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Surrender and benefits? - 1/4/2014 7:25:49 PM   
Klydon


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So I am on something like my 7th global game.

The current situation is Sept/Oct 40. Germany is apparently going for something other than Barbarrosa as there has been some ship building, etc.

Italy is at war with France, but not the CW.

In France, the Germans passed several opportunities to take Paris, although Paris has a fairly strong stack in it (15 points including a AA unit). By the end of the turn, there were just ground units in Paris, 2 units close to the Italian borders and a unit guarding the French fleet in Marseilles. The Germans control all other French factories and the only French ground unit coming in was a garrison. The Allies tried to do a all pass twice and failed both times to end the turn. (first time was a 40%, second time was a 60%). The first pass didn't hurt too bad. Missing the second one was bad because it allowed the Germans to occupy the factory in Toulouse.

The French were offered a chance to surrender and they did so. This allowed the bulk of the French fleet to escape.

So the question would be, was this the right thing to do as the French?

The second thing going on really isn't connected to this, but deals with the Chinese. I tried a bit of a different Japanese strategy this time and just loaded up against the Communists. Yamamoto and the two marine units headed in to help there. The HQ that starts in China was also there a the group was also reinforced by the motorized that starts in Manchuria. The Manchuria HQ railed down to support the very small army in the center. Long story short, the Japanese just blasted the Chi-Coms. The Chi-Coms saw what was happening and immediately started to try to run. It was a fighting with-drawl until the end. (All units were either in a city or in the mountains). In the end, the Japanese just had too much and the Jul/Aug turn ran too long and the Chi-Coms have no cities left under their control.
After pushing forward a bit, the Nationalist Chinese figured out there was not much they were going to be able to do in terms of putting enough pressure on the Japanese to get them to stop the push against the Chi-Coms and by moving forward, the Nationalists were actually opening themselves up to the Japanese army that had a lot of units now closer to Chunking than they had. They have since started to pull back, but as everyone knows, this is a slow process. It now appears the Japanese can come screaming down from the north and get Chunking, etc. It will take them time to do that obviously, but I think the Chinese are basically cooked in this scenario. The Nationalist army is almost at full strength at this point, but production has dropped off and the Burma road is closed. The situation with the Japanese is such that it may be a bit before the US can demand the road be open again.
The Chinese were offered a chance to surrender and they passed for the moment.

So the question here would be is that the right thing to do with the Chinese at this point? (production for them last turn was 4). The benefit would be catching Yamato and both big Marine units deep in China and the Japanese stuck going to combines until they are at war again.

US Entry has been a big disappointment for the Allies.

It currently stands at 21 and 4 for the Euro Axis (this after France has fallen) (When Russia occupied Poland, that caused a chit to be pulled and when they demanded Bessarabia, that was another chit. The UK has not declared war on Italy in part because of the low US entry and because the Italian navy has not been real active. The only real thing going on in the Med has been the Axis coming after Greece and the Italians heading west to take out the French possessions in North Africa.

For Japan it is 18 and 7. (every chit pulled for the Japanese pool has been a 1).

Post #: 1
RE: Surrender and benefits? - 1/4/2014 8:16:00 PM   
WarHunter


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What you have happening in your game is exactly the reason i don't like to play with the option, Chinese attack weakness. It does a poor job of balancing and a great job of hamstringing the Chinese overall. What you did is a Japanese dream. Crushing the only real force that can attack in China.

As far as surrendering goes. Don't do it until there is 1 factory left as the Chinese. Make it a turn by turn decision, Then make the choice. Make the Japanese garrison and redeploy for as long as possible. Play it out for no other reason than seeing how bad it can get.

Your situation in France is not something i have experience dealing with. Usually I'd just wait til Paris falls and make the German player choose.

Thanks for sharing and Good Luck in the current game you have.

