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Making a Smarter Convoy System - 12/16/2013 11:10:17 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 829
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline
The worst thing I hated about Marinacci's first computer version of World in Flames was the convoying of resources to production and saving oil, or trying to at least. It was so bad I basically gave up playing that game waiting for MWiF to finally get done. The main problem I identified with Marinacci's version was that the program did way too much thinking, and it was poorly programmed thinking that was the bane of that program.

Unfortunately that poor programming was never really fixed and now with the release of MWiF with the Oil Reorganization optional rule turned on it's become a real nightmare for those of us wanting to play with that awesome optional rule. Over the years I've hoped that this feature would be improved, even read years ago about how there were some improvements made in the convoying of resources although I really fail to see them.

When we set default or override settings the program can not override our settings, period. Even if we're wrong, then let us kick ourselves in the behind in the Final Production Planning Phase if we were wrong. I'm sick and tired of having the program give me a run around when I have an extra resource and I want to save an oil point in the home country, not have it sit idle because the Artificial Ignorance won't let me save it even though I have the proper number of unused convoy points to transport it properly.

So the best way to make this resource convoy function smarter is to give it a serious lobotomy. When I'm setting a path of sea areas I don't want the stupid program completely rethinking it back to the ignorant way it was, I only want it to do the port and rail portion of that connection since I can't set it manually. I especially don't want the program recalculating the same illegal convoy route it had prior where there are no convoy points in the sea area yet the program keeps going back to the last turn's settings that are now illegal. Even if the program is somehow allowing this illegal pathing to produce as if the resource did go to the factory.

The other big mistake is that the program forces oil into production before non-oil resources. I can't begin to complain about how many times I've had oil points wasted in production while the stupid program lets non-oil resources sit idle and I can't save any oil because it's being forced to factories by that overly lame over-thinking Artificial Ignorance.

As far as using oil for reorganization goes the biggest problem I see is that I don't see all of my available oil choices, especially those going into production. I know that people playing the board game never worried about whether an oil resource was being saved, only that it wasn't in production and it could be transported to the units needing oil for reorganization. I also want to be able to access foreign traded oil sent to my nation to be able to use that oil point for reorganization if I want to. This is the way the board game was played and this is how MWiF needs to work. No more nonsense about severely and artificially limiting our choice of oil points in the Oil Reorganization screen.

One trick WiF board game players would do is to calculate build points to check for rounding. Why send an oil point into production if that didn't result in another build point? If that oil point could be saved then better to save the oil point for future reference, or oil reorganization, than waste it in production. We should be able to limit how many resources go to factories for production if due to rounding we can let a factory go idle for a turn and not actually lose net real build points. A play gimmick but it also models production and resource usage efficiency.

We should also be able to change what foreign resources we get easier. While the manual says we can change default trade resources and countries I've yet to actually get those features to work for me so I could change what the program does stupidly. I don't want the program deciding that after a few turns of sending the CW's Burma oil point to China that when I add two non-oil resources to the agreement I don't want it then taking saved oil points from Britain to satisfy the new agreement screwing up my resource convoy from Australia to Britain for the Food in Flames extra BP. I should be able to easily change foreign trade resources, even switch them from production to saving for future reference or oil reorganization. Plus I want the program to stop forcing the oil point into production while one of the non-oil resource points goes idle.

When I'm changing some resource pathing or destination I don't want the stupid Artificial Ignorance rethinking other resource pathing, thus screwing up what I want done. When I set something to idle I don't want the program rethinking some other resource-factory connection. As a trade sending nation I want to be able to designate what resource goes in a trade, if the program picks one that's really stupid I want to be able to easily override or default reset that decision. Trade is a real nightmare right now, like the saying that no good deed goes unpunished!

Most of all I want to be able to save oil in the home country, or wherever for that matter, easily if I have the convoy points in the right sea areas. Regardless of how many factories sit idle if I want to save oil for reorganization or future reference then let the factories go idle.

