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New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/4/2014 1:35:27 PM   
pekische

 

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Is development team consider about change of map´s look in the future? Because present official look of maps is realy awful, unclear and without level-terrain hint unplayable. So now I have to wait for kind peoples modding this. I like concept of your game but I think state of your maps decreases gaming experience.

< Message edited by pekische -- 2/4/2014 2:36:15 PM >
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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/4/2014 2:36:41 PM   
cbelva

 

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Disclaimer--I am writing this with full discloser that I am a member of the development team and bias towards the game.

Yes, map design is under discussions and consideration by the development team. Exactly what we want to do is still undecided. Our main focus the last few weeks has been on getting the 2.03 patch out. Once that is out, we can have a short breather before work begins on 2.04 in order to discuss things like the direction of maps.

I would like to says a few words about our current maps. First, none of us on the development team is a artist. Capn D is the best among us and his abilities produced the "really awful, unclear and without level-terrain hint unplayable" maps. You don't want to see what my maps would have looked like. This is only a four man team and believe me when I say that this is not our job it is our hobby. I am a late comer to the team, but the reason we did this is because we love wargames and wanted to build a game we wanted to play. We would have loved to have had the ability to have hired graphic artists to design our maps, but since we couldn't, we decided to make them functional and moddable for those with more talent than Capn D. Unlike Flashpoint Germany that had beautiful maps, there were only 4 and there were no method for the player to make more and put them in the game. And talk about maps where the terrain was unreadable...those were the maps from FPG.

But, I don't understand the comments that the terrain/elevation is hard to read. I hear you and others, I just don't understand it. I have been playing wargames since the 70s. I have 60 year old eyes that has had a serious injury and surgery and I find the elevation in the map easy to read and can usually tell with just a quick glance. In fact, I find that I can read the terrain on these maps fairly easy. Can we improve them and make them prettier, I think we can. I drool when I look at Jamm's and Plodder's maps. In fact both of those maps have had a fair amount of attention by the development team.

In closing I do want to thank everyone for your support of the game. We did it for you as much as we did it for ourselves. We do listen to everything that is said on the forum, and it usually gets discussed in our weekly development meeting. We want to continue to expand and improve on FPC. It will take time to do all that we would like to do.

< Message edited by cbelva -- 2/4/2014 5:03:53 PM >

(in reply to pekische)
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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/4/2014 3:05:20 PM   
TheWombat

 

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FWIW, while like most I'd also love better looking maps, and appreciate the modders' work we have seen so far, I've found the the stock maps perfectly usable. I don't think about 'em much, I just play the game, and they don't get in the way. Perfectly acceptable, especially from a small team. There are many uglier maps out there in the computer wargame space, trust me... :)

(in reply to cbelva)
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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/4/2014 3:50:31 PM   
CapnDarwin


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Charles pretty much nailed our take on the maps and I have had a similar discussion on UI on another site. I have thick skin and hearing the maps are ugly is not reducing me to tears or anything. It was a choice made in the look and style to get us 30 plus maps instead of 4. Now if you do not like the look, please tell or show us what would work. Then we can talk about ways to "fix" the issue or why we can't.

Thanks.

_____________________________

Work on Southern Storm continues and we will hopefully have news about our new website and even whispers of Beta Testing soon!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to TheWombat)
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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/4/2014 4:00:09 PM   
Panta_slith


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I guess the default maps aren't that bad, actually, they have a boardgame look, like Squad Leader's. IMO the colour of the ploded fields is too intense and that is a bit distracting. I have tried modifying the map's hue and contrast with Photoshop to see if that improved them but not, they are all right as they are. Of course Jamm's maps are a different thing, they have a sandbox feeling that makes them very easy to read. And I, like other fellows in this forum, also prefer contour maps, the military type, slightly modified, of course, but I reckon that making them is more time consuming.

< Message edited by Panta -- 2/4/2014 5:35:15 PM >

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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/4/2014 4:07:59 PM   
jack54


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Hi All,

First off I have to say that I totally agree with TheWombat 'they don't get in the way. Perfectly acceptable'.

