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RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth

 
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RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth - 2/2/2014 4:19:39 PM   
AndrewJ

 

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That's very similar to my play style too. Lots and lots of micro-management! In part because I enjoy the feeling of being in command of the sub, flying the aircraft, sitting at the ESM console, etc., and also because the human-assistant AI simply can't yet handle tactical decisions in an operational context. I don't mind handing off housekeeping details (and I'd like to hand off more), but for the rest I'm the tin-pot dictator, with more medals than a row of North Korean generals! If I give a command I expect my computerized minions to do it.


(in reply to Shemar)
Post #: 31
RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth - 2/2/2014 4:32:05 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shemar
Maybe if you saw my play style you would understand how out of touch with how I play this solution is. I do not use any missions (except ASW patrols) I micromanage everything, take offs and landings, weapon targetting and releases, routes, speeds and altitudes, I conduct aerial combat by keeping tight control of every single aircraft and spend much more time paused giving orders than with the clock running. So while I don't mind Ai assistance as long as I can turn it off (all AI options are off by default when I play) any AI behavior that overrides my own commands or is out of my control is by default in conflict with how I like to play the game.

More to the point, the reason I play this way is that the number of factors that go into every single decision, including somethng as 'simple' as snorkel or battery, is not only orders of magnitude more than what any AI could take into account but often includes information, desires and motivation the AI cannot possibly have. It is therefore utterly impossible to make AI that I would not want to override on occasion and probably quite often, even if you were programming the AI specifically to cater to my own desires and play style.

As for enemy AI, I do not consider that to be my problem. I know for a fact enemy AI is usually a blundering fool, but fortunately limited intelligence and fog of war hide most of that. Computer game AI is closer to running around like a headless chicken than human controlled behavior, once fully exposed. For example in just the last scenario I played, 7 F-16s and Mirage 1s were killed without offering any resistance, just loitering over their airfield while a strike force of 9 Phantom IIs and Mirage F1s also died at the hands of 4 Harriers without firing a single missile in defense. So my opinion is clearly that priority should be given to make the AI at least effectively defend itself, rather than try to second guess whether I want my sub to snorkel or not.

Indeed, each player chooses their own playstyle, and you have yours. However, if you reduce the game to full micromanagement, you can't expect the enemy AI to ever be able to compete with you on an equal footing. As you do recognise that, it means CMANO will always be an assymetric game for you no matter how the AI is improved, unless and until micromanagement-level multiplayer is implemented. in that context, adding more direct control to subs would be more of the same, and I have no disagreement with that.

However CMANO does provide missions, postures and configurations to reduce micromanagement and shift emphasis from hot-seat to planning, and my own playstyle is to make use of that where feasible. Where I avoid it, it's because it's not yet up to the job, but I will do so when that changes. In that context my argument is to enhance that approach, and I see this sub issue as a good example where that could be done. FWIW I also agree to improving AI defence ability, as that will benefit friendly as well as enemy performance if a hands-off approach is used. Symmetry maintained.

As for priorities, well, that's really the team's call - all we can do is to report problems and make suggestions. I see no reason why bug fixes, finessing and major enhancements can't all be worked on in the same time frame, dev man-hours permitting. I don't doubt CMANO is here for the long haul, so all these things may come to pass.

I tend to see "Command" in the title as referring to "Ops Room" commander rather than "cockpit" commander, but that's just me.

< Message edited by guanotwozero -- 2/2/2014 5:33:08 PM >

(in reply to Shemar)
Post #: 32
RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth - 2/2/2014 5:10:00 PM   
Shemar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndrewJ

That's very similar to my play style too. Lots and lots of micro-management! In part because I enjoy the feeling of being in command of the sub, flying the aircraft, sitting at the ESM console, etc., and also because the human-assistant AI simply can't yet handle tactical decisions in an operational context. I don't mind handing off housekeeping details (and I'd like to hand off more), but for the rest I'm the tin-pot dictator, with more medals than a row of North Korean generals! If I give a command I expect my computerized minions to do it.

If I could only get my minions to stop turning their radars AND SONARS on every time an itchy bitty missile is fired! Haha!


quote:

ORIGINAL: guanotwozero

However, if you reduce the game to full micromanagement, you can't expect the enemy AI to ever be able to compete with you on an equal footing.