So Shannon or Steve I hope you take this advice to heart, I've thought about it for many years and finally have a chance to share my thoughts on this subject with the programmer. I'm also willing to help beta test making this whole resource convoy - production - oil reorganization function work in a way that gives us players control without too much interference from the Artificial Ignorance. It most certainly has to be a great programming challenge to make this stuff work correctly. I think the biggest problem was to overthink the solution. Get with KISS Theory, Keep It Simple Stupid, and it will work. Trying to make the program calculate the most efficient path using the least number of convoy points should be attainable but not all the time is the shortest route the safest route. However when the program makes a really poor choice and gives us the least efficient convoy route usage then we have to be able to override that nonsense and manually set what we want as well as the path through sea areas.

Omnius
Post #: 1
RE: Making a Smarter Convoy System - 12/16/2013 11:25:38 PM   
dhucul2011

 

Posts: 551
Joined: 9/12/2007
Status: offline
Well said. This is my biggest concern with the game and is actually turning me off from continuing to play until something is done. A simple toggle to turn off the computer participation in this process is needed.

During setup I get a message that tells me that there are not enough convoy points in a particular area to satisfy the USA-Japanese trade agreement..."do you want to continue".

That needs to be in place for production planning and convoy routing as well.

Let ME set ALL of the routes as I want and then when I hit close tell me if there is a trade agreement not being honoured. I can then readjust as I want.

The production planning screen is also too busy with way too much info. Dumb it down. Let me click on a resource on a global map and click on each sea zone and then the final destination as save here, produce here, or trade to here.

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 2
RE: Making a Smarter Convoy System - 12/17/2013 2:15:47 AM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline
My complaint about the production system was/is that there is no way to see what rail lines are being used.

Since there is a limit to the amount of resources that can travel down a rail line.

I would have prefered to see the rail lines show up like the convoy lines do.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to dhucul2011)
Post #: 3
RE: Making a Smarter Convoy System - 12/17/2013 2:54:46 AM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4669
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline

I always had my reservations about the way production planning works.

but remember that there are still bug and it is a work in progress..

so maybe we should wait to judge it till it is working

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Extraneous)
Post #: 4
RE: Making a Smarter Convoy System - 12/17/2013 6:12:58 AM   
Courtenay


Posts: 3863
Joined: 11/12/2008
Status: offline
quote:

My complaint about the production system was/is that there is no way to see what rail lines are being used.

Since there is a limit to the amount of resources that can travel down a rail line.

I would have prefered to see the rail lines show up like the convoy lines do.

In real life there may be a limit to how much can travel down a rail line. In WiF, there isn't. The movement of resources by rail rule is lengthy, so I won't quote it here, but there is no limitation based on quantity. If one resource may take a route, an infinite number can.

_____________________________

I thought I knew how to play this game....

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 5
RE: Making a Smarter Convoy System - 12/17/2013 8:12:33 AM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4669
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

quote:

My complaint about the production system was/is that there is no way to see what rail lines are being used.

Since there is a limit to the amount of resources that can travel down a rail line.

I would have prefered to see the rail lines show up like the convoy lines do.

In real life there may be a limit to how much can travel down a rail line. In WiF, there isn't. The movement of resources by rail rule is lengthy, so I won't quote it here, but there is no limitation based on quantity. If one resource may take a route, an infinite number can.


it is the same with supply, scattered units, major ports and etc ..

it is made like that to make it simple



< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 12/17/2013 9:17:01 AM >


_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Courtenay)
Post #: 6
RE: Making a Smarter Convoy System - 12/17/2013 1:15:38 PM   
Extraneous

 

Posts: 1810
Joined: 6/14/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

Since there is a limit to the amount of resources that can travel down a rail line.

I would have prefered to see the rail lines show up like the convoy lines do.

In real life there may be a limit to how much can travel down a rail line. In WiF, there isn't. The movement of resources by rail rule is lengthy, so I won't quote it here, but there is no limitation based on quantity. If one resource may take a route, an infinite number can.


You are correct about rail lines but the issue remains...

quote:

A side can only ship 5 resources a turn into, and/or out of, each minor port.