If these are the only maps we ever have in the game it's fine... certainly much better than the original 'Flashpoint Germany's' map which looked pretty but really had me lost.

Charles as far as not understanding the elevation issue I have, it's simple, 'I'm Lazy'... it takes me a little while to get it so sometimes I don't bother until some smoking AFV's enlighten me..

A map like Plodders where the elevation jumps out actually 'saves me from myself'.

Anyway thanks for listening
Jack


cbelva- 'We do listen to everything that is said on the forum, and it usually gets discussed in our weekly development meeting'

Seriously. I believe you guys are the BEST!




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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/4/2014 5:50:42 PM   
parmenio

 

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I'm a software developer by trade and a wargamer by hobby (I have a background project going on developing my own wargame). To say I'm also not an artist would be an understatement. I think the maps look pretty good, and IMHO clean and clear. They're certainly better than anything I could produce to the point where I've been taking a look at Hexdraw myself. Up until now I've been working with a custom build of Tiled that gives it Hex support.

I'd agree that someone of the map modders work on here is amazing but I think it's pretty unfair to denigrate the work put in to-date so severely.

(in reply to jack54)
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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/4/2014 11:13:04 PM   
Mad Russian


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The maps were created by me. Like Capn Darwin my skin is pretty thick. For a number of reasons. First is that as a gamer, not a developer, I don't care about what's pretty versus what's functional and all that is versus game play.

For me personally, game play is the #1 issue.

Having said that, I worked very hard at making these maps functional. I knew they weren't as pretty as the FPG maps. Fine. Are they easier to use? IMO they are by a country mile.

There are things on these maps that help with LOS without needing anything else.

1. Fields are only added at elevations 1 and 2. Nothing higher than that.

2. Elevation differences are marked with different colors.

3. All changes on hill masses with forest are shown with the contour of the hill. The hill isn't just covered in forest and you get to guess where the elevation goes up.

Those are the quick LOS guide put right there on the map for you. You want more than that you need to go to the LOS tool. Like a commander that needs to know exactly how tall a hill is. He looks at his map instead of looking at the hill.

For me, that's acceptable. After a very short time of playing the game the map elevations became second nature to me. But I'm not the chess player type of gamer. I don't stress over the exact best location for every piece on the map. Chaos will reign supreme in the game anyway and to me that kind of detail is overkill unless I need it. If I want that kind of detail it's available in the game. Otherwise I want the fast 10 second overview that tells me where hill and dale is.

Hope that helps.


Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/4/2014 11:21:13 PM   
jenrick

 

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Now that I know I can look at the UI and see elevation, the map coloring isn't as big a deal to me. I personally prefer a slightly more obvious shift in shading or what not to denote an elevation change but it's not a deal breaker. Only where the hex terrain (forest, etc) fills pretty much the whole hex do I find it difficult to figure out the hex elevation just by color.

-Jenrick

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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/4/2014 11:38:57 PM   
Mad Russian


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As has been pointed out, there are only so many colors that we can use for elevation changes. We have 5 on these maps and are already up to 10 for future maps.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to jenrick)
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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/5/2014 9:58:06 AM   
tide1530

 

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I think we can all agree the maps are ugly....When I first saw the map I said to myself...self thems some ugly maps but unplayable and awful? It seems that lots of people who have bought and play the game like me have no problem with the maps. If the development team gets around to making eye candy maps sweet if not so be it. just my humble opinion. And the trigger for this thread in my humble opinion....again...just a troll

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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/5/2014 11:30:34 AM   
DoubleDeuce


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Well, whatever anyone says, IMHO, the key to this game's longevity besides being a great game, is going to be its moddability (sp). You can edit the maps, the graphics and the unit data and others can uses those with little more effort than copying the files to the appropriate FPRS folder. I mean come on, how awesome is that.

