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OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 2:47:58 PM   
M60A3TTS


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I'm in my game with smokindave. He gets a clear weather turn during which time he surrounds most of a N Caucasus front.

In the next turn, we get mud so it's impossible for me to break them free. But, I took the added step on the clear turn of putting two airbases in the pocket and loading up two airbases outside the pocket with transports.

On the mud turn, I flew in enough supplies that all but two units had airhead supply. They went from red to orange supply status.

Now I get the turn back and everyone surrendered. What just happened here?



The rule as it is supposed to work:

v1.05.18 - September 6, 2011
Airhead supply. Isolated air units may be changed to beach/air supply status (same as old beachhead status) under certain conditions. If a player flies in supplies to an air base in a pocket, the supplies will immediately be distributed amongst all of the isolated units that can trace to the air base. If the amount received during the turn at some point equals 5% or more of the total needs of the unit, then the unit will be immediately set to beach/air supply status (it will display in orange instead of red when toggle unsupplied units is toggled on). The total needs are the supply+fuel+ammo needs listed for the unit. So a division with total needs of 1100 tons of s/f/a have at least 55 tons flown in and delivered to the unit, it will have its supply status changed from isolated to beach/air supply status. This will last until the next friendly logistics phase. Units with beach/air supply will always pay penalties for being short of ammo, so there is a disadvantage in combat to be in beach/air supply (but it's better than being isolated where there are additional penalties). The air base must be in a clear or light woods hex. When in Beach/Air supply, the unit detail screen will show the information: Air Head Supply 400 / 20 (5%) which indicates the total amount of supplies+fuel+ammo the unit needs, the amount it has received via air resupply, and the total percentage of needs that has been met. When in Air Transport mode, the player can left click on an air base and then bring up that unit's detail screen to see a full list of all isolated unit that can trace to the air base, the total need of each unit, and the amount of supplies that have been sent to the unit. On the right side of that screen is a line that reads Air Supply Range: 10. By clicking on this line, the player may enter a different number from 1 to 10. Only units within the state range in hexes of the air base will be sent supplies that are airlifted to this air base. Air base units may be moved before supplies are delivered to it, but once it receives supplies for isolated units, it will not be able to move and then receive additional supplies for isolated units. Units that are merged or divided track the amount of air head supplies received, so they can lose their supplied status if no longer over the 5% threshold. The Soviet player may not fly airhead supply on the first turn of any scenario starting in June 1941.
Units in beachhead/Air head supply will not suffer more than a 33% reduction in CV due to supply shortages (used to be it could be up to a 75% reduction in CV).
Post #: 1
RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 3:20:01 PM   
Flaviusx


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Perhaps they surrendered due to a lack of valid hex to retreat to? Am not sure if airhead supply allows you to rout out of a pocket or not. If not, the attacking player could simply herd the pocket until the defenders have nowhere to retreat to.

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RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 5:13:18 PM   
smokindave34


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When I opened the turn about 75% of the units showed a "orange" supply status. I wasn't sure myself what the effect would be of defeating the units in combat. Initially some units retreated until there was no valid hex to retreat to - at that point they surrendered. Not sure if this was by design or not.

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RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 5:17:47 PM   
SigUp

 

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I guess by design. It would be quite a feat for units to bend space and time and arrive outside of a solid pocket.

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RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 5:23:26 PM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

I guess by design. It would be quite a feat for units to bend space and time and arrive outside of a solid pocket.


Yet half the population of each city does just that

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RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 5:23:53 PM   
carlkay58

 

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I know that they should not Rout out of the pocket, but as to the specifics as to why they retreated I don't know without looking at the saved game. Probably the inability to retreat further.

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RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 5:28:34 PM   
SigUp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439


quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

I guess by design. It would be quite a feat for units to bend space and time and arrive outside of a solid pocket.


Yet half the population of each city does just that

Just see it as them running away before the Germans reach the city. I doubt the civilian population would just wait until the Germans knock at the door, before trying to escape.

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RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 5:38:05 PM   
morvael


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Airhead supply does not allow routing out of pockets. All it does is protection from worst CV reductions caused by isolation, but they are still there (in the 40-60% range from normal values) so it's still possible to kill those units given enough forces to do so. All it does is making those defenders offer more resistance, but not like normally supplied units.

