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Move order vs Explore

 
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Move order vs Explore - 1/2/2014 11:37:40 AM   
Antmf_slith

 

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Hey guys, been watching youtube videos on this game. Trying to relearn :) Anyways, the video I am watching shows the player using the move to command to go to new planets in his system when he first started for his explorers as opposed to explore. What is the difference and why would he use move as opposed to explore? and what is the best way to explore? Do I go planet to planet or explore system or should I use move?
P.S. is there a way to edit qued orders that show up when you dbl click on a ship?
Post #: 1
RE: Move order vs Explore - 1/2/2014 12:32:05 PM   
Icemania


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Very early game for nearby systems I'll explore whole systems (approximately 1-1.5 sectors in a circle around my homeworld) until strategic supplies are completely in hand (the search for Chromium sometimes needs a little more effort) and a good chunk of luxuries.

However, after that, once an unexplored system is reached using "move to", I would only explore:
(a) Planets with Ruins
(b) Debris Fields (repairable ships, world destroyers)
(c) Planets that could have Super Luxuries (i.e. always certain types)

If nothing interesting then "move to" the next system. Some may explore Colonisable Planets but I tend to leave them until a second wave (unless they are nearby).

This massively decreases the time required to find targets of strategic interest, which provide significant benefits to a growing empire ... as compared to exploring every useless ball of rock and gas giant in existence.

The problem with this is that it's really intensive on the micro.

Vastly improved Explorer AI is needed.


< Message edited by Icemania -- 1/2/2014 1:32:30 PM >

(in reply to Antmf_slith)
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RE: Move order vs Explore - 1/2/2014 12:40:09 PM   
Canute0

 

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The scripts for explorer are since the 1. release improved but still not "perfect".

Depend how many micromanagment you like to do.
The best would be you let the explorer do their job system by system and you allways decide what system they need to investigate next.
Next best are you let them explore sectors and you just send them to the next sector after they are idle (thats what i prefer).

quote:

is there a way to edit qued orders that show up when you dbl click on a ship?

Not so far i know, you just can delete all queued orders.
Yep it would be very helpful when you could delete just the last queued order instead of all.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 3
RE: Move order vs Explore - 1/2/2014 1:03:36 PM   
Icemania


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Yeah, but to an optimisation freak like me, anything other than "move to" is so pathetically slow ... I just can't handle it!!!

(in reply to Canute0)
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RE: Move order vs Explore - 1/2/2014 1:46:32 PM   
elanaagain


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I do as Icemainia does, with one minor exception: my first few explorers (that have full warp capability) 'move to' the nearby systems and continue outward. I use some of my second wave of explorers to fully explore nearby systems for mining opportunities. Basically, I balance exploration of nearby systems against what resources are left in my home system to mine/exploit. Only when mining my home system is almost complete (constructors will soon need new projects) do I send explorers to fully explore (get resource data) nearby systems.

(in reply to Icemania)
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RE: Move order vs Explore - 1/3/2014 8:59:10 AM   
sbach2o

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Antmf

Hey guys, been watching youtube videos on this game. Trying to relearn :) Anyways, the video I am watching shows the player using the move to command to go to new planets in his system when he first started for his explorers as opposed to explore. What is the difference and why would he use move as opposed to explore? and what is the best way to explore?


The sensors on exploration ships are initially extremely short-ranged. I think they cover not even a gas giant from one of its moon, unless, maybe, the moon is at an extremely close orbit. I guess the author of the video you were watching was trying to set some priorities in exploration. You typically do not want to know about the resources of each asteroid that early.

The primary difference to the 'explore' command is just that you are picking the explorer's path using 'move-to', while an automated 'explore' seems to pick the nearest unexplored object (within the context that is to be explored) next, when it decides the current object has been sufficiently explored.

There is, however, some crazy optimization potential when you are managing explorers with lots of queued 'move-to' orders: both, 'move-to' and 'explore' will waste lots of time actually moving to the object being explored. The exploration ship tends to linger far longer than necessary around the object it is scouting, actually continuing to move there after the resource data has been retrieved. Note, that an explorer under 'explore' doesn't seem to act any differently; it's exploration seems just to be composed of 'move-tos' under the hood.

Now, when you catch an explorer with queued 'move-to' commands near a target, you can simply issue a 'stop'. This just stops the first order in the queue (actually replaces the 'move-to' by a short-lived pause), making the ship immediately (well, almost) switch to the next one without wasting more time. The time gains can be significant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Antmf

Do I go planet to planet or explore system or should I use move?