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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/5/2014 11:55:38 AM   
pekische

 

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Hi dev team! I understand how the maps were made and why they look like they look. I appreciate your efforts in creating your game. How i wrote I like your concept - and THAT is the reason why I don´t like your maps (no trolling). Because I feel it could be better, it could have better feeling and experience. Everybody in this thread made a list why I should be satisfied with maps what we have now. Ok, I understand your argument. But my base question was whether dev team is planing refresh of the maps or is satisfied with them. My opinion about that you know just as my wish:) The main reason why I write it here is the fact that dev team read this forum and listen to players (so no trolling again).

(in reply to DoubleDeuce)
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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/5/2014 2:36:57 PM   
Werewolf13

 

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Being old school and having spent most of the last 50 years wargaming all I can say is you kids have it way better than guys my age did. Paper maps were all we had. 2D was it! The FPC:RS maps are just like the paper maps we used to have. Once you figured 'em out they were easy enough to use. The current maps are quite functional - especially when one uses the LOS tools available in game.

Then again - one supposes I've been spoiled by all the realism that computers bring to contemporary wargaming; environment modeling, morale modeling, fire control, a plethora of unit types, weapon types, warfare thru the ages; you name it its been done and done well and with out having to waste time on rule books as thick as the bible and a set of tables to match just to play and NO MORE DICE!

Add to that that - and I'm almost ashamed to say it - that I've turned into a graphics whore and it would be nice to have 3D maps but if we never get 'em - well - FPC:RS will still be a great game.

And just 4 guys put it together! WOW! FP:RS stacks up as good as if not better than many of the wargames I currently play - some with budgets in the millions of dollars.

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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/5/2014 6:05:08 PM   
CapnDarwin


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I guess the best I can do for the OP is to state the following:

1. Do we plan on redoing all of the maps with pretty hand drawn maps? No. We just don't have the time or manpower for that. Plus it would halt any new content/expansions dead in there tracks. Why? Even at a week a map it would be over 30 weeks to get those all done and that would not include any new maps. Basically it's not efficient for a small team and it is one of the reasons we went tiled and then went with a color coded system to allow auto-values placement.

2. Are we talking about changing the map system to a different tile system where better tile are could be used? Yes. This solution would allow for better looking maps based on having a large tile set done for each theater and season. These maps would look better, but still a step down from hand drawn. They would still be highly moddable. Sounds awesome, where is the rub? We would need to pull our primary coder from game engine work for 2.1 and kill 3-6 months building up and testing this new system along with an outlay of cash to get a ton of tiles generated for this new system. We have had discussion in the team about this for a while. What is hard to determine is if a delay in the game engine and future main theaters of a handful of months is worth this new mapping system. One fact of this mapping conundrum is pretty and functional are on either ends of a selection slider.

3. 3D system. Would be awesome, but would take an entire new codebase to achieve. Not in the tradespace at this time and not really suited to a 2d game as we have it. I can see the cool effects of tipping the board or real time shadows, etc.

4. Mods. We have a very open system that allows you to take any map and scale it in and use it. Whether that is HexDraw, topo maps, google earth shots, hand drawn maps, reskinned FP9s, or snap shots of finger paintings. We opted for a faster and albeit dirtier (less pretty) system so we could very quickly move the action anywhere.

Have we thought of every solution to this? No. We started with the best we could do within the constraints of the team. Do we want to make it better and perfect. Sure do, but there are real world limits to what 4 guys with day jobs, families and other obligations can muster. Case in point, the delay in Modding guides by yours truly, because I've been hip deep in combat model code making a number of fixes and adjustments to make the core game better, I don't have the free time to finish the docs. I am getting some additional help from Mad Russian now to speed things up.

Bottom line is we are listening to everyone, but we also have to temper any changes by what we can do with the very limited resources at hand. Keep telling us what you like and don't like, and we will continue to make the game better.

I'll stop ranting now. I think this weather and this bad head cold makes me cranky.