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Post #: 8
RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 5:43:31 PM   
Denniss

 

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Morvael, if you still have some time for it please check population evacuation out of isolated areas for .13.
Also when fighting for a city I sometimes see evacuation messages at the beginning of the combat and after combat again.

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RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 6:16:33 PM   
M60A3TTS


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@ Morvael: Then the whole airhead supply rule is worthless. Any Axis player knows that if you surround a non FZ Soviet unit on turn one and attack it, it routs out of the pocket. Why? Because it starts the turn IN SUPPLY. Airhead supply puts a unit IN SUPPLY at the start of the Axis players phase. So attacking a surrounded unit should have the same result- it should rout out of the pocket if rules are to be consistent.

Evidently they are not. So in the end, even though I'm in Level3 forts, and in supply I still get wiped out while my opponent suffer minimal losses by simply pushing units into a pile.

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Post #: 10
RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 6:20:37 PM   
Flaviusx


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Not useless, M60, it will make the units stronger and if they've got room to retreat in, much less likely to surrender. Truly out of supply and isolated units almost always surrender on the first retreat result.

But it's not a magic teleportation device, nor should it be.

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Post #: 11
RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 7:05:33 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Magic teleportation is built in the game, just like insta-surrender. Airhead supply should allow for units to keep fighting. You know, the whole Demyansk Pocket thing.

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Post #: 12
RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 8:30:25 PM   
morvael


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Looking at Demyansk in 42 Campaign it looks like a blockade - Soviets around are just as weak as the Germans. Defenders are even not isolated fully, fortified and in great terrain. Most units are static. Even when fully cut off, with an airbase inside, Soviets can't conquer them without serious reinforcement. That's different when low morale units (a lot of isolation CV reduction depends on morale, with 50 being the crucial level) are surrounded in clear terrain and quickly mopped up by panzers. I do see problems connected to low stack limit - normally much more units could be squeezed into a single hex, especially if understrength, but nothing can be done about it in WitE.

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RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 11:43:28 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


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quote:

@ Morvael: Then the whole airhead supply rule is worthless. Any Axis player knows that if you surround a non FZ Soviet unit on turn one and attack it, it routs out of the pocket. Why? Because it starts the turn IN SUPPLY. Airhead supply puts a unit IN SUPPLY at the start of the Axis players phase. So attacking a surrounded unit should have the same result- it should rout out of the pocket if rules are to be consistent.

Evidently they are not. So in the end, even though I'm in Level3 forts, and in supply I still get wiped out while my opponent suffer minimal losses by simply pushing units into a pile.


I agree with M60. Beachhead supply is just not enough to make this feature worthwhile the effort. I've tried it several times. Once I even supplied the entire remaining Lvov pocket on T2. It's pointless.

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Post #: 14
RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/14/2013 11:44:22 PM   
Bozo_the_Clown


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quote:

When I opened the turn about 75% of the units showed a "orange" supply status.


M60, did you move your troops after you supplied the pocket? Just curious.

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Post #: 15
RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/15/2013 12:07:55 AM   
smokindave34


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It certainly seems as though the air supply elevated the defensive CV's of the units. Most stacks had defensive CV's in the mid 20's. I think that is the advantage of being supplied from the air. Fortunately I had my strongest armored units in the area and was able to get some victories. Without the armored units I doubt my Landsers would have been able to win more than a handful of battles. They would have certainly struggled with the multi-corps stacks in level 3 forts.

< Message edited by smokindave34 -- 12/15/2013 1:09:12 AM >

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Post #: 16
RE: OK, so what just happened here - 12/15/2013 12:48:09 AM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

quote:

When I opened the turn about 75% of the units showed a "orange" supply status.


M60, did you move your troops after you supplied the pocket? Just curious.


I only moved a couple a short distance because as you're probably aware, moving or merging them can impact the 5% minimum supply threshold of that unit, potentially taking it back to an isolated state.

So lesson learned here, I'll just move on and rebuild the front in due course.



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Post #: 17
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