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RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged

 
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RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/17/2013 2:53:21 PM   
koniu


Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.


Steel produced prior WW2 is important for science.
It is called Low-background steel and is is very important to build devices that requiring
low radiation background.

_____________________________

"Only the Dead Have Seen the End of War"

(in reply to tk208)
Post #: 31
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/17/2013 6:49:38 PM   
sprior


Posts: 8598
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.


Steel produced prior WW2 is important for science.
It is called Low-background steel and is is very important to build devices that requiring
low radiation background.


They can get tons of the stuff from Scapa Flow without robbing graves.

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.



(in reply to koniu)
Post #: 32
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/17/2013 6:54:30 PM   
sprior


Posts: 8598
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Without a doubt there are farmers in France and Flanders growing crops over the bodies of dead soldiers from the First World War, yet there's no great cry about their bodies not being respected. Granted, there may be a sentimental difference, but I think it remains a fair pratical comparison.



Comparing Flander's fields to a sunken warship is not the same. For those sailors who went down with her the wreck IS their grave. Your comparison would be more apt if you compared salvaging a sunken warship to ploughing a graveyard or digging up the soldiers graves to look for medals, badges or buttons.

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.



(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 33
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/17/2013 7:40:09 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2908
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Without a doubt there are farmers in France and Flanders growing crops over the bodies of dead soldiers from the First World War, yet there's no great cry about their bodies not being respected. Granted, there may be a sentimental difference, but I think it remains a fair pratical comparison.



Comparing Flander's fields to a sunken warship is not the same. For those sailors who went down with her the wreck IS their grave. Your comparison would be more apt if you compared salvaging a sunken warship to ploughing a graveyard or digging up the soldiers graves to look for medals, badges or buttons.


No, I think my original comparison was fine as it was. There are plenty of dead not buried in war cemeteries, and if you think there's never any souvenir hunting in France, you'd be wrong. I'd imagine a fair few would come from battlefield graves.

(in reply to sprior)
Post #: 34
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/17/2013 7:42:02 PM   
rsallen64


Posts: 160
Joined: 6/15/2009
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
One big difference I see is the fields fought over in Europe were worked and lived on long before the campaigns of WWI and WWII, and the people still live there today. They can't help but come across remains. Nobody lived or worked in the region where the salvage is taking place, and nobody ever made any attempt to respectfully remove the remains from the wrecks before (or had the means to do so). The salvage companies are doing this for money, pure and simple, and there are tons of other wrecks in the ocean that are "low radiation" metal that do not contain the sentimental and historical significance. Leave the dead where they lie, in respectful peace, and honor the sacrifice they made.

(in reply to sprior)
Post #: 35
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/17/2013 7:47:57 PM   
sprior


Posts: 8598
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'd imagine a fair few would come from battlefield graves.


Your source(s) for this or just your imagination?


_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.



(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 36
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/17/2013 8:49:20 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2908
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

One big difference I see is the fields fought over in Europe were worked and lived on long before the campaigns of WWI and WWII, and the people still live there today. They can't help but come across remains. Nobody lived or worked in the region where the salvage is taking place, and nobody ever made any attempt to respectfully remove the remains from the wrecks before (or had the means to do so). The salvage companies are doing this for money, pure and simple, and there are tons of other wrecks in the ocean that are "low radiation" metal that do not contain the sentimental and historical significance. Leave the dead where they lie, in respectful peace, and honor the sacrifice they made.


Is a rusty collection of formless metal sitting at the seabed never to be seen a fitting tribute to their sacrifice?


quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'd imagine a fair few would come from battlefield graves.


Your source(s) for this or just your imagination?



http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/willardfoxton2/100011410/first-world-war-grave-robbers-this-nasty-trade-is-growing-as-the-1914-anniversary-approaches/

http://www.express.co.uk/expressyourself/344760/Grave-robbing-ghouls-who-trade-in-Nazi-relics

grave-robbers-targetting-fallen-of-second-world-war-for-memorabilia-1-832527

(in reply to rsallen64)
Post #: 37
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/17/2013 8:59:34 PM   
sprior


Posts: 8598
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
Status: offline
Thanks for the links. I note that that's illegal too as is robbing from wrecks designated as wargraves.