_____________________________

Work on Southern Storm continues and we will hopefully have news about our new website and even whispers of Beta Testing soon!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to Werewolf13)
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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/5/2014 6:52:16 PM   
cbelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

I'll stop ranting now. I think this weather and this bad head cold makes me cranky.

No, it is all my demands and recommendations for code changes to correct issues in the combat model to Capn D and Rob that is making him cranky, keeping him from the mod guides, and delaying the patch.
( Capn D after another email from me)

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/5/2014 6:54:44 PM   
MikeAP

 

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Always interesting to hear a developers perspective, so thank you for that insight.

Just wondering - there are some pretty looking Matrix games; Close Combat, Panzer Corps...I'm sure there are a few more.

Was it ever possible to have Matrix provide you with an artist for a reasonable fee/within your budget?

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/5/2014 7:16:48 PM   
CapnDarwin


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MikeAP,

Yes we do have the possibility of going that route and probably would if we do a tile based system. There are a great number of better graphic artists then myself out there. Even with the "art" portion covered in that manner we still have to deal with the coding impact versus our planned expansions and new modules/engines. I'll wager a guess we will be discussing this again in-house this week once 2.03 is out the door. Right now making the game work as we intended is the much higher priority. We also need to make Charles happy too.

< Message edited by Capn Darwin -- 2/5/2014 8:17:30 PM >


_____________________________

Work on Southern Storm continues and we will hopefully have news about our new website and even whispers of Beta Testing soon!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to MikeAP)
Post #: 18
RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/5/2014 8:11:32 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin
4. Mods. We have a very open system that allows you to take any map and scale it in and use it.


We're already seeing some nice mods, like the summer/winter maps with 1km grid overlay. I like the grid overlay idea for better estimating ranges and such. For me. But like MR said, the gameplay is most important. If that isn't right then it doesn't matter how pretty the maps are. As-is, they look fine to me; I'd just like that grid overlay option for better visuals.

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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/5/2014 10:18:30 PM   
ewilkie

 

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Just wondering if a view option to clear map of terrain elements would help to give an uncluttered look at elevation?

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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/6/2014 12:21:03 AM   
CapnDarwin


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ewikie, no way to do that with a fixed image file. The elevation overlay function gives you that info numerically.

_____________________________

Work on Southern Storm continues and we will hopefully have news about our new website and even whispers of Beta Testing soon!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to ewilkie)
Post #: 21
RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/6/2014 12:35:26 AM   
jenrick

 

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Having grown up in the age of table top wargaming, I find the maps perfectly functional for what they are. If I have a choice between "prettier" maps of the battle space and new features/theaters/etc. The later wins everytime with me.

-Jenrick

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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/6/2014 1:41:18 AM   
MikeAP

 

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I dislike the maps because I can't tell the difference in elevations, which leads to poor intelligence prep of the battlefield, which then results in losing battles.

I'll never understand the ideology of wargamers, which is why I will never consider myself one.

These are the same guys who are still running rigs using Windows XP from earlier in the millennium, that refuse to upgrade.

I wake up every day and ask myself how I can be better, and how can I improve myself. I don't ask myself "how can I be slightly less crappy than yesterday?". I feel bad for anyone that does so.

Just because the game looks better than an early 1990s PC wargame, or a 1980s board game doesn't mean it's acceptable.

I appreciate the hard work by the devs, but this is probably something that should've been tasked to an artist.

Functionality doesn't mean a thing if the basics aren't in place.


< Message edited by MikeAP -- 2/6/2014 2:42:27 AM >

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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/6/2014 2:24:14 AM   
jenrick

 

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quote:

I dislike the maps because I can't tell the difference in elevations, which leads to poor intelligence prep of the battlefield, which then results in losing battles.


As mentioned previously take a look just below the map on the status line above the battle log/sub unit viewer. It will tell you the elevation, cover, and movement modifier for any hex you mouse over.