The game doesn't show this in any way.



_____________________________

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)

(in reply to Courtenay)
Post #: 7
RE: Making a Smarter Convoy System - 12/17/2013 5:25:11 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 21954
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius

The worst thing I hated about Marinacci's first computer version of World in Flames was the convoying of resources to production and saving oil, or trying to at least. It was so bad I basically gave up playing that game waiting for MWiF to finally get done. The main problem I identified with Marinacci's version was that the program did way too much thinking, and it was poorly programmed thinking that was the bane of that program.

Unfortunately that poor programming was never really fixed and now with the release of MWiF with the Oil Reorganization optional rule turned on it's become a real nightmare for those of us wanting to play with that awesome optional rule. Over the years I've hoped that this feature would be improved, even read years ago about how there were some improvements made in the convoying of resources although I really fail to see them.

When we set default or override settings the program can not override our settings, period. Even if we're wrong, then let us kick ourselves in the behind in the Final Production Planning Phase if we were wrong. I'm sick and tired of having the program give me a run around when I have an extra resource and I want to save an oil point in the home country, not have it sit idle because the Artificial Ignorance won't let me save it even though I have the proper number of unused convoy points to transport it properly.

So the best way to make this resource convoy function smarter is to give it a serious lobotomy. When I'm setting a path of sea areas I don't want the stupid program completely rethinking it back to the ignorant way it was, I only want it to do the port and rail portion of that connection since I can't set it manually. I especially don't want the program recalculating the same illegal convoy route it had prior where there are no convoy points in the sea area yet the program keeps going back to the last turn's settings that are now illegal. Even if the program is somehow allowing this illegal pathing to produce as if the resource did go to the factory.

The other big mistake is that the program forces oil into production before non-oil resources. I can't begin to complain about how many times I've had oil points wasted in production while the stupid program lets non-oil resources sit idle and I can't save any oil because it's being forced to factories by that overly lame over-thinking Artificial Ignorance.

As far as using oil for reorganization goes the biggest problem I see is that I don't see all of my available oil choices, especially those going into production. I know that people playing the board game never worried about whether an oil resource was being saved, only that it wasn't in production and it could be transported to the units needing oil for reorganization. I also want to be able to access foreign traded oil sent to my nation to be able to use that oil point for reorganization if I want to. This is the way the board game was played and this is how MWiF needs to work. No more nonsense about severely and artificially limiting our choice of oil points in the Oil Reorganization screen.

One trick WiF board game players would do is to calculate build points to check for rounding. Why send an oil point into production if that didn't result in another build point? If that oil point could be saved then better to save the oil point for future reference, or oil reorganization, than waste it in production. We should be able to limit how many resources go to factories for production if due to rounding we can let a factory go idle for a turn and not actually lose net real build points. A play gimmick but it also models production and resource usage efficiency.

We should also be able to change what foreign resources we get easier. While the manual says we can change default trade resources and countries I've yet to actually get those features to work for me so I could change what the program does stupidly. I don't want the program deciding that after a few turns of sending the CW's Burma oil point to China that when I add two non-oil resources to the agreement I don't want it then taking saved oil points from Britain to satisfy the new agreement screwing up my resource convoy from Australia to Britain for the Food in Flames extra BP. I should be able to easily change foreign trade resources, even switch them from production to saving for future reference or oil reorganization. Plus I want the program to stop forcing the oil point into production while one of the non-oil resource points goes idle.

When I'm changing some resource pathing or destination I don't want the stupid Artificial Ignorance rethinking other resource pathing, thus screwing up what I want done. When I set something to idle I don't want the program rethinking some other resource-factory connection. As a trade sending nation I want to be able to designate what resource goes in a trade, if the program picks one that's really stupid I want to be able to easily override or default reset that decision. Trade is a real nightmare right now, like the saying that no good deed goes unpunished!

Most of all I want to be able to save oil in the home country, or wherever for that matter, easily if I have the convoy points in the right sea areas. Regardless of how many factories sit idle if I want to save oil for reorganization or future reference then let the factories go idle.