_____________________________

"Grown ups are what's left when skool is finished."
"History started badly and hav been geting steadily worse."
- Nigel Molesworth.



(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 38
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/17/2013 11:41:46 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 6454
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
[quote
On a wider note, it's the usual double standards from a moral standpoint. Nobody blinks an eye when the Americans salvage the K-129, yet would explode in anger should someone dare do that to the Americans.][/quote]

FYI, the Soviet sailors brought up with the K-129 were given a full military honors burial. This was filmed and subsequently shown/given to Russian authorities. As for Mr. Snowden history will tell whether he was right/wrong. As far as spying goes (not saying right/wrong) get over it all governments do it. I myself, was at one time (briefly) part of that community (got out because I did't like the work). I could tell you what I did, but yes I'd still have to kill you.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 39
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/17/2013 11:52:22 PM   
tk208

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAK63

I don't have a problem fundamentally if they were just trying to get a ships bell, or wheel, to bring up and display at some memorial. But to dredge up a whole sub, like the Dutch O-16, so they could scrap it completely for metal, I have a little problem with that. I'm sure relatives of the Dutch sailors wouldn't be very happy either if they find out. I wonder what reaction we would have in this country if some country hauled up a complete US sub sunk in the war, just for its metal. I know it probably can't be stopped, its just kind of sickening.


So you feel the same way about the WW1 battlefields that were cleared of dead bodies and ordinance just so that some Belgian or French farmers could plant crops again to make a living?


There's a sentimental difference, I think. Probably in that the remains of the folks who died actually got "cleared away" and sent home for burial. Those battlefields aren't war graves.

The sunken ships are. Even if no actual remains are still there. Admittedly, from my perspective, that makes things a little hazy, but I can still sympathize with the point. Just as I can sympathize with the idea that there are no bodies left... I think I lean a bit farther towards Still A War Grave, though.


Without a doubt there are farmers in France and Flanders growing crops over the bodies of dead soldiers from the First World War, yet there's no great cry about their bodies not being respected. Granted, there may be a sentimental difference, but I think it remains a fair pratical comparison.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My point is that the USN is more possessive/protective over wrecks. You need to look no further than the a/c being recovered in areas like Lake Michigan where there's not a body involved at all yet they still retain/guard ownership of it. Yes they give permission to recover a/c wrecks if no known casualties are involved. In the case of Houston, I'd bet they would come down very hard on someone trying to salvage anything from it w/o expressed permission


Were I an American taxpayer, I'd object to my tax dollars being spent chasing down South-East Asian salvage operations.

Even if the USN wants to take a stance, they could complain to whatever government is responsible, and have them do nothing.

Or they could board and stop the salvage on some pretext, kicking off a diplomatic crisis, and at which point the Chinese swing in to play the good guy.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.


Yes, let's go and bomb some South-East Asians, to punish them for stealing the metal from our ships!!!

Good to see you approve of the American government illegal international spying operation. It frames your previous views rather nicely.


Umm I don't really know what post you were reading mate but it sure as hell wasn't mine. "Showing a bit of spine" does not mean bomb some South East Asian country and I'm pretty sure I never said I approved of how the yanks get their Intel just that it was their leak that caused problems for our Govt. hence the lack of response to the "salvage" operation.

Also refresh my memory as to what my previous views were? Fairly sure this is the only comment I've made on the subject.

Maybe your user name gives a hint or two





Your previous views were how you wished America would send a carrier battle group to go rattle the sabre in the face of some South-East Asians for having the nerve to try to make a living off sunken American ships.

Combined with your disaproval of Snowden, it gives me a pretty good idea as to how you view the world.


On a wider note, it's the usual double standards from a moral standpoint. Nobody blinks an eye when the Americans salvage the K-129, yet would explode in anger should someone dare do that to the Americans.


That wasn't me who said that mate try reading the posts a bit more carefully before you get your knickers in a twist.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 40
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/17/2013 11:52:26 PM   
rsallen64


Posts: 160
Joined: 6/15/2009
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

One big difference I see is the fields fought over in Europe were worked and lived on long before the campaigns of WWI and WWII, and the people still live there today. They can't help but come across remains. Nobody lived or worked in the region where the salvage is taking place, and nobody ever made any attempt to respectfully remove the remains from the wrecks before (or had the means to do so). The salvage companies are doing this for money, pure and simple, and there are tons of other wrecks in the ocean that are "low radiation" metal that do not contain the sentimental and historical significance. Leave the dead where they lie, in respectful peace, and honor the sacrifice they made.