The enemy AI will never be able to compete with me on an equal footing even if the CMANO developers hire 3 times their number and spend the next 10 years doing nothing but AI development. It just can't be done. So no I don't expect that, I expect the scenarios to put me in a distinct numerical or tactical disadvantage to offset the AI deficiencies or the scoring to be such that I need what amounts to overwhelmingly one sided kills to actually win.

quote:

However CMANO does provide missions, postures and configurations to reduce micromanagement and shift emphasis from hot-seat to planning, and my own playstyle is to make use of that where feasible. Where I avoid it, it's because it's not yet up to the job, but I will do so when that changes. In that context my argument is to enhance that approach, and I see this sub issue as a good example where that could be done.

I don't argue with your needs, just that your solution does not address mine

< Message edited by Shemar -- 2/2/2014 6:10:31 PM >

(in reply to guanotwozero)
Post #: 33
RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth - 2/2/2014 5:20:37 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shemar
The enemy AI will never be able to compete with me on an equal footing even if the CMANO developers hire 3 times their number and spend the next 10 years doing nothing but AI development. It just can't be done. So no I don't expect that, I expect the scenarios to put me in a distinct numerical or tactical disadvantage to offset the AI deficiencies or the scoring to be such that I need what amounts to overwhelmingly one sided kills to actually win.

Maybe IBM will donate their latest chess grand-master beating machine and AI team for the cause?

quote:

I don't argue with your needs, just that your solution does not address mine

Fair enough! It does say a lot about the depth of this game where it attracts people with very different playstyles.

(in reply to Shemar)
Post #: 34
RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth - 2/2/2014 9:03:12 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shemar

As for enemy AI, I do not consider that to be my problem. I know for a fact enemy AI is usually a blundering fool, but fortunately limited intelligence and fog of war hide most of that. Computer game AI is closer to running around like a headless chicken than human controlled behavior, once fully exposed. For example in just the last scenario I played, 7 F-16s and Mirage 1s were killed without offering any resistance, just loitering over their airfield while a strike force of 9 Phantom IIs and Mirage F1s also died at the hands of 4 Harriers without firing a single missile in defense. So my opinion is clearly that priority should be given to make the AI at least effectively defend itself, rather than try to second guess whether I want my sub to snorkel or not.


It does sound bad but I think having defensive missions set up might have helped. There is kind of two things going on. You likely have some definite weaknesses and exploits with the AI that the developers must fix, no denying that. You also have some definite weaknesses in scenario design primarily because the game is new and people are still working on what works and what doesn't. Both of these things will be remedied with time and player and developer improvements. Its what shakes out in the end that counts. It is just a matter if your willing to wait it out or help. I do not think banging on the developers or scenario writer will move that forward.

Thanks!

Mike

_____________________________


(in reply to Shemar)
Post #: 35
RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth - 2/2/2014 9:13:30 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: guanotwozero


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shemar
The enemy AI will never be able to compete with me on an equal footing even if the CMANO developers hire 3 times their number and spend the next 10 years doing nothing but AI development. It just can't be done. So no I don't expect that, I expect the scenarios to put me in a distinct numerical or tactical disadvantage to offset the AI deficiencies or the scoring to be such that I need what amounts to overwhelmingly one sided kills to actually win.

Maybe IBM will donate their latest chess grand-master beating machine and AI team for the cause?


I don't disagree that our AI will never be as good as a human. That's not our goal.Our goal is to develop something reasonable that you guys will have fun with. We get there by learning about how people play the game and making improvements.

Thanks!

Mike


< Message edited by mikmyk -- 2/2/2014 10:14:13 PM >


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Post #: 36
RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth - 2/2/2014 9:16:21 PM   
Dimitris


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shemar
If I could only get my minions to stop turning their radars AND SONARS on every time an itchy bitty missile is fired! Haha!


To better understand what is up with that, you have to place yourself in the following tactical problem:
Your surface group is electronically silent. You (somehow) detect an incoming weapon that appears to be heading towards one or more members of the group. Do you (a) hold EMCON silence and pray or (b) light up everything in order to get a more complete tactical picture (you detected one missile - who's to say there aren't 100 more out there?) and eliminate the _clear and present danger_ to your asset(s)?
(And before you say it - yes, there are more than these two options in RL. Let's focus on these two for now)

Harpoon usually did the former, and that was a source of endless "why is the stupid AI not lighting up its radars to blast that missile out of the sky?!!" bug reports. It also meant that e.g. once you knocked out the enemy's AEW cover the whole enemy group (if it maintained EMCON silence) was practically a duck shoot.

Command does the latter. Is it perfect? No. Does it cover each and every case? No. Is it _more rational if you put yourself in the shoes of the captain of the group flagship_? Yes, we think so. Do we intend to improve it so it covers more cases and what-ifs? Yes.