So Shannon or Steve I hope you take this advice to heart, I've thought about it for many years and finally have a chance to share my thoughts on this subject with the programmer. I'm also willing to help beta test making this whole resource convoy - production - oil reorganization function work in a way that gives us players control without too much interference from the Artificial Ignorance. It most certainly has to be a great programming challenge to make this stuff work correctly. I think the biggest problem was to overthink the solution. Get with KISS Theory, Keep It Simple Stupid, and it will work. Trying to make the program calculate the most efficient path using the least number of convoy points should be attainable but not all the time is the shortest route the safest route. However when the program makes a really poor choice and gives us the least efficient convoy route usage then we have to be able to override that nonsense and manually set what we want as well as the path through sea areas.

Omnius

I've made a set of changes and corrections for Production Planning that you will see in version 1.0.7.0 later this week. Those should solve most of the problems you encountered. In all, these mods required changing a dozen lines of code or so. That is out of ~10,000 lines of code used for production planning. Of course the right lines of code need to be identified and how to change them has to be done oh-so carefully.

===
December 15, 2013 - Added code to exempt Germany, the Commonwealth, and France from having to obey the rule restricting major powers to only 1 saved oil point per turn while neutral. This enables making production planning decisions during the Setup phase for those major powers in 1939 even though they are technically neutral. Since they will definitely be at war by the end of the first turn, no harm is done by this change. The important benefit is that the saving oil rule restriction for neutrals is not applied while a player is figuring out how to position his convoys during the Setup phase.

16. December 15, 2013 - Added code to enable computing production planning routes while still setting up units. Note that setting up routes is still not possible if the receiving major power has not set up its units.

17. December 15, 2013 - Fixed the problem in Production Planning where routes for resources received from minor countries as part of a trade agreement were not being implemented. For example, the Persian and Venezuelan resources were not being delivered to and saved in Egypt and Canada (respectively) although they had those destinations assigned as defaults.

18. December 16, 2013 - Fixed the problem with override and default routes that went overseas being given a lower priority than overland routes between non-oil resources and factories. Now Overrides and Defaults are all checked first. Only then are unassigned resources routed to factories: first overland and then overseas.



_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 8
RE: Making a Smarter Convoy System - 12/17/2013 5:41:48 PM   
Ncore

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 12/30/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I've made a set of changes and corrections for Production Planning that you will see in version 1.0.7.0 later this week. Those should solve most of the problems you encountered.


THANK YOU! Can't wait for the update

Seriously, I keep checking many times every day whether the update is live yet...

< Message edited by Ncore -- 12/17/2013 6:43:19 PM >


_____________________________

"Why does any advanced civilization seek to destroy a less advanced one? Because the land is strategically valuable, because there are resources that can be cultivated and exploited, but most of all, simply because they can."

G'Kar, Babylon 5

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 9
RE: Making a Smarter Convoy System - 12/17/2013 6:16:06 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8531
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius

I also want to be able to access foreign traded oil sent to my nation to be able to use that oil point for reorganization if I want to.



Sorry, but that isn't allowed by the rules... You can only use oil resources you control for reorganisation. Since you don't control foreign traded oil, you have first to save the oil resource and can than use it for reorganisation, next turn...
And you weren't the only one who played this one the way you did. I did to, for a long time...



_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 10
RE: Making a Smarter Convoy System - 12/17/2013 6:20:09 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8531
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius

The worst thing I hated about Marinacci's first computer version of World in Flames was the convoying of resources to production and saving oil, or trying to at least. It was so bad I basically gave up playing that game waiting for MWiF to finally get done. The main problem I identified with Marinacci's version was that the program did way too much thinking, and it was poorly programmed thinking that was the bane of that program.

Unfortunately that poor programming was never really fixed and now with the release of MWiF with the Oil Reorganization optional rule turned on it's become a real nightmare for those of us wanting to play with that awesome optional rule. Over the years I've hoped that this feature would be improved, even read years ago about how there were some improvements made in the convoying of resources although I really fail to see them.