Is a rusty collection of formless metal sitting at the seabed never to be seen a fitting tribute to their sacrifice?




Actually, what I meant to say to mind-messing is, I cannot say for certain whether "a rusty collection of formless metal sitting at the seabed never to be seen [is]a fitting tribute to their sacrifice" but I certainly do not believe that hauling it up and selling it for profit is a "fitting tribute."

< Message edited by rsallen64 -- 12/18/2013 12:58:09 AM >

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 41
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/17/2013 11:54:47 PM   
tk208

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

Doing things that are both wrong and stupid are not the fault of the one who raises the alarm.




Not at all but how can we tell the difference between wrong and stupid and a legitimate security threat?

None of us here can make that call because none of us know what really goes on behind closed doors and what motivates Intelligence Agencies worldwide to collect different types of Intel.

Better not (for the forum's sake) to go too far down that path of discussion. It is a call that we must make, regardless of the inherent lack of perfection.


Good idea, that can of worms can stay closed lol


< Message edited by tk208 -- 12/18/2013 12:56:48 AM >

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 42
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/18/2013 1:30:48 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2908
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

One big difference I see is the fields fought over in Europe were worked and lived on long before the campaigns of WWI and WWII, and the people still live there today. They can't help but come across remains. Nobody lived or worked in the region where the salvage is taking place, and nobody ever made any attempt to respectfully remove the remains from the wrecks before (or had the means to do so). The salvage companies are doing this for money, pure and simple, and there are tons of other wrecks in the ocean that are "low radiation" metal that do not contain the sentimental and historical significance. Leave the dead where they lie, in respectful peace, and honor the sacrifice they made.


Is a rusty collection of formless metal sitting at the seabed never to be seen a fitting tribute to their sacrifice?




Actually, what I meant to say to mind-messing is, I cannot say for certain whether "a rusty collection of formless metal sitting at the seabed never to be seen [is]a fitting tribute to their sacrifice" but I certainly do not believe that hauling it up and selling it for profit is a "fitting tribute."


I, for one, would rather that somebody benefitted from it, rather than the wrecks to lie neglected and forgotton on the seabed.

Do you feel the same way about the war memorabilia market, with the knowledge that some (and perhaps even a majority) of it may come from a looted war grave?


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

[quote
On a wider note, it's the usual double standards from a moral standpoint. Nobody blinks an eye when the Americans salvage the K-129, yet would explode in anger should someone dare do that to the Americans.]


FYI, the Soviet sailors brought up with the K-129 were given a full military honors burial. This was filmed and subsequently shown/given to Russian authorities. As for Mr. Snowden history will tell whether he was right/wrong. As far as spying goes (not saying right/wrong) get over it all governments do it. I myself, was at one time (briefly) part of that community (got out because I did't like the work). I could tell you what I did, but yes I'd still have to kill you.


Buried with honours or not, the US still wrecked the gravesite without asking the Kremlin nicely.

I suppose you'll be telling me next how you're a highly train SEAL sniper SpecOps with over three hundred confirmed kills.



quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAK63

I don't have a problem fundamentally if they were just trying to get a ships bell, or wheel, to bring up and display at some memorial. But to dredge up a whole sub, like the Dutch O-16, so they could scrap it completely for metal, I have a little problem with that. I'm sure relatives of the Dutch sailors wouldn't be very happy either if they find out. I wonder what reaction we would have in this country if some country hauled up a complete US sub sunk in the war, just for its metal. I know it probably can't be stopped, its just kind of sickening.


So you feel the same way about the WW1 battlefields that were cleared of dead bodies and ordinance just so that some Belgian or French farmers could plant crops again to make a living?


There's a sentimental difference, I think. Probably in that the remains of the folks who died actually got "cleared away" and sent home for burial. Those battlefields aren't war graves.