The selection of targets when using 'move-to' orders on explorers can be one of the trickiest problems in this game, depending on how thorough you want to be. Icemania's tips are on spot, my approach is similar:

* Pre-warp, when I am interested in my local system, I explore part of that with 'move-to' and, once this is done, let the initial explorers handle the rest with an 'explore'.
* When scouting the neighborhood, I switch to 'move-to' between systems, only. By that time I always have the second tier resource sensor tech (medium range) researched, so my explorers will, from near the star they're set to move to, cover the inner planets of each system. The goal in this stage is just to cover the basics of each system and to do this quickly: Are there habitable planets, independent civilizations, ruins, scenic or research locations, abandoned ships?
* When the explorers have just warp bubble drive, I typically command them to explore some more planets in interesting systems. For this it is good to have a feel for how long the reach of the medium tier resource sensors is.
* When there are ruins, I'll always divert the explorer which has just reached the system to explore these.
* When there are independents, I might check through a gas giant or two for a suitable fuel source.
* (edit:) Almost forgot about abandoned ships/bases; those (and ruins) are the reason you absolutely want to be faster than any AI in exploration. And they are the reason, micromanaging all this exploration is such an enormous pita. The problem is that, without long range sensor coverage, abandoned structures will be invisible to you, unless you have at least a ship in the system. So with all these explorers with queued up 'move-to' orders, you still have to catch them in each system between when they come out of warp and leave, if you do not want to miss potential abandoned ships. This is why queueing up 'move-tos' is dicey. It's convenient, but it would be safer to just move to one system. Then, the explorer might go idle, if you do not catch it before that, but you eliminate the potential to miss something.

The picture changes somewhat when the highest tier sensor tech (long range) is available. This covers most, but not quite all, orbits of a medium to large sized system. Simply by going from star to star you'll explore most of each system. Then I don't need to bother diverting explorers for anything but ancient ruins (and undamaged abandoned structures, of course). Otherwise they just go through 'move-to' commands between systems (queued-up or not, depending on how convenient vs. safe I want to have it).

To get the outer fringes of systems explored, I usually have a few explorers with 'explore sector' commands. This 'explore sector' can also be optimized, simply by renewing the command each time, immediately after such an explorer comes out of warp, btw. This way, even these explorers do not waste too much time actually moving to objects.

Because the long range sensor tech eases the handling of the explorer fleet and boosts its efficiency so much, it is pretty high on my research priorities. But there is so much other indispensable stuff in the Hi Tech area! For example, I never can decide whether to get it before or after Long Range Sensors, having half the research cost (iirc), but then you have to compare that to the power of explorers being able to make out non-cloaked abandoned ships and bases from some distance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Antmf

P.S. is there a way to edit qued orders that show up when you dbl click on a ship?


You can remove the front order by issuing a 'stop', or you can clear the entire queue.

You can also replace the front order in the queue by any other order than 'stop'. For example, if you catch an explorer which has just found a system with ancient ruins before it has finished the 'move-to' to said system's star, you can issue an order to move to the planet bearing the ruins without disturbing the rest of the queue.

Actually, giving orders to ships which have other commands queued up, can lead to amazingly confusing, or at least unexpected, results.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icemania

Yeah, but to an optimisation freak like me, anything other than "move to" is so pathetically slow ... I just can't handle it!!!


Indeed, but 'move-to' is also still slow, as outlined above.

< Message edited by sbach2o -- 1/3/2014 10:44:18 AM >

(in reply to Antmf_slith)
Post #: 6
RE: Move order vs Explore - 1/3/2014 12:39:17 PM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sbach2o
There is, however, some crazy optimization potential when you are managing explorers with lots of queued 'move-to' orders: both, 'move-to' and 'explore' will waste lots of time actually moving to the object being explored. The exploration ship tends to linger far longer than necessary around the object it is scouting, actually continuing to move there after the resource data has been retrieved. Note, that an explorer under 'explore' doesn't seem to act any differently; it's exploration seems just to be composed of 'move-tos' under the hood.

Now, when you catch an explorer with queued 'move-to' commands near a target, you can simply issue a 'stop'. This just stops the first order in the queue (actually replaces the 'move-to' by a short-lived pause), making the ship immediately (well, almost) switch to the next one without wasting more time. The time gains can be significant.