When we set default or override settings the program can not override our settings, period. Even if we're wrong, then let us kick ourselves in the behind in the Final Production Planning Phase if we were wrong. I'm sick and tired of having the program give me a run around when I have an extra resource and I want to save an oil point in the home country, not have it sit idle because the Artificial Ignorance won't let me save it even though I have the proper number of unused convoy points to transport it properly.

So the best way to make this resource convoy function smarter is to give it a serious lobotomy. When I'm setting a path of sea areas I don't want the stupid program completely rethinking it back to the ignorant way it was, I only want it to do the port and rail portion of that connection since I can't set it manually. I especially don't want the program recalculating the same illegal convoy route it had prior where there are no convoy points in the sea area yet the program keeps going back to the last turn's settings that are now illegal. Even if the program is somehow allowing this illegal pathing to produce as if the resource did go to the factory.

The other big mistake is that the program forces oil into production before non-oil resources. I can't begin to complain about how many times I've had oil points wasted in production while the stupid program lets non-oil resources sit idle and I can't save any oil because it's being forced to factories by that overly lame over-thinking Artificial Ignorance.

As far as using oil for reorganization goes the biggest problem I see is that I don't see all of my available oil choices, especially those going into production. I know that people playing the board game never worried about whether an oil resource was being saved, only that it wasn't in production and it could be transported to the units needing oil for reorganization. I also want to be able to access foreign traded oil sent to my nation to be able to use that oil point for reorganization if I want to. This is the way the board game was played and this is how MWiF needs to work. No more nonsense about severely and artificially limiting our choice of oil points in the Oil Reorganization screen.

One trick WiF board game players would do is to calculate build points to check for rounding. Why send an oil point into production if that didn't result in another build point? If that oil point could be saved then better to save the oil point for future reference, or oil reorganization, than waste it in production. We should be able to limit how many resources go to factories for production if due to rounding we can let a factory go idle for a turn and not actually lose net real build points. A play gimmick but it also models production and resource usage efficiency.

We should also be able to change what foreign resources we get easier. While the manual says we can change default trade resources and countries I've yet to actually get those features to work for me so I could change what the program does stupidly. I don't want the program deciding that after a few turns of sending the CW's Burma oil point to China that when I add two non-oil resources to the agreement I don't want it then taking saved oil points from Britain to satisfy the new agreement screwing up my resource convoy from Australia to Britain for the Food in Flames extra BP. I should be able to easily change foreign trade resources, even switch them from production to saving for future reference or oil reorganization. Plus I want the program to stop forcing the oil point into production while one of the non-oil resource points goes idle.

When I'm changing some resource pathing or destination I don't want the stupid Artificial Ignorance rethinking other resource pathing, thus screwing up what I want done. When I set something to idle I don't want the program rethinking some other resource-factory connection. As a trade sending nation I want to be able to designate what resource goes in a trade, if the program picks one that's really stupid I want to be able to easily override or default reset that decision. Trade is a real nightmare right now, like the saying that no good deed goes unpunished!

Most of all I want to be able to save oil in the home country, or wherever for that matter, easily if I have the convoy points in the right sea areas. Regardless of how many factories sit idle if I want to save oil for reorganization or future reference then let the factories go idle.

So Shannon or Steve I hope you take this advice to heart, I've thought about it for many years and finally have a chance to share my thoughts on this subject with the programmer. I'm also willing to help beta test making this whole resource convoy - production - oil reorganization function work in a way that gives us players control without too much interference from the Artificial Ignorance. It most certainly has to be a great programming challenge to make this stuff work correctly. I think the biggest problem was to overthink the solution. Get with KISS Theory, Keep It Simple Stupid, and it will work. Trying to make the program calculate the most efficient path using the least number of convoy points should be attainable but not all the time is the shortest route the safest route. However when the program makes a really poor choice and gives us the least efficient convoy route usage then we have to be able to override that nonsense and manually set what we want as well as the path through sea areas.