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“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
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RE: Surrender and benefits? - 1/4/2014 9:05:48 PM   
Klydon


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Until this run through, I would have never considered not playing with the Chinese weakness rule. Now, I can sort of see why and I don't know if it would have made that big of a difference. I had a beefy unit in Canton and the few other units in the middle were well positioned to the point that the Chinese would have had issues making any headway. The big issue I see early for the Nationalist is the mobility issues for their HQ. (I play with the harder mobility for HQs. May have to rethink that, although playing without it makes it harder on Russia should the Germans decide to invade).

(in reply to WarHunter)
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RE: Surrender and benefits? - 1/4/2014 9:10:46 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
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What were the Nationalist Chinese doing when the Communists were being attacked? If Japan uses so many units to kill the Communists, the Nationalists should advance and try to move around any Japanese units left against them. Even with Chinese Attack Weakness on, the Japanese can't have Chinese units walking around them and trying to retake cities.

There is no way the Japanese can have a complete front against the Chinese. China is far to big to do so. So threathen to put the few Japanese units which are defending against the Nationalist out of supply and force the Japanese to make front against Nationalist units to lighten the burden on the Communists...






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Peter

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RE: Surrender and benefits? - 1/4/2014 9:33:16 PM   
WarHunter


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The problem is that we are at the precipice. We can't cross over to the other side until the bridge is finished.

One mind playing 2 sides is never going to reach a fair assessment of the China theater of command. Neither for the Chinese or the Japanese in its new current form. We need two minds for 2 sides, in active competition. When the same hand moves both sides of the equation, Random luck can only go so far.

I want to play against your theory Centuur.

MWiF was never intended to be played solo. Its a social game and as such needs its wings to fly. Then we can explore your valid point of maneuver over power. We can then lift the veil from this and other mysteries. Especially in the Asian/Pacific Theater of Operations.


_____________________________


“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 5
RE: Surrender and benefits? - 1/4/2014 10:58:58 PM   
Klydon


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@ Centuur. The Nationalist set up was very conservative, based on how much of a hammering they have taken in my previous games. Their main line was along the Yangtze, around Changsha and into the mountain to the east. There were three units screening Canton.

The Japanese forces in the area were set up in Nanchang. The Shanghai Warlord and a division cleared the rails of Chinese control and set up in the hex SE of Nanchang to keep the lines of communication open. There were 2 armies and a AA unit in the area. The Japanese also had a unit in Wuhan and moved another division to clear the rail line to the north. A 6-3 infantry and marine division started in Canton, making it all but impervious to attack. Most of the Japanese air was set up in the north with fighter protection in the center and south. The Japanese were able to complete all these actions because the weather was guaranteed to be clear. After that, you get what you get with the weather and in the south, it isn't very good. The Japanese had some time to rail in the Manchurian HQ and another unit to fortify the defenses in the area in the south while the bulk of the army was busy maneuvering in the north.

I found the Nationalists to be held up by the two swamps (makes it extremely hard to get enough on Wuhan without leaving an opening south of the swamps that is weak enough that the Japanese can do something with the units they have in the area. Going for Canton is a waste. The Japanese will simply move in another army, putting it out of reach for any sane Chinese attack, but the Chinese have to keep an eye on Canton or watch the Japanese land some weak units and push in a bit. Granted, they can't go far without HQ support, but the Chinese have to be there to keep them from moving too far.


(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 6
RE: Surrender and benefits? - 1/5/2014 9:49:54 AM   
Centuur


Posts: 8496
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

The problem is that we are at the precipice. We can't cross over to the other side until the bridge is finished.

One mind playing 2 sides is never going to reach a fair assessment of the China theater of command. Neither for the Chinese or the Japanese in its new current form. We need two minds for 2 sides, in active competition. When the same hand moves both sides of the equation, Random luck can only go so far.

I want to play against your theory Centuur.

MWiF was never intended to be played solo. Its a social game and as such needs its wings to fly. Then we can explore your valid point of maneuver over power. We can then lift the veil from this and other mysteries. Especially in the Asian/Pacific Theater of Operations.



