probably right not to use Steam to distribute it's core war game catalog is that it is itself the primary hub for serious war games and people who want to play serious war games will find their way here anyway. Such games have a limited market so every dollar counts and it is not clear releasing this type of game via Steam would increase revenue.

This is *not* true for space 4X games and it is crystal clear that both DW and Pandora would enjoy a massive increase in sales if exposed to those 50m+ potential players on Steam and promoted through periodic sales. This is exactly what happened to Paradox when they decided to release Crusader Kings 2 on Steam and EU4 is more successful still. If your goal is to maximize sales then for these two games it is a no-brainer.

As for the price of the game Erik has your $100 but he doesn't have mine. QED.

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Post #: 54
RE: Change publishers - 2/15/2014 3:53:40 PM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55
Steam has between 3 and 7 million users logged in at any one time


Does Steam indicate if they're ACTIVE? Or is it just that Steam is running on their computer?

No, they don't say "active" and "playing something" - so the number is meaningless. You might as well quote how many people have their computers switched on. It's a meaningless number.

And more importantly, those "logged in" users mean little and less without demographic data. If they're millions of teenagers who's favourite game is Counter Strike (or whatever), that is irrelevant to Matrix sales.

Your argument seems to the same used by websites claiming "XXX unique hits per day" when they send out their advertising fees.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55
is believed to have more than 50m accounts total now.


World of Warcraft has over 100 million accounts. So? By your argument, Blizzard should be swimming in money. Again, the number is meaningless.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55
The reason Matrix is probably right not to use Steam to distribute it's core war game catalog is that it is itself the primary hub for serious war games


I agree entirely. Why give money to Steam, to sell products that they can sell to the consumer directly and that they're already reaching? Seems pointless.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55
...it is crystal clear that both DW and Pandora would enjoy a massive increase in sales


Perhaps it's "crystal clear" to you, but apparently Erik et al disagree. Given Erik's background, I put more credibility in his analysis than your "crystal clear" business insight.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55
...what happened to Paradox....


Can you back up that claim with profit statements? And as you stated previously, Matrix has a firm foothold in the strategic gaming market. Paradox did not have anywhere near the market reach that Matrix does in the strategy games marketplace. Given your previous statement - it's entirely consistent that Matrix didn't choose to get into bed with Steam.... So what's your point?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55
As for the price of the game Erik has your $100 but he doesn't have mine. QED.


Zynga (Farmville) doesn't get any money from me either. It's a consumer choice. I'm not bothered how you choose to spend your money. Did I ever state that I should dictate how you spend your own money?

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Gregorovitch55)
Post #: 55
RE: Change publishers - 2/15/2014 7:36:33 PM   
Gregorovitch55

 

Posts: 191
Joined: 2/11/2014
Status: offline
@ Kayoz:

Where you are very mistaken is that "Matrix has a firm foothold in the strategic gaming market". It doesn't, not even close. Matrix has a mere 43,000 members whereas Paradox has 659,000. I can't remember the exact figures but I think Paradox has roughly doubled it's membership since releasing CK2 on Steam. DW accounts for 7600 threads on the forums for current games out of 57,000 total, which is about 13.5% and puts it in 3rd place behind War in the East and War in the Pacific. So a rough and ready calculation puts Matrix's share of the strategy game market (represented almost entirely by DW as their other titles of note a war games) at 13.5% of 6.5% or roughly 1% the size of Paradox.

Therefore your idea that "Paradox did not have anywhere near the market reach that Matrix does in the strategy games marketplace" is not just wrong it is, frankly, complete nonsense. People are not going to come here for strategy games unless they particularly want DW, they come here for war games that are not available anywhere else.

The other misconception you have is that Steam is populated by teenagers playing multi-player FPS games. Sure there are a lot of those, but a glance at the top 100 games currently being played (which is actually playing now)shows a lot of people playing games of comparable complexity and depth to DW, for example:

67,377 Sid Meier's Civilization V
60,147 Football Manager 2014
13,604 Arma 3
12,713 Football Manager 2013
7,433 Europa Universalis IV
5,538 Arma 2: Operation Arrowhead
5,347 Crusader Kings II
5,106 Kerbal Space Program
4,629 Age of Empires II: HD Edition
4,845 Football Manager 2012

The actual figures currently are 6.9m logged in and 1.8m actually playing a game (of which 600k DOTA2 so roughly 1.2m playing a PC game on Steam).

Endless Space currently has 1037 people playing it and a monthly average of 682. Endless Space has about 12,000 threads on it's forum since July 2012 vs, DW's 7600 since March 2010. A crude comparison would suggest Endless Space has about four times the number of players as DW. However I would wager a tidy sum that people have a lot less problems and a lot less questions about Endless Space than they do about DW because it's a much simpler game so it would not surprise me if true figure was 8 or even 10 times as many.





(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 56
RE: Change publishers - 2/15/2014 11:21:24 PM   
Osito


Posts: 851
Joined: 5/9/2013
Status: offline
@Kayoz: Ok, we're largely on the same page over this, although purchasing the product does not necessarily give you the right to do whatever you please with the copyright item. As an obvious example, you can't purchase a DVD of a film, then show that DVD to a group of 100 people, and charge them to watch the film. As mentioned previously, everything I say comes with the caveat that I can only speak to the position in the UK.