Omnius


In general, I agree. But that isn't getting us anywhere, at this time. Steve insists he will get all of this right. If he does, I'm going to have to do some apologies in the forums here...
And by the way: do you hate the "recompute" button also?

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 11
RE: Making a Smarter Convoy System - 12/18/2013 7:12:31 AM   
Louis_Davout

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 11/20/2013
Status: offline


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I've made a set of changes and corrections for Production Planning that you will see in version 1.0.7.0 later this week. Those should solve most of the problems you encountered.


Fantastic news. Shannon, you've just become my deity-of-the-week. Please allow me to present my firstborn son's pet goldfish as a sacrifice to your awsomeness.

(in reply to Ncore)
Post #: 12
RE: Making a Smarter Convoy System - 12/18/2013 7:57:18 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8040
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
Please see this thread in WiF School for an update on production planning.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3486698


_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Louis_Davout)
Post #: 13
RE: Making a Smarter Convoy System - 12/19/2013 10:55:21 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 829
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Sorry, but that isn't allowed by the rules... You can only use oil resources you control for reorganisation. Since you don't control foreign traded oil, you have first to save the oil resource and can than use it for reorganisation, next turn...
And you weren't the only one who played this one the way you did. I did to, for a long time...



Centaur,
Slowly but surely I'm learning the rules for oil reorganization, through a lot of trial and error. Just trying to figure out the rules for when we get traded oil is tough, but after playing a few turns doing trades and saving oil I'm starting to see how the whole oil business works.

I did download and try 1.07 and did see an improvement in my Preliminary Production Phase as to being able to save oil points, and see more than 1 oil point accumulate in a city. I was actually able to save a foreign traded oil point, much better than before. I even was able to switch which resource point was traded to China from the CW, program picked one from Coventry, Britain and I switched it to one from Malaya.

Omnius

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 14
Testing Report of Improvement - 12/19/2013 11:13:06 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 829
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


I've made a set of changes and corrections for Production Planning that you will see in version 1.0.7.0 later this week. Those should solve most of the problems you encountered. In all, these mods required changing a dozen lines of code or so. That is out of ~10,000 lines of code used for production planning. Of course the right lines of code need to be identified and how to change them has to be done oh-so carefully.

===
December 15, 2013 - Added code to exempt Germany, the Commonwealth, and France from having to obey the rule restricting major powers to only 1 saved oil point per turn while neutral. This enables making production planning decisions during the Setup phase for those major powers in 1939 even though they are technically neutral. Since they will definitely be at war by the end of the first turn, no harm is done by this change. The important benefit is that the saving oil rule restriction for neutrals is not applied while a player is figuring out how to position his convoys during the Setup phase.

16. December 15, 2013 - Added code to enable computing production planning routes while still setting up units. Note that setting up routes is still not possible if the receiving major power has not set up its units.

17. December 15, 2013 - Fixed the problem in Production Planning where routes for resources received from minor countries as part of a trade agreement were not being implemented. For example, the Persian and Venezuelan resources were not being delivered to and saved in Egypt and Canada (respectively) although they had those destinations assigned as defaults.

18. December 16, 2013 - Fixed the problem with override and default routes that went overseas being given a lower priority than overland routes between non-oil resources and factories. Now Overrides and Defaults are all checked first. Only then are unassigned resources routed to factories: first overland and then overseas.





Shannon,
Thanks for the heads up about 1.07 coming out later this week. I was busy with work and cooking and cleaning my new kitchen toy, a deep fat fryer. I'm glad I waited so that the next turn I played, Nov/Dec 1940, turned out much better than had I played with 1.06. Here's my findings:

I was able to save a Japanese extra oil point in Kobe, the one that in version 1.06 was constantly being shuffled into and out of production with a non-oil resource from China. In 1.07 I couldn't use the default tab to set my saved oil city but I could in the Override tab. I think I hedged my bets by placing the order in both areas, but had to use the recompute button for the Override tab. A definite improvement over 1.06 in this respect. I also was able to save a German oil point sent to Italy from version 1.06 instead of it getting hijacked into production.