The sunken ships are. Even if no actual remains are still there. Admittedly, from my perspective, that makes things a little hazy, but I can still sympathize with the point. Just as I can sympathize with the idea that there are no bodies left... I think I lean a bit farther towards Still A War Grave, though.


Without a doubt there are farmers in France and Flanders growing crops over the bodies of dead soldiers from the First World War, yet there's no great cry about their bodies not being respected. Granted, there may be a sentimental difference, but I think it remains a fair pratical comparison.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My point is that the USN is more possessive/protective over wrecks. You need to look no further than the a/c being recovered in areas like Lake Michigan where there's not a body involved at all yet they still retain/guard ownership of it. Yes they give permission to recover a/c wrecks if no known casualties are involved. In the case of Houston, I'd bet they would come down very hard on someone trying to salvage anything from it w/o expressed permission


Were I an American taxpayer, I'd object to my tax dollars being spent chasing down South-East Asian salvage operations.

Even if the USN wants to take a stance, they could complain to whatever government is responsible, and have them do nothing.

Or they could board and stop the salvage on some pretext, kicking off a diplomatic crisis, and at which point the Chinese swing in to play the good guy.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.


Yes, let's go and bomb some South-East Asians, to punish them for stealing the metal from our ships!!!

Good to see you approve of the American government illegal international spying operation. It frames your previous views rather nicely.


Umm I don't really know what post you were reading mate but it sure as hell wasn't mine. "Showing a bit of spine" does not mean bomb some South East Asian country and I'm pretty sure I never said I approved of how the yanks get their Intel just that it was their leak that caused problems for our Govt. hence the lack of response to the "salvage" operation.

Also refresh my memory as to what my previous views were? Fairly sure this is the only comment I've made on the subject.

Maybe your user name gives a hint or two





Your previous views were how you wished America would send a carrier battle group to go rattle the sabre in the face of some South-East Asians for having the nerve to try to make a living off sunken American ships.

Combined with your disaproval of Snowden, it gives me a pretty good idea as to how you view the world.


On a wider note, it's the usual double standards from a moral standpoint. Nobody blinks an eye when the Americans salvage the K-129, yet would explode in anger should someone dare do that to the Americans.


That wasn't me who said that mate try reading the posts a bit more carefully before you get your knickers in a twist.



Evidently my reading is fine, but you've got a memory problem. Let me quote it for you.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland
.


< Message edited by mind_messing -- 12/18/2013 2:31:35 AM >

(in reply to tk208)
Post #: 43
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/18/2013 2:05:22 AM   
tk208

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

One big difference I see is the fields fought over in Europe were worked and lived on long before the campaigns of WWI and WWII, and the people still live there today. They can't help but come across remains. Nobody lived or worked in the region where the salvage is taking place, and nobody ever made any attempt to respectfully remove the remains from the wrecks before (or had the means to do so). The salvage companies are doing this for money, pure and simple, and there are tons of other wrecks in the ocean that are "low radiation" metal that do not contain the sentimental and historical significance. Leave the dead where they lie, in respectful peace, and honor the sacrifice they made.


Is a rusty collection of formless metal sitting at the seabed never to be seen a fitting tribute to their sacrifice?




Actually, what I meant to say to mind-messing is, I cannot say for certain whether "a rusty collection of formless metal sitting at the seabed never to be seen [is]a fitting tribute to their sacrifice" but I certainly do not believe that hauling it up and selling it for profit is a "fitting tribute."


I, for one, would rather that somebody benefitted from it, rather than the wrecks to lie neglected and forgotton on the seabed.

Do you feel the same way about the war memorabilia market, with the knowledge that some (and perhaps even a majority) of it may come from a looted war grave?


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

[quote
On a wider note, it's the usual double standards from a moral standpoint. Nobody blinks an eye when the Americans salvage the K-129, yet would explode in anger should someone dare do that to the Americans.]


FYI, the Soviet sailors brought up with the K-129 were given a full military honors burial. This was filmed and subsequently shown/given to Russian authorities. As for Mr. Snowden history will tell whether he was right/wrong. As far as spying goes (not saying right/wrong) get over it all governments do it. I myself, was at one time (briefly) part of that community (got out because I did't like the work). I could tell you what I did, but yes I'd still have to kill you.


