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Ignoring Russia - 2/10/2014 4:42:07 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Is this possible? If you produce until mid '42 as Germany/Italy witout the losses in Russia, I would think the defensive line would be pretty good by then. Plus would that not slow down US entry too?

If the game has so many ways to alter the WWII timeline, why is this not a viable path as well?
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RE: Ignoring Russia - 2/10/2014 4:57:15 PM   
Cad908

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Is this possible? If you produce until mid '42 as Germany/Italy witout the losses in Russia, I would think the defensive line would be pretty good by then. Plus would that not slow down US entry too?

If the game has so many ways to alter the WWII timeline, why is this not a viable path as well?

Most anything is possible. Whether it is viable depends on the tradeoffs you are willing to accept.

While you are building up, so is the USSR. Where will it deploy those units? Stuff the border? Against Japan?

Starting Jan/Feb 42 the US will draw 2 markers per turn. If it chooses Japan as its target, how long into 1942 before it can have a strong chance of getting a DOW roll, and can Japan take that chance?

Perhaps the USSR turns the tables and declares. You might have to face a USSR surprise impulse in central Poland.

This is why the game is so much fun.

-Rob

(in reply to Numdydar)
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RE: Ignoring Russia - 2/10/2014 5:10:54 PM   
WarHunter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Is this possible? If you produce until mid '42 as Germany/Italy witout the losses in Russia, I would think the defensive line would be pretty good by then. Plus would that not slow down US entry too?

If the game has so many ways to alter the WWII timeline, why is this not a viable path as well?


If you envision a game where the Axis choose not to invade the USSR. What are the borders you are willing to stop at? Once the axis have achieved their happy space. You have effectively given the Allies the initiative.

Japan will suffer the most from this strategy. While Germany and Italy contrive to stuff the Eastern border into 1943. The Japanese will be fighting for her life against the combined Allied navies. Maybe even an invasion from the USSR which secures Manchuria.

When Japan falls. It all comes to Europe. Slowly fortress Europa will crack. I'm a pessimist when it comes to playing not to lose.

Better to expand the borders in all directions and trade space for time. If only to drive into Russia for limited space rather than to the Urals.



_____________________________


“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
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(in reply to Numdydar)
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RE: Ignoring Russia - 2/10/2014 5:33:49 PM   
Centuur


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The Sitzkrieg... Usually not a good strategy to have in the long run, however, when the Med is closed and the UK did take a lot of losses while defending there and there is the sealift available for a Sea Lion (succesful please), than this can be an option...

Usually, Japan won't like it at all, since the USSR will try to grab Manchuria and assist China that way...

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RE: Ignoring Russia - 2/10/2014 7:44:55 PM   
paulderynck


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Certainly the Sitz is a well known WiF strategy. But with the city PM mods, Russia's production will become HUGE. The Germans eventually must declare war if only to stave off the mother of all Surprise impulses with Russia doing a Super Combined.

The basic high level strategies analyzed for Europe when considering the work done on the US entry chits (being an infinite rather than finite distribution) were:
Barb 41
Barb 42
Sitz
Close the Med

Some Barb 42s turn into Sitzs wherein the Germans do a preemptive attack to take Minsk and Kiev (see city PM mods) and then go on the defensive.




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RE: Ignoring Russia - 2/10/2014 7:51:20 PM   
micheljq


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You can stack enough so that USSR won't be able to attack you before 1943. But you will have to stack more and more units on their border with time.

Michel.

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RE: Ignoring Russia - 2/11/2014 1:56:43 AM   
Numdydar

 

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Thanks for all the replies.

I guess with all the discussions about Germany into Spain, having Italy declare war in 1939, etc., all of which the game attempts to handle with various rules, I would think it would do the same thing with Russia. Of course the designers assumed that at some point Russia would have attacked Germany, but I am not sure if Stalin would ever had done that in RL. He was an oportuntist, not someone that would take a chance like attacking a heavily fortified border.

Also without the lessons learned from 41/42, the Russian army would have been very brittle imho. So even if Germany was outnumbered, I still think they could have contained and really had opportunities to wipe out huge numbers of Russians. Also, if Stailn was the aggressior, where is all the dissent as he could no longer declare a war for the Motherland? The support for the war would have been dramticly different, especially since Stalin was the one that broke the treaty and not Germany. Of course, if Stalin got the right deal from the Allies, then he definately would have join in.

It just seems like there should be some kind of entry pool for Russia similar to the US to better reflect this reality. Both Allied and Axis actions could influence it same as the US. Just some thinking out loud

I realize this is a game, blah, blah,. But if you are going to allow all this weirdness in '39/40, then that should have been better extended into the entire game, versus just the beginning.

(in reply to micheljq)
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RE: Ignoring Russia - 2/11/2014 4:51:00 AM   
paulderynck


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That mechanic is there with the garrison values incorporating the entry markers plus the US Entry system. Once either Russia or Germany can break the Pact, they can do so, but not before. And if the axis is uber aggressive everywhere but Russia, likely the US comes in sooner. But if Russia uses the extra time during a Sitz to go after her little neighbors, then US Entry will tend to slowe down.

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RE: Ignoring Russia - 2/11/2014 5:49:07 PM   
brian brian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Of course the designers assumed that at some point Russia would have attacked Germany, but I am not sure if Stalin would ever had done that in RL.



a question of history still debated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_offensive_plans_controversy

perhaps the Soviet Front Commanders had the plans and topo maps of German Poland in their safes….


the great AAR from yvesp, now completed, explored this question.

one reason not many people are fond of the Sitzkrieg is that it makes for a more boring game for each side. 3 units / hex from the Baltic to the Black Sea, sometimes 2 complete lines of such hexes for each contestant, is just not as dynamic of a game compared to mobile armored warfare.

(in reply to Numdydar)
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RE: Ignoring Russia - 2/11/2014 10:13:24 PM   
Numdydar

 

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But safer maybe

I also wonder if the Allies would have still poured as much lendlease into Russia if they were the aggressor? I would tend to think so as my enemy of my enemy and all of that.

But games that explore these options tend to allow our 21st century hindsight to imapct the 1930s/40s world stage in ways the original partisipents would not thought of without our fore knowledge. Just one example is that the Axis consider Yugoslovia as someone that would join their cause. It actually did sign the agreement to do so in 1941. But the government was overthrown one day later and was now leaning to the Allies. If Germany/Italy KNEW this was likely in 1941, they may had indeed taken different approches to leading up to that event just like we do in these games like WiF.

What is really needed is a complex game whose world is totally random every time. The Ai then randomly creates all the countries, leaders, technology, and you get to decide who you want to play . THEN we will be playing a game that will do a much better job of forcing us to think like 1936-45 versus 2014. Just some OT ramblings lol.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 10
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