Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Flashpoint Campaigns Series >> Mods and Scenarios >> Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 12/18/2013 1:11:47 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline

I'm starting this thread just for the map making efforts of those interested. This is one of the most challenging locations in the world that I know of.

The area is the A Shau Valley of South Vietnam. It was the location of many firefights and small unit actions during the Vietnam War. It is also the home of a mountain called Dong Ap Bia by the locals. This mountain would become famous in US military history as Hamburger Hill.

There are some parameter changes I'd like to make in regards to the map for this location. Our Vietnam/WWII/Korea/Falklands/Small Actions part of the series will be done in a map scale of 250 meters per hex. With that in mind, I'd like this map to be done in a 250 meter per hex size.

We currently have 10 elevation levels. I'm not entirely sure if Dong Ap Bia can be done in 10 elevation levels. That's what we are here to find out. What will this beast take to recreate? It may not be as bad as I currently think it is.

I will be supplying maps and information about both the battle and the mountain as we go.

To start with for anyone interested in the battle itself, which was part of Operation Apache Snow, you can find out about it here:

http://ehistory.osu.edu/vietnam/essays/battlecommand/index.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hamburger_Hill

A full list of operations run in the A Shau Valley is:

Operation Deleware (April - May 1968)
Operation Dewey Canyon (Feb - March 1969)
Operation Apache Snow (May 1969)

http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~tpilsch/AirOps/AShau.html

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 12/18/2013 2:26:23 PM >

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

Post #: 1

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 12/18/2013 1:13:49 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline

Here is the basic location of the A Shau Valley.

Good Hunting.

MR

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 2

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 12/18/2013 1:15:08 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline

Here is a 1/250,000 scale topographical map of the area. The three main areas of concern for Operation Apache Snow are marked on this map.

Good Hunting.

MR

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 12/18/2013 2:16:42 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 3

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 12/18/2013 1:28:04 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline

Here is another general area map of the A Shau Valley.

Good Hunting.

MR

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 4

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 12/18/2013 5:38:21 PM

Jamm

Posts: 408
Joined: 10/2/2009
Status: offline

Thanks MR.
I'll see what I can do.

_____________________________

When the going gets weird,... the weird turn pro
Hunter S Thompson

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Jamm-works/669418463128598?ref=bookmarks

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 5

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 12/18/2013 5:55:17 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline

I'll see if I can get the exact GE location of the mountain.

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

(in reply to Jamm)

Post #: 6

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 12/18/2013 6:59:29 PM

MikeGER

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/1/2011
Status: offline

with the Gmap tool (i had learned about when playing CMANO) i am able to retriev 'Opencycle maps' with height line up to zoom level 16
... the example here is only zoom level 13
Hill 16.253 N 107.175 E

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MikeGER -- 12/18/2013 8:04:30 PM >

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 7

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 12/18/2013 7:08:36 PM

MikeGER

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/1/2011
Status: offline

max zoom

Attachment (1)

(in reply to MikeGER)

Post #: 8

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 12/18/2013 9:20:55 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline

I found Hamburger Hill in Google Earth. I put my cursor over the Vietnamese memorial for the battle. You can see the lat/long in the bottom right of the screen shot for where that memorial is.

This doesn't seem to be an exact location for the picture to be placed on GE because I believe the hill itself is over 900 meters tall. 930 IRRC.

The yellow line that comes in and leaves on the left side is the border with Laos.

Good Hunting.

MR

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 12/18/2013 10:23:33 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to MikeGER)

Post #: 9

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 12/18/2013 9:31:09 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline

Here is the color key for our 10 elevation levels.

Good Hunting.

MR

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 10

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 12/19/2013 7:17:22 PM

Jamm

Posts: 408
Joined: 10/2/2009
Status: offline

I've got a working copy, contour map done, Hamburger Hill on the lower left.
250m hexes and 50m contour lines.
The lines will be re-shaped to better suit the hexes and gameplay.
A lot of work to do yet

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

When the going gets weird,... the weird turn pro
Hunter S Thompson

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Jamm-works/669418463128598?ref=bookmarks

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 11

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 12/19/2013 9:12:29 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline

Interesting map elevations. I see the peak on the east side of the valley as being a really high one.

The map looks really good. Another big issue will be that most of this terrain on the hills/peaks are covered in jungle. How to show the elevations with terrain that is covered has always been an issue.

Is this scale at 250 meters per hex?

The map looks really good so far.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 12/19/2013 10:15:51 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Jamm)

Post #: 12

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 12/21/2013 1:53:12 PM

Enigma6584

Posts: 306
Joined: 9/23/2010
Status: offline

Very well done indeed. Interesting to see the development of this.

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 13

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 12/21/2013 7:22:55 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline

From a game standpoint it is going to be interesting to determine which terrain in a hex is dominant. Especially with some features like Dong Ap Bia. There are several places around the world that have been fought on that have the kind of terrain feature that it represents.

We know we can do nice smooth valley floors. What we need to work on is the extremes.

