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Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon

 
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Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/13/2013 10:41:34 PM   
Devast8or

 

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Hi

I've been playing around with the editor trying to figure a way to activate radars on SAMs based on contact.
Initially they would inherit the passive state for the radar. The idea was to divide SAMs into sectors and assign each sector a Strike Intercept mission. The mission was supposed to be activated on Unfriendly contact. The thing is that they always have their radars on, even if I disable the missions.

Is it supposed to be like this? I want SAM radars hidden initially only to be turned on as they see contacts. If I have them inherit Passive all the time they don't do anything even if there is a air war above their head.
Is there another way of doing this? Also I'd like to see a Posture action, like changing Posture between sides if a contact has been in a certain area for a while..

I'm running 1.02 B478

< Message edited by davorp -- 12/13/2013 11:44:00 PM >
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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/13/2013 10:58:40 PM   
bsq


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Think you may need to assign them to a mission, but have that mission on an infinite delay (as in it activates after the scenario ends) from the scenario start time. That way the radars inherit the emcon silent from the side doctrine and then you can have them switch on/off according to your mission, events and triggers.

I had to do something similar with CAPs to simulate a day only interceptor force. There may still be an issue with the inactivate mission, so once active you may not be able to set it to inactive.

Edit

Seems that works, just set a batch of coastal surveillance radars to come on according to a mission setting.

Edit 2

Added a SAM site to this mission and it activated its EW radar only

Added a SAM complex to the mission and the EW/HF radars of the long range SAM switched on but then so did the FCR's on the point defence systems (which I would not want on continually).

Seems like you will have to play around with hierarchy and subordination to make this work - as indeed will I as my scenario uses AD Sectors too

< Message edited by bsq -- 12/14/2013 12:40:38 AM >

(in reply to Devast8or)
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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/13/2013 11:33:19 PM   
Devast8or

 

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Hmm can't get mine to work. They are On all the time. May I ask what your mission parameters are?

I set all missions to inactive, set time several months in future and Mission Triggers when contact is at minimum hostile.
It feels like it Triggers no matter contact or not.


(in reply to bsq)
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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/13/2013 11:41:21 PM   
bsq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: davorp

Hmm can't get mine to work. They are On all the time. May I ask what your mission parameters are?

I set all missions to inactive, set time several months in future and Mission Triggers when contact is at minimum hostile.
It feels like it Triggers no matter contact or not.



See edit 2 above, this may be due to what your SAM's have at the sites?

If not consider using Air Defence Zone. Basically create an area where if an opposing aircraft enters it you will light up your SAM's. This will keep your SAM's silent until you need to activate them.

< Message edited by bsq -- 12/14/2013 12:47:48 AM >

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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/13/2013 11:57:09 PM   
Devast8or

 

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Seems my issue is that unit assigned is always on mission even if mission is inactive. Are you using same version as me?
I'm trying this with SA3 and SA6

< Message edited by davorp -- 12/14/2013 1:04:00 AM >

(in reply to bsq)
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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/14/2013 1:49:13 AM   
bsq


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SA-3 should behave
SA-6 will not

The reason is that SA-3 is modelled with a seperate EW radar for Target Acquisition, whereas SA-6 is not.

Therefore to initially acquire with SA-6 as modelled, will require the Straight Flush to light up.

I am using B479

(in reply to Devast8or)
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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/14/2013 4:33:02 AM   
TMP95

 

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Yeah, what is the best way to create a simple "interceptor" force? That launches only if unfriendly/unknown aircraft get to a certain point.

Likewise, does not the AI (enemy AI) know to some point when to turn on / off radars when using SAMs?

It is somewhat difficult to set a sides doctrine to "passive" radars while at the same time expecting / WANTING SAMs or EW systems to still be looking out for enemy (or better yet just unknown aircraft).

In trying to just play around with editor and do simple looks at North Korea for example. How do I get them to fire off SAMs, while at the same time not having all their radars set to "on / active" at the start?