Buried with honours or not, the US still wrecked the gravesite without asking the Kremlin nicely.

I suppose you'll be telling me next how you're a highly train SEAL sniper SpecOps with over three hundred confirmed kills.



quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAK63

I don't have a problem fundamentally if they were just trying to get a ships bell, or wheel, to bring up and display at some memorial. But to dredge up a whole sub, like the Dutch O-16, so they could scrap it completely for metal, I have a little problem with that. I'm sure relatives of the Dutch sailors wouldn't be very happy either if they find out. I wonder what reaction we would have in this country if some country hauled up a complete US sub sunk in the war, just for its metal. I know it probably can't be stopped, its just kind of sickening.


So you feel the same way about the WW1 battlefields that were cleared of dead bodies and ordinance just so that some Belgian or French farmers could plant crops again to make a living?


There's a sentimental difference, I think. Probably in that the remains of the folks who died actually got "cleared away" and sent home for burial. Those battlefields aren't war graves.

The sunken ships are. Even if no actual remains are still there. Admittedly, from my perspective, that makes things a little hazy, but I can still sympathize with the point. Just as I can sympathize with the idea that there are no bodies left... I think I lean a bit farther towards Still A War Grave, though.


Without a doubt there are farmers in France and Flanders growing crops over the bodies of dead soldiers from the First World War, yet there's no great cry about their bodies not being respected. Granted, there may be a sentimental difference, but I think it remains a fair pratical comparison.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My point is that the USN is more possessive/protective over wrecks. You need to look no further than the a/c being recovered in areas like Lake Michigan where there's not a body involved at all yet they still retain/guard ownership of it. Yes they give permission to recover a/c wrecks if no known casualties are involved. In the case of Houston, I'd bet they would come down very hard on someone trying to salvage anything from it w/o expressed permission


Were I an American taxpayer, I'd object to my tax dollars being spent chasing down South-East Asian salvage operations.

Even if the USN wants to take a stance, they could complain to whatever government is responsible, and have them do nothing.

Or they could board and stop the salvage on some pretext, kicking off a diplomatic crisis, and at which point the Chinese swing in to play the good guy.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.


Yes, let's go and bomb some South-East Asians, to punish them for stealing the metal from our ships!!!

Good to see you approve of the American government illegal international spying operation. It frames your previous views rather nicely.


Umm I don't really know what post you were reading mate but it sure as hell wasn't mine. "Showing a bit of spine" does not mean bomb some South East Asian country and I'm pretty sure I never said I approved of how the yanks get their Intel just that it was their leak that caused problems for our Govt. hence the lack of response to the "salvage" operation.

Also refresh my memory as to what my previous views were? Fairly sure this is the only comment I've made on the subject.

Maybe your user name gives a hint or two





Your previous views were how you wished America would send a carrier battle group to go rattle the sabre in the face of some South-East Asians for having the nerve to try to make a living off sunken American ships.

Combined with your disaproval of Snowden, it gives me a pretty good idea as to how you view the world.


On a wider note, it's the usual double standards from a moral standpoint. Nobody blinks an eye when the Americans salvage the K-129, yet would explode in anger should someone dare do that to the Americans.


That wasn't me who said that mate try reading the posts a bit more carefully before you get your knickers in a twist.



Evidently my reading is fine, but you've got a memory problem. Let me quote it for you.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland
.



Ok lol where in that post do I say I wish the Americans would send in a CVBG?


< Message edited by tk208 -- 12/18/2013 3:06:33 AM >

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 44
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/18/2013 2:56:57 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 6454
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Buried with honours or not, the US still wrecked the gravesite without asking the Kremlin nicely.

I suppose you'll be telling me next how you're a highly train SEAL sniper SpecOps with over three hundred confirmed kills.

OK, excuse me comrade do you mind if we dig up your dead sailors so we can have a look at your nuc sub. Look, I'm not saying it was right but at least we showed some respect to those who gave thier lives in the service of their country. No I was in the ASA (Army Security Agency) when I was in the military. If you don't know what that is it was the military branch of the NSA (no such ageny) and I was an electronics technician. It was disbanded back in the day ostensibly to consolidate the intelligence community. But I think in reality it was because we were caught with our hand in the cookie jar... we were spying on Americans. And no I'm only jerking your chian, I won't have to shoot you. All I'm trying to say here is that a little respect should be paid to those who gave their lives in the service of their country. No matter who, no matter where. Those men and wemen who get caught up in all this cr*p usually have nothing to do with it and have little or no choice in the matter.