I agree...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 7
RE: Surrender and benefits? - 1/5/2014 7:39:41 PM   
Majorball68


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With the Japanese lined up in force against the Chi-Coms the Nationalists need to move some of their army north ASAP. The Japanese can't attack everywhere and will struggle to make any advance in the south. If possible the Chi-Com mountain corps should be built ASAP as this can slow the Japanese down a lot. Also when it is possible to retreat think about the benefits of the Blitzrieg CRT as you can preserve a lot of units should results fall your way. At start I defend Chengchow with a 4-1 garrison and the 4-3 Chungking Militia and the hex directly NE of Chengchow I use the 2-2 Kunming Militia(Bait). The 3-1 garrison I put in the mountains 2 hexes south of Chengchow. Theory is if the Japs go north they can have the easy kill on the 2-2 Militia at start or risky low odds attack on Chengchow and to get a non river attack on Chengchow it will take a few turns to move into position from the south. Both Militia can be rebuilt in a single turn if required so I always use these in must hold areas so if they get destroyed hopefully they take a few Japs with them. It slows them down a lot and if you can hold Chengchow for a few impulses at the start the weather can turn nasty. Some of the Nationalists should be moving north into the mountain range near Sian. The Militia that cant be rebuilt like Peking, Canton etc I put them in low risk areas in the mountains down south. I always keep my fighter in the early impulse at Chungking as it will get destroyed quickly going against the Jap fighters. Better to stop the 2 BP hit on Chungking. In later impulse should the Japs use a fighter for ground support and the Naval bomber has flown a strategic bombing mission you may be able to re base your fighter forward to a position where it can offer ground support without being intercepted. Always think about the weather and supply. Nothing worse than not being able to move back because the MP will flip your Chinese units. Also the dreaded flip flop 2 turns in a row can be devastating to the Chinese. Also look to end a turn early by passing if your position wont be compromised to avoid a double turn. Saying all that the best way to defeat the Chinese is to hit the Chi-Coms hard as there are less mountains to pass thru.

I don't play with HQ movement or Chinese attack weakness.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 8
RE: Surrender and benefits? - 1/7/2014 12:04:07 AM   
brian brian

 

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pretty much all of what Majorball68 said.

I have played the Chinese using the current rules and counter set with the euro-scale map from CWiF many times. With Nationalist Attack Weakness, no extra Chinese Cities, and also with HQ movement and seen them survive just fine almost every time. Sometimes a particularly sunny 1940 and 1941 can get a little tough on them.

The main thing to do is if the Japanese are close to taking Lan-Chow, the ChiComms need to send a 1-4 Infantry or 1-5 Cavalry division down towards Cheng-Tu, to convert it to a ChiComm city so the Chinese don't lose the ChiComm units from the force pool. The Cheng-Tu Warlord might need to make a suicide attack before it disappears from the map when this happens, if any Japanese are within reach.

By the time the Japanese can take Lan-Chow, their flanks will be so stretched the Nationalists should be able to accomplish something, somewhere.

A more devastating Japanese strategy than going straight for the Commies, immediately, is to let the Nationalists build out their force pool first, then start simultaneously attacking only the ChiComms, screening the Nationalists, and launching a serious strategic bombing offensive on the Chinese factories. The Japanese can frequently wipe out all of China's production each turn and the ChiComms will soon be toast.

To prevent all this, the Nationalists need to defend Cheng-Chow, strongly. It is the key to the Chinese rail network, a very important node in it. That net is a fascinating bit of the game. The more nodes the Japanese have, the easier they can get around Partisan outbreaks or Chinese cavalry raids. If the Nationalists give up some units at Cheng-Chow, it should give the ChiComms enough time to build up their forces during the first winter of the war.

And the Chinese should always maneuver their units to be able to survive a Shatter result on the Blitz combat table (a valid retreat path).

Instead many players build an impressive Nationalist line anywhere but Cheng-Chow, and always call the Assault table in combat, hoping to bloody the Japanese. Instead it is the Chinese who run out of units … then the bombing starts.

(in reply to Majorball68)
Post #: 9
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