As we can see with points 1 through 3, there are 4 elevations in a single hex. With 4 there are 3 elevations in that hex but you are also at the crest of the formation.

The big challenge for map makers/scenario designers will be how to mark the elevations in situations like these.

Good Hunting.

MR

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 12/21/2013 8:31:14 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Enigma6584)

Post #: 14

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 1/7/2014 1:33:21 AM

Jamm

Posts: 408
Joined: 10/2/2009
Status: offline

I had some spare time today, so I put in a little work.
I dropped the no. of elevations to 10, since that is what the engine uses.
I was able to get at least 50% for the dominant levels on the steep inclines.
Here's a pic of the elevations.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Jamm -- 1/7/2014 2:38:42 AM >

_____________________________

When the going gets weird,... the weird turn pro
Hunter S Thompson

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Jamm-works/669418463128598?ref=bookmarks

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 15

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 1/7/2014 1:40:42 AM

Jamm

Posts: 408
Joined: 10/2/2009
Status: offline

And some early jungle work

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

When the going gets weird,... the weird turn pro
Hunter S Thompson

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Jamm-works/669418463128598?ref=bookmarks

(in reply to Jamm)

Post #: 16

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 1/7/2014 2:32:28 AM

CapnDarwin

Posts: 7904
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline

Steve will absolutely love the look of that map. Great job!!

_____________________________

The new year has started and we are hard at work on Southern Storm.

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

(in reply to Jamm)

Post #: 17

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 1/7/2014 4:49:34 AM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline

So the intent is to use fade through vision for elevations that are covered in vegetation?

The problem with Vietnam is not only the elevation differences but the terrain differences as well. There are multiple terrain features. For the mountains alone we could have:

Triple Canopy Jungle
Double Canopy Jungle
Jungle
Bamboo
Elephant Grass
Trails

That's the reason I chose Dong Ap Bia to try to model. If we can make this location we can do anywhere in the world.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 1/7/2014 5:53:52 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to CapnDarwin)

Post #: 18

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 1/7/2014 12:31:08 PM

tide1530

Posts: 103
Joined: 4/15/2011
Status: offline

It's an art....What else can you say

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 19

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 1/7/2014 1:52:16 PM

Jamm

Posts: 408
Joined: 10/2/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

So the intent is to use fade through vision for elevations that are covered in vegetation?

The problem with Vietnam is not only the elevation differences but the terrain differences as well. There are multiple terrain features. For the mountains alone we could have:

Triple Canopy Jungle
Double Canopy Jungle
Jungle
Bamboo
Elephant Grass
Trails

That's the reason I chose Dong Ap Bia to try to model. If we can make this location we can do anywhere in the world.

Good Hunting.

MR

Yes MR, I think opacity of the jungle allows the gamer some visual clues to the elevations,
and still maintains the natural.
A dark green blanket texture mapped over the terrain could be done to look more lifelike,
but as a gamer I would be lost. A bit of give and take.

The terrain types you mention like the canopies will certainly affect the ingame factors
such as mobility, air strikes, spotting etc. Jungle or terrain density could take these things
in to account. Although I am planning some elephant grass and paddies.

This map is a challenge so far.
But I think it'll be more difficult to design a scenario with units fighting with this terrain.

_____________________________

When the going gets weird,... the weird turn pro
Hunter S Thompson

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Jamm-works/669418463128598?ref=bookmarks

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 20

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 1/7/2014 4:25:50 PM

MikeGER

Posts: 379
Joined: 2/1/2011
Status: offline

...a few days not looking in the forum ... now that is a nice progress of the project!

How about noise traveling and size of the units (actual number of men) to 'spot' a unit in that environment?
I fear in that 250m-scale, the visibility in that dense environment still never leaves a single hex, but units might be heard,
depending on the number of men, their discipline/training, movement speed/stance.

A LARP may be able to sit in the same hex as a NVA battalion unnoticed, while a unaware US platoon may be heard some distance away on the march ...when a cherry f*%ks up on noise disziplin

How will ambushes be handled by the game engine?

< Message edited by MikeGER -- 1/7/2014 5:36:02 PM >

(in reply to Jamm)

Post #: 21

RE: Dong Ap Bia - Hamburger Hill - 1/7/2014 7:28:30 PM

Mad Russian

Posts: 13256
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline

When we get to Vietnam, there should be such things as trail watchers, LRRP, Montagnards, ARVN, airmobile, USMC, NVA/VC, sappers, napalm, heat exhaustion, command delays per number of command HQ's involved, booby traps, bunkers, helicopters, AAA, CAS, artillery reworked substantially, etc.

One thing about going to the 250 meter hexes is that is the WWII scale. Where ever we go next that should be implemented.

I chose Hamburger Hill because it's the most imposing terrain I've ever tried to make a map for in the multitude of wargames I've played/done scenarios for over the decades.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 1/7/2014 8:29:30 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to MikeGER)

Post #: 22