-Jenrick

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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/6/2014 4:08:04 AM   
jack54


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Okay...I'm in favor of 'wishlist' priority. Taking programming time away for nicer maps seems like a lot to give up. The thought of this game with varying route and waypoint orders is awesome. A wish list is posted elsewhere on the forum; if half of these are implemented this game will really be something special.
Just my opinion, gameplay first! New maps would be nice but these map are fine and there are modders...

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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/6/2014 9:15:21 AM   
Tazak

 

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Making maps pretty should be low on the list of priorities IMO, as jack54 notes the current set of maps are fine and there are a number of modders showing what their capable of doing in terms of 'improving' the current maps.

I see 3 aspects that will help grow this game, improvements and new features in game play, a greater number of maps, a greater number of scenarios and campaigns. What I'd like to see is us the community pulling together to help make this game great, we can do that by working on maps and scenarios/campaigns thus leaving the dev team to focus on game play features and improvements.
What I think we're short of at the moment is people producing new maps, which is leading to a shortage of new scenarios and campaigns (I've got 4 scenarios and 1 campaign in the works but I am graphically challenged so making fresh maps is my blocker)

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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/6/2014 11:41:26 AM   
CapnDarwin


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Tazak, we hope to remove a majority of the blockage with the mod guides and the map making template files with 2.03 early next week (barring any more disasters). This will help with making our "ugly but functional maps" easier and I'm sure the more graphically inclined can improve the basic graphics at the cost of losing the auto-values function of the Map Values editor in game.

@ Mike and others: I am at a loss on comments on elevations. The greens are distinct and MR did a great job of leaving elevation lines in the trees and failing that there are 3 places to get elevation info and a LOS overlay. Maybe it's a bit easier if there is 3d shading but in our case we did not have the time to deal with the additional headache of getting the auto-mapping to work with that function. Sadly having the best artist in the world wouldn't have got us 30 maps in the time we had. As stated earlier you can have a few pretty maps or a lot of functional maps. We do offer modding at almost every level of this system.

We did talk about maps briefly last night while dealing with this one stubborn bug holding up 2.03 and we will have a more constructive talk after 2.03 leaves the nest. So help me out on this. What specifically helps you see the elevations on a 2d map? Lets get a list going so we can use these as talking points in our Dev call on which direction we take on maps and future game content.

Thanks guys!

_____________________________

Work on Southern Storm continues and we will hopefully have news about our new website and even whispers of Beta Testing soon!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to Tazak)
Post #: 27
RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/6/2014 12:31:55 PM   
budd


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My $0.02, i find the maps perfectly functional and i'd rather they spend the time improving the game [i'm looking at editable waypoints here, first and foremost] and doing other content. If there's a way to make things easier for the modders i'm all for that as the maps are just awesome. as i'm a WW2 guy i cant wait for that stuff to come out and see how the system plays out with WW2 goodies.

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to CapnDarwin)
Post #: 28
RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/6/2014 2:18:14 PM   
cbelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: **budd**

[i'm looking at editable waypoints here, first and foremost]


That has been high on my wish list since my first involvement with this project. I have campaigned repeatedly for this issue and a few others. However, even as one on the development team, getting the game playable and functional has taken priority over our own wants.

Hopefully, we will eventually see this feature. Adding new features takes time. Ever time you make a small change it can effect another area in the game. That is why it takes time just to make small improvement. We have to make sure we are not breaking others parts of the game. Rob quit adding new features several weeks ago. For the past several weeks we have been chasing down the bugs that the improvements in 2.03 has caused. Chasing the bugs have been the cause of the delay. We didn't realize it would take this long. But hopefully as Capn D mentioned we are almost at the end of it.

On the bright side, Rob has a pretty good list going for what he wants to do for 2.04.

< Message edited by cbelva -- 2/6/2014 3:18:52 PM >

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RE: New official look of maps - in the future? - 2/6/2014 2:40:56 PM   
budd


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don't suppose we could get a peek at that list for 2.04

is 2.03 all about pbem? or are there other things in that patch.

< Message edited by **budd** -- 2/6/2014 3:44:43 PM >


_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

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