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A snapshot AAR - 2/6/2014 6:53:41 PM   
Tarhunnas


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I am currently playing a game against timmyab. We are using the latest patch, the 260 VP campaign and mild winter rules. I thought it would be worthwile to present some maps and statistics at certain points of the campaign. Not a full AAR, as I have no time, but kind of a snapshot AAR.

I am playing the Soviets and timmyab the Germans. Timmyab and I have played before and I would say we are well matched opponents.

The first snapshot is from turn 10, as I didn't think of saving maps and statistics until then. I have performed a fairly forward but not stupidly forward defense. We had the usual encirclements on turn one including the Lvovo pocket. After that, there have been a couple of small to mediun pockets of ten divisions each or so but no major pockets.




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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/6/2014 7:00:04 PM   
Tarhunnas


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The next one is from turn 13. Nothing really dramatic has happened since the last one really. The Germans are pressing hard towards Moscow, rather stubbornly, and I will have a hard time stopping them. Leningrad has fallen and Kharkov is cleaned out.

Map before Soviet moves.




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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/6/2014 7:54:47 PM   
Tarhunnas


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Turn 14. A pretty bad turn for me. Moscow is almost surrounded, I lost Tula with 12 Arm or so to a raid, and an army got surrounded in front of Stalino.

The only thing positive is that I have managed to evacuate almost all the important stuff from Moscow.






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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/6/2014 7:58:45 PM   
Tarhunnas


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The next one shows the Moscow area turn 16 before Soviet moves. Moscow was surrounded and I lost 10 divisions or so there. There is also a pocket north of Tula.




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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/6/2014 8:02:09 PM   
Tarhunnas


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The next one is turn 17, last turn before mud. I was a bit optimistic with an army east of Kharkov and got surrounded. I should have known better.




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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/6/2014 9:28:37 PM   
gingerbread


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3.2M (with Hiwis) by end of Barb campaign assuming non-random; is this due to the fairly forward defense? I'm mostly interested if this is an early benchmark of how it would be with a mid Barb SD check. Though with 340+ factories, ARM is not going to be the bottleneck.

Did you feed your partisans? Any effect?

The Axis does not seem to be lacking fuel.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/6/2014 10:30:18 PM   
timmyab

 

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I'll just add some thoughts and a map now and again.

The game has been dominated by T's insistence on defending forward. This makes the game really good fun but also handicaps him a lot. I'm thinking of returning the compliment in the blizzard but the thought of losing thirty or forty divisions puts me off a bit. I still think that a two hex minimum move for German divisions could be the answer to that.

This is the end of turn 15.
As soon as Moscow is surrounded my attention turns immediately to the flanks. Those bulges must be pushed back or there's no prizes for guessing what will happen come the winter. 4th pz army plus Model's elite 1st corps are given the task of taking Torzhok and Kalinin to the North and part of 2nd pz army comes up from Kharkov to drive North of Tula.

The campaign yielded very few arms factories but a raid on Tula last turn and about 12 locked down in the Donets this turn has been an unexpected bonus.







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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/7/2014 2:48:26 AM   
jwolf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

The game has been dominated by T's insistence on defending forward. This makes the game really good fun but also handicaps him a lot. I'm thinking of returning the compliment in the blizzard but the thought of losing thirty or forty divisions puts me off a bit. I still think that a two hex minimum move for German divisions could be the answer to that.


Did you mean a two hex maximum? At any rate I applaud both of you for playing in a competitive but fun style. Good luck and may the most forward defender win!

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/7/2014 3:36:53 PM   
timmyab

 

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No I mean so that German divisions can always move at least two hexes regardless of ZOCs. This would negate most of the ZOC locking that forces them to run across the whole front in Dec and Jan or risk losing dozens of divisions. With a two hex minimum move they could take a chance and try to hold their ground without fear of getting locked. This would give a more historical result and better represent German superior tactical abilities.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/7/2014 3:48:15 PM   
Tarhunnas


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The game mechanisms have up to now not been really good a representing German hedgehog defense in winter, or indeed any kind of salients and temporarily isolated positions. If you're surrounded you're dead is the truth in WITE, and there will be no Demyansks or Kholms or smaller hedgehogs.

I am not sure a two hex minimum move for the Germans is the way to go though. I have admittedly no experience of the mild winter yet (though lack of experience is usually not an impediment to strong opinions on this forum) but I would hope that the mild winter will make local German counterattacks possible to restore communications to units isolated by Soviet winter thrusts.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/7/2014 4:03:55 PM   
jwolf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

No I mean so that German divisions can always move at least two hexes regardless of ZOCs.