(in reply to tk208)
Post #: 45
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/18/2013 4:16:57 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 24994
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

Buried with honours or not, the US still wrecked the gravesite without asking the Kremlin nicely.


Just a note that the Soviets themselves set a precedent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_L55

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Post #: 46
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/18/2013 5:51:20 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.


Steel produced prior WW2 is important for science.
It is called Low-background steel and is is very important to build devices that requiring
low radiation background.


Thanks, very interesting koniu! Was news to me.

Low-background steel

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Post #: 47
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/18/2013 7:49:50 AM   
tk208

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.


Steel produced prior WW2 is important for science.
It is called Low-background steel and is is very important to build devices that requiring
low radiation background.


Well there you go, didn't know that

(in reply to koniu)
Post #: 48
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/18/2013 12:28:17 PM   
f4migcap

 

Posts: 59
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From: Baltimore MD, USA
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I think if people are really looking for pre-WWII low radiation metal to use, there's thousands of ton's of WWI metal in Scapa Flow from all of the German warships scuttled by their own sailors. Also England scuttled alot of U-Boats after the WWII in Operation Deadlight. So there's plenty of that low rad metal around that are not war graves.

(in reply to koniu)
Post #: 49
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/18/2013 1:21:52 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4114
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
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Of the 52 German ships scuttled at Scapa Flow, most have already been raised and scrapped in the 1920s / 1930s. Only seven ships remain there - 3 battleships, 4 cruisers. That still amounts to thousands of tons of steel, but the ships lie in deeper waters and it is considered uneconomical to raise them in their entirety. However, small scraps of low-background steel from the remaining ships are being recovered for devices like Geiger counters.

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Post #: 50
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/18/2013 1:24:45 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1730
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From: Finland
Status: offline
Yeah, there's plenty of scrap steel in Scotland. Not going to help much when you're in Asia...

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Post #: 51
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/18/2013 6:07:20 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu
Steel produced prior WW2 is important for science.
It is called Low-background steel and is is very important to build devices that requiring
low radiation background.

Possible. Understand that environmentalists that post on The Straight Dope have a different take according to their agenda. Physics, however, has a different take. It's not physically possible. But you can believe Internet posts, or elementary physics. Your choice. Ciao. J



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Post #: 52
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/18/2013 6:30:55 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu
Steel produced prior WW2 is important for science.
It is called Low-background steel and is is very important to build devices that requiring
low radiation background.

Possible. Understand that environmentalists that post on The Straight Dope have a different take according to their agenda. Physics, however, has a different take. It's not physically possible. But you can believe Internet posts, or elementary physics. Your choice. Ciao. J



The Straight Dope

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2971/is-steel-from-scuttled-german-warships-valuable-because-it-isn-t-contaminated-with-radioactivity

Maybe you're thinking: at last, a use for that pocket battleship I inherited from Mom. Sorry, the market for old steel is now pretty much sunk. Reduced radioactive dust plus sophisticated instrumentation that corrects for background radiation means new steel can now be used in most cases. There's some lingering demand for really old maritime metal, though. When researchers at one national lab wanted shielding that emitted no radiation whatsoever, they used lead ballast retrieved from the Spanish galleon San Ignacio, which had been lying on the bottom of the Caribbean for 450 years.

When you say physics says it's not possible, what exactly are you saying is not possible?

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(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 53
RE: also, a WWII Dutch Submarine completely salvaged - 12/18/2013 9:39:25 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Interested as well. The wiki article I found is quite short and contains the "citation needed" tag a few times too often for my taste.

Also the link list is very short:
A link to the straightdope article you posted, the others only are not directly related (the IAEA link does not refer to low background steel, and the UNSC article focuses on "sources and effects of ionizing radiation").

Google reveals a couple of scientific articles but those are only superficially related to the topic as well.

Might well be an urban legend...

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 12/18/2013 11:05:30 PM >


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