Good points sback2o. I used to play by checking every explorer manually every few game days, well before the 'move-to' order was complete, where appropriate stop them, and then issue new move-to commands. This level of micromanagement has completely defeated me, particularly with the large maps I prefer to play with.


(in reply to sbach2o)
Post #: 7
RE: Move order vs Explore - 1/3/2014 3:01:16 PM   
Plant


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yeah, it is extremely micro intensive. Still, in the early parts of the game, where you aren't doing much but exploring, it is worthwhile to manually control your explorers.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 8
RE: Move order vs Explore - 1/3/2014 10:05:37 PM   
Antmf_slith

 

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Thank you for all your replies. Being a total noob I have a couple of more questions to ask here as opposed to starting a new thread.

1- In the beginning when doing nothing but explore is it better to use explore command or move and when do I set them to auto?

2- Also when starting a new game as a noob do I set all automation on na dsuggest everything? What do you guys suggest so I can start getting the hang of the game? Thanks again...

(in reply to Plant)
Post #: 9
RE: Move order vs Explore - 1/3/2014 10:40:15 PM   
Euler

 

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For exploring, I did this on my most recent game and I thought it went pretty well:
1. Create a first wave of explorer ships with super long range to get to all the goodies-ships and ruins. Manually control these ships with "move to" commands just to get a scan of each system and then move to the next one if there is nothing interesting to explore.
2. Create a second wave of explorer ships to scan all the planets for resources-I set these to "explore" so they will check out all the planets in the nearby systems. This helps decide where to build mining stations.

I played my first game with most settings on auto and watched what the computer did. When I wanted to change something I would turn automation off for a bit to see what would happen and then turn it back on as appropriate.

(in reply to Antmf_slith)
Post #: 10
RE: Move order vs Explore - 1/4/2014 10:43:23 AM   
Canute0

 

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quote:

1- In the beginning when doing nothing but explore is it better to use explore command or move and when do I set them to auto?

When you read the postings here you should know that you never put an explorer on automation at beginning ! :-))
Without hyperdrine, 3-4 explorer move to to the planets at your solarsystem, mosttimes at different direction.
With warp bubble, 1 explorer to nearby solarsystems, don't forget to add extra fuel tanks
With Gerax hyperdrive, 1 explorer for each sector around your homesector are minimum. More are better, there are so many goodies at space, you don't want that a pirate or other empire catch them before you ! :-)

At the beginning its more important that you explore things then you have military power. Since your military ships are pretty weak compared to the pirates you shouldn't wast money,resources and maintanace cost to them, build more explorer instead.
When you find an abandon ship you have more firepower then 5-10 of your own ships.

quote:

2- Also when starting a new game as a noob do I set all automation on na dsuggest everything? What do you guys suggest so I can start getting the hang of the game?

Keep then on at the beginning, until you got a feeling how it works and if you can do it better.
Yes mosttimes a player can handle it better or got different view how to handle things then the AI.
But at several things the AI doing a good job, you need to find out what you enjoy self and what you wan't let the AI do.


(in reply to Euler)
Post #: 11
RE: Move order vs Explore - 1/4/2014 12:41:43 PM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Euler
For exploring, I did this on my most recent game and I thought it went pretty well:
1. Create a first wave of explorer ships with super long range to get to all the goodies-ships and ruins. Manually control these ships with "move to" commands just to get a scan of each system and then move to the next one if there is nothing interesting to explore.
2. Create a second wave of explorer ships to scan all the planets for resources-I set these to "explore" so they will check out all the planets in the nearby systems. This helps decide where to build mining stations.

I played my first game with most settings on auto and watched what the computer did. When I wanted to change something I would turn automation off for a bit to see what would happen and then turn it back on as appropriate.

Normally top priority is to get the resources in shape so you can fulfil whatever your expansions plans are without unnecessary delays. I'd encourage you to do this in the first wave.



(in reply to Euler)
Post #: 12
RE: Move order vs Explore - 1/4/2014 12:45:00 PM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plant
yeah, it is extremely micro intensive. Still, in the early parts of the game, where you aren't doing much but exploring, it is worthwhile to manually control your explorers.

Oh I agree, I never have on Explorer on Auto, it's just a question on how manual the manual is.

I just started a new game to remind myself how annoying the micro was with the way I used to play (i.e. move-to, but checking every few days, issuing stop commands, then more move-to).

The exploration aspect of Distant Worlds is great, but it took vastly longer to play the first year after Gerax, than it did to play all the preceeding years, and my exploration fleet is still small ...






(in reply to Plant)
Post #: 13
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