Thanks for the explanation; I see what you mean now. But this is not possible in the current game engine, is it?

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/7/2014 5:05:05 PM   
timmyab

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
I would hope that the mild winter will make local German counterattacks possible to restore communications to units isolated by Soviet winter thrusts.

O.k I'll try to play it that way and we'll see what happens. From my limited 'mild' winter experience I would expect to lose a lot of divisions across the entire front which will basically end this game, but it'll be a useful experiment.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/7/2014 5:07:47 PM   
Tarhunnas


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Don't feel constrained by my thoughts Tim! Play it whatever way you are comfortable with! The only thing that would make me miffed is a wholesale withdrawal across the whole front, but withdrawing from salients here and there would be completely OK IMHO.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/7/2014 5:52:26 PM   
gingerbread


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I think some players use temporary motorization to get ZOC-locked Germans free. AP should not be a problem at that stage of the game, but it will cost some vehicles.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/7/2014 6:40:47 PM   
timmyab

 

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^I thought you had to be not in ZOC to motorize a unit or has the rule changed?

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/7/2014 6:58:04 PM   
gingerbread


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Never tried it, but I read up on it seeing your comment. While the rules does not specifically prohibit motorizing while in ZOC, they do prohibit moving adjacent to an enemy unit. So I admit I spoke in ignorance...

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/7/2014 7:10:21 PM   
timmyab

 

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Actually something of that sort wouldn't be a bad idea. It does need something to get the Germans out of these ZOC locks in the 41 blizzard.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/7/2014 8:45:19 PM   
gingerbread


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You might want to checkout Saper222 vs Harrybanana. Saper broke down the German Divs so while he did lose some units, the total was not that high.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/7/2014 10:56:48 PM   
Disgruntled Veteran


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Temporary motorization doesn't work with ZOC. Already tried it so its basically useless as a blizzard runaway tool.

The Germans do not need to fall back in December anymore. I have just completed a full Blizzard and didn't lose a single division while conducting no runaway

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/7/2014 11:01:30 PM   
loki100


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interesting to see the results of a German focus on Moscow in 1941.

aye, tend to the view that with the mild blizzard it plays out completely different to the conventional response in early versions

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/9/2014 10:26:21 AM   
juret

 

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nice to see u back tarhunnas!

How much industry did u loose? hvy? arm? factories?

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/9/2014 11:25:51 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Thanks!

I have 158 HI and 341 Arm left coming out of mud. I may be a bit short on HI. No important factories lost, I think I got everything important out, albeit only a few points of some factories, but they will grow.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/9/2014 5:37:38 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Back in business eh, Tarhunnas?

Good luck and above all have a lot of fun

Okay then. I am not following the development of the game lately, but what am I seeing? Leningrad (nothing new) AND Moscow grabbed (Turns 13-14 and beyond)?

And people had told me on the forum that these things didn't happen anymore? I still see the same German über Machine

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/9/2014 8:01:23 PM   
Michael T


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quote:

And people had told me on the forum that these things didn't happen anymore?


It's due to a forwardish defence. If the Soviet plays the run and build wall strategy its a different story.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/10/2014 3:20:16 AM   
hfarrish

 

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I keep saying...if you can find a good Soviet player who will abide by a reasonable forward defense, the game is at the best state it's ever been. Really fun.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/11/2014 6:31:27 PM   
Tarhunnas


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This is the last turn of mud before Soviet moves. As you can se I have a couple of reserve armies training behind the front, but I will bring them forward as a rearward screen to catch leakers.
Identified panzer concentrations are circled. I am somewhat worried that the Germans will cut off something...




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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/11/2014 6:35:31 PM   
Tarhunnas


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Turn 22, snow, before Soviet moves.

As you can see the Germans have not tried any penetrations, but instead are doing general attacks all along the front. They do inflict considerable casualties, almost 5:1, but I still find this something of a relief from the expected deep penetration cutting off parts of the front.




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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/12/2014 9:18:01 PM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


As you can see the Germans are doing general attacks all along the front.


It's a good news for you. On my opinion german offensive in November should only de focused on major objectives or encirclement. Such a frontal push is not the best choice.

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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/15/2014 10:38:20 AM   
Tarhunnas


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The next turn another German wide fronted assault, this time un the South. Casualties around 4-1. This hurts, but I feel no fear, just like the Vikings in Asterix and the Vikings:




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RE: A snapshot AAR - 2/15/2014 10:40:50 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Here is the situation at the start of Blizzard, turn 25. Map before Soviet moves. The Germans appear to be determined to hold on to Moscow. They have a string front to the north and east of Moscow. On the southern half of the front they are pulling back and seems to be prepared to give ground.




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