< Message edited by Osito -- 2/16/2014 12:29:42 AM >

(in reply to Gregorovitch55)
Post #: 57
RE: Change publishers - 2/16/2014 12:04:35 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55
Where you are very mistaken is that "Matrix has a firm foothold in the strategic gaming market".


It was YOUR statement, not mine. If you want to refute your OWN statement, then go right ahead.

Go ahead and argue with yourself. I'll have no part in it. I don't do schizophrenia.

*edit*:
My core argument with your assertions is that Erik has all the information on DW demographics and has assuredly dug deeply into Steam demographics to determine what increase in sales they can expect. He has the information and neither you no I do. I trust that he has every motivation to increase sales and thus his profits - whereas again, neither you nor I have a dog in this fight. Whatever numbers you call up from Steam statistics, I'm sure he's seen it all and examined it as part of his decision making process. Is it really so hard for you to understand this?

Also, the responsibilities, costs and limitations of a Steam contract are locked behind NDAs. What they are we can only speculate. If you aren't part of Matrix staff nor Steam, then you cannot know the details - and as such are trumpeting the benefits of Steam distribution without any knowledge of what's written in the contract. You seem to be comfortable making assertions based on ignorance. But I am not.
*end edit*

As to your Steam stats:

1. If you really think ARMA2 and ARMA3 are deep strategic games, then go right ahead. I suppose, in your mind, pong is as well.
2. You conveniently leave out all the other non-strategy games which make strategy games a tiny sliver of Steam activity. This is deeply disingenuous bordering on (yet another) lie.

There's nothing to debate with someone who is so disconnected with reality that he's concocting arguments with himself.

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 2/16/2014 6:47:54 AM >


_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Gregorovitch55)
Post #: 58
RE: Change publishers - 2/16/2014 5:23:12 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1516
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Osito

@Kayoz: Ok, we're largely on the same page over this, although purchasing the product does not necessarily give you the right to do whatever you please with the copyright item. As an obvious example, you can't purchase a DVD of a film, then show that DVD to a group of 100 people, and charge them to watch the film. As mentioned previously, everything I say comes with the caveat that I can only speak to the position in the UK.




I meant in terms of the physical media (for a DVD). You can write your name on it, you can stick it in your shelf, you can grind it into powder and snort it - or you can sell it. That's your right.

Likewise with a digital product, you can remix the music (MP3) to your tastes for your own pleasure. Or for a game, you can replace the graphics (ie: mod) it to your tastes, or even crack it if the copy protection is intrusive (fair use).

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 2/16/2014 6:51:32 AM >


_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Osito)
Post #: 59
RE: Change publishers - 2/16/2014 7:59:34 AM   
Spidey


Posts: 399
Joined: 12/8/2013
Status: offline
Since we're apparently discussing the living hell out of Steam anyway, I feel like mentioning that the math isn't at all simple. Yes, Steam has a gazilion users (slightly exaggerated for effect), but how many of them care for strategy games as complex as DW and what's the profit margin on selling to this segment? What are the risks?

So many Steam games are selling for rather cheap these days. In isolation, paying 75-100 bucks for a game requires a ton of content to be worth it and DW + expansions requires some dedication to the genre to be worth it. It obviously isn't for everybody. Put it next to all the other products in the Steam-lineup and suddenly it stands out rather badly. Everything else is offered at bargain bin prices after a few years while DW vanilla is going for beyond $30? That's never going to fly. Heck, the game is only truly competitive with the full loadout of expansions and if you were to push that entire package down to a Steam-friendly level then what's left over after Valve's share is probably just a quarter or less of what they're getting in revenue per sale currently.

Keep in mind that sales aren't guaranteed at all on Steam. There's a small ocean of games available of Steam and most of them are a lot less complex than DW. And arguably, Steam-users aren't looking for needless complexity, which is why they're using Steam to begin with. Do they care for a strategy game with a rather high learning curve? Are they going to get frustrated and slam the living hell out of the game, scaring off other potential buyers? Might that negativity spread from Steam to other forums? It's quite possible, isn't it? So instead of getting access to millions of new customers, there's also the very real risk of getting in touch with the wrong segment and triggering a ton of whining and negativity. I admittedly don't have any experience with game marketing, but I sincerely doubt that's how you sell games.

Let's not forget that this is a 2d game with fairly bad (but functional and "timeless") graphics, a dated interface, documentation that really needs a facelift, a tutorial straight out of the 90's, and an at times frustrating gameplay. If a mainstream gamer got exposed to this package then I've got no doubt in my mind that he'd be rather negative about the experience, which would go straight against what appears to be a current marketing strategy of positive word of mouth.

So all in all, it really isn't a trivial decision to make and it's not enough to simply look at membership numbers before throwing in DW as game number 3001 on Steam. As Kayoz likes to say, it does make sense to assume that Erik, having to regularly pay bills and buy food and stuff, actually does try to optimize for the best possible profit and it's also reasonable to assume that he's not being a drooling idiot about it. Granted, it's an appeal to authority, logically speaking, but in practical terms it's also a very reasonable assumption. If his math is telling him that going Steam isn't worth it then I'm fairly sure he's based it on something with a lot more substance than "hey look, some other game did well on Steam, let's go already!!11" or what have you.


(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 60
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