Thanks.


< Message edited by Sunburn -- 2/2/2014 10:18:58 PM >


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Post #: 37
RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth - 2/2/2014 9:38:46 PM   
Shemar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

It does sound bad but I think having defensive missions set up might have helped.


This is a quick reply before reading the rest of your post because I need to address it immediately. The above statement was not meant as a criticism to the game or the developer team. It was meant as a general comment on how computer game AI (any computer game not just this one) is bad at even things that to a human seem obvious and self evident and how much complicated work it is to make it behave even marginally 'intelligent'.

Edit having read the rest of the post: Like I said above that was not meant as a criticism. I am enjoying the game very much. Having said that, since you do mention me (or us) helping to improve the game, I am most certainly willing to do so.

< Message edited by Shemar -- 2/2/2014 10:42:50 PM >

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 38
RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth - 2/2/2014 9:54:00 PM   
Shemar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunburn

Command does the latter. Is it perfect? No. Does it cover each and every case? No. Is it _more rational if you put yourself in the shoes of the captain of the group flagship_? Yes, we think so. Do we intend to improve it so it covers more cases and what-ifs? Yes.


Guys please don't take my comments and rants against computer AI personally. They are not meant as attacks. As you said you will never get computer AI to act like a human, nor do I expect you to.

If you want to see some (hopefully constructive) criticism to all of the above, take this:
I hate having the AI override my decisions. I understand that giving us players complete control may be contrary to the design goeals you have for the game and even contrary to what many of the players wish, but from my point of view not having the AI override my orders based on some internal logic would take my game enjoyment from 70% to 95%, because honestly, in every scenario I have played that is the one big thing I have not liked.

Once again, let me stress that I understand that is probably not the direction you want to take the game, so please don't take my anti-AI commentary personally.

Addition:
To the actual point: I never had a problem with Harpoon staying silent. If I wanted the sensors on, I paused the game and turn them on. Just as I (would like to) do with CMANO. And in any case I would never turn every active sensor in the entire fleet on, including sonars, navigation radars and weapon directors. I would turn selective sensors on, starting with the search radars of the pickets and seeing what I got from there. Turning every sensor on not only does not add to the information I would get but also gives away the exact composition of my entire force. I don't know how much of that information is actually useful to the computer AI against me, but still, just for immersion purposes, it would be nice to have control over that.

Further edit since you mention the opponent AI: I am not saying don't have the AI turn everything on, all I am saying is give me a RoE option to turn that off on my own ships.

< Message edited by Shemar -- 2/2/2014 11:08:57 PM >

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 39
RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth - 3/24/2015 3:52:02 AM   
Felcas

 

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Why don't use an option on doctrine to override the use of diesel even when contacts are nearby?

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RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth - 3/24/2015 11:09:36 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Logic will be reverted to always charge when at periscope or surfaced next build. Pretty sure that as long as the sub is under AI control they'll dive when an enemy is detected.

We made a change based on a number of player requests only to discover they are hated by an equal number After recovering from our burns we decided to revert.

Mike

< Message edited by mikmyk -- 3/25/2015 12:11:50 AM >


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RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth - 3/25/2015 4:10:39 PM   
kaburke61

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikmyk

Logic will be reverted to always charge when at periscope or surfaced next build. Pretty sure that as long as the sub is under AI control they'll dive when an enemy is detected.

We made a change based on a number of player requests only to discover they are hated by an equal number After recovering from our burns we decided to revert.

Mike


Thanks guys! Barring a toggle, this will make my sub-ops games (which is my favorite) easier to manage.

(in reply to mikmykWS)
Post #: 42
RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth - 3/25/2015 5:53:18 PM   
StellarRat

 

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"Of course it is. Any computer program is limited to a single responce under a specific set of circumstances* Unless you make the AI randomply pick from a set of possible responses, but that is a horrible idea for player side AI (great for computer AI though). " - I'm not so sure it's a bad thing even with player AI. After all, you've given the "Captain" an order, how he carries it out isn't really your concern. Otherwise, we should just micro-manage every single thing in the game. I have no problem with fuzzy logic being applied to things as the long as the decisions are what a "reasonable" human might do. It's particularly good when the opposing AI does it as you pointed because it prevents "sameness" and predictability.

(in reply to Shemar)
Post #: 43
RE: Subs not recharging at Periscope/Surface Depth - 3/25/2015 9:48:57 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Felcas posted into an old string so you're responding to a really old post.

Mike

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