I was able to switch a CW non-oil resource point coming from Coventry, Britain, to China to one from Malaya, not something I was able to do before. I also discovered that when I right-click on the route box that I can set the default trade country, so some improvement on operator skill using the system. I was also able to save a CW oil point traded to China in Kunming instead of it being forced into production.

Funny but I didn't have too much trouble saving CW oil traded from Persia to Kuwait, though it was problematic saving the Indonesian ones to India.

I also discovered that I need to click a second time on the last sea area to get the program to recompute a sea path, when I clicked on the recompute box it would go all crazy, usually just revert back to the original route. I finally noticed the tip at the bottom of the map screen that said to click again on the last sea area, didn't see that before. Is it new?

I like that you cut some slack on the CW, Germany and France for set up, I like to figure out stuff like that during set up so I know how many convoy points to place in each sea area. I really would like to feel safe setting convoy routing during say a naval movement phase so I can figure out how many unused convoy points I have where and to calculate how to set up new convoy chains before pulling some convoy points out of sea areas that can be dangerous, and to do so in a way that doesn't totally screw up my convoy routing for a turn.

In between your fixes and me figuring out a few operator error problems I definitely enjoyed my last turn with 1.07 much better than previous versions.

However one major problem remains, the phantom convoy problem where resources are being shipped through sea areas with no convoy points.

Omnius

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 15
RE: Testing Report of Improvement - 12/20/2013 3:12:09 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8040
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius
I also discovered that I need to click a second time on the last sea area to get the program to recompute a sea path, when I clicked on the recompute box it would go all crazy, usually just revert back to the original route. I finally noticed the tip at the bottom of the map screen that said to click again on the last sea area, didn't see that before. Is it new?

That was always there near the end of the Form Help text.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 16
New Weird Convoy Stuff - 1/4/2014 8:55:20 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 829
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline
I just had another major malfunction with CW convoying resources in version 1.07 to Great Britain through a sea area with no Allied convoy points whatsoever. This time it was in a turn where I sent my German subs out, a whole bunch, and sank or aborted all Allied convoy points.

One of the most amazing things I saw was how the resource at British Guyana was convoyed to the factory in Australia. The program made it go up the North American coast then down through the North Atlantic to proceed down the coasts of Spain and Africa. Then it straightened out to take the short route to western Australia. I was surprised it didn't go up and down the coasts of Africa, India and Netherlands East Indies to waste a few more CP's. Of course the three Aussie resources were idle.

I'm bummed that no one has written a more efficient convoy routing routine, I mean computer programs should be awesome at optimizing. We really need to have a better convoying of resources routine that does optimize convoying of resources to factories.

1) Route resources to factories first that do not need convoys. I can't tell you how many times I see this violated, even though the turn before it was running this way.

2) Route non-oil resources to factories before oil. Once again I'm amazed at how often oil is sent to production while non-oil resources sit idle even though they could have been sent instead or had been.

3) When convoying resources make the program use the least number of convoy points. I see the program try to use the maximum number way too many times, just wastes them if they are unused.

4) Make certain that resources are not convoyed through sea areas that don't have convoy points or not the correct number of them. This is a major problem. Some CW players could unknowingly be cheating even when they intend to.

5) Make the program stop recalculating so often and make sure that when we set defaults that the program can only change them if they are illegal.

6) Lock oil resource routing in the Final Production Phase so even the program can't change anything unless it finds an illegal routing. I tried to change one as Italy and I'm glad I didn't save before moving on to Japan. After looking back at Italy I saw that the oil resource that was being saved that I had tried to change in that final phase just dropped it's routing and would have been wasted had I not quit and restored my last save.

I would have made more progress with my first test game but I cringe whenever I have to mess with production convoy nonsense. It's the one feature that stopped me from playing Marinacci's computer version of WiF and it's definitely slowing me down from making further progress in MWiF.

Omnius

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 17
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