(in reply to bsq)
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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/14/2013 4:50:14 AM   
bsq


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I have found that grouping them together in missions is the best way ahead.
You can have to following divisions then:

1. EW radars - always active - this will likely have to include height finders (although not wholly accurate)
2. Strategic SAM units with 'on site' TA systems - set to active as this will switch on the TA radar only
3. Tactical SAM units with no modelled on site TA systems - these would need to be linked to engagement zones to respond to intruders - the zones would likely need to be set at 1.5x the range of the system
4. An interceptor force could be done the same way. Create a mission that triggers when the enemy enter the ADZ.

(in reply to TMP95)
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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/14/2013 5:26:24 AM   
TMP95

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq

I have found that grouping them together in missions is the best way ahead.
You can have to following divisions then:

1. EW radars - always active - this will likely have to include height finders (although not wholly accurate)
2. Strategic SAM units with 'on site' TA systems - set to active as this will switch on the TA radar only
3. Tactical SAM units with no modelled on site TA systems - these would need to be linked to engagement zones to respond to intruders - the zones would likely need to be set at 1.5x the range of the system
4. An interceptor force could be done the same way. Create a mission that triggers when the enemy enter the ADZ.


Ok. So place all your EW systems (Group them into one group) then give them an "active" radar within their Group profile only.

Strategic SAMs (such as SA-2s, SA-3s SA-10s) these likewise group and set to active. As they will use proper radar technique.

With the tactical SAMs, group these but do NOT set them to active. Give each of these a mission profile.

Thanks for advice.

< Message edited by TMP95 -- 12/14/2013 6:27:31 AM >

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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/14/2013 5:53:14 AM   
bsq


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you dont have to assign them to a group, just assign them to a mission that requires the correct emcon level.

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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/14/2013 10:08:09 AM   
Tomcat84

 

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One thing I've experimented with for mobile SAMs like the SA-6 that you might not know an exact location of and that might be lurking with radars off is to place them on the south pole with radars on, and teleport them into position when a unit enters an area near it, simulating that then it would light up and reveal itself in order to try and engage the close by unit.

_____________________________

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(in reply to bsq)
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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/14/2013 2:14:32 PM   
Devast8or

 

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Maybe you guys can help me understand few things.

The SA-3 has Low Blow radar illuminator and Flat Face B (P-19) Radar Air Search. The first has range of 32 and the second of 135. Turning on Radar in EMCON shows the P-19 radius. Looking at the Mount/Stores you can see that there is one vehicle /Flat Face B) so that is obvious that radar is emitted from a truck.

Now looking at the SA-6 it has no sensors but in mount section it shows 2 vehicles one for Straight Flush and the other for Fire Dome 9S35. Clicking on it's sensors shows two short range Surface to Air radars, one Straight Flush and the other Fire Dome. Enabling any of them shows Air sensor radius around the unit.

I don't understand how SA-3 and SA-6 are different when it comes to switching radars on/off, both need to do it to track and I want both silent until someone detects a unit.

(in reply to Tomcat84)
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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/14/2013 2:40:09 PM   
bsq


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Ok, so an SA-3 has Low Blow, a highly directional, limited range system. Because it is a strategic (generally fixed site) SAM, it also gets an EW radar (used for TA) assigned to the battery directly. Hence you see the Flat Face. Now Flat Face is really an EW radar with quite a good range - so you see the range ring. Because the game uses two radars on two vehicles it can switch one of them on - the Flat Face.

SA-6 (although I disagree with the Fire Dome, I think I understand why for game purposes it is there) has a radar vehicle with 2/3 transimitting parts IRL. The game merges these into 1 radar - again this must be a game limitation, but I would have to ask Ragnar (Emsoy) about that. IRL these components are a rotating Target Acquisition with stacked beams. A Target Tracker from the round dish and an illuminator for the missiles to home on.

If you look here, you get a good picture (inside and out) of the radar vehicle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2K12_Kub

Stick an EW radar near your SA-6 and set that to active - Long Track is a good choice - it should, I believe, share data with the SA-6 if the data link thing that Sunburn described works across the board in the game.

(in reply to Devast8or)
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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/14/2013 2:42:31 PM   
Devast8or

 

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I still can't get it to work, am I using wrong mission. This is how I set it up. Grouped S3, set the mission to delay and trigger on unknwon contact with EMCON set to activate Radar




Attachment (1)

(in reply to bsq)
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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/14/2013 2:45:41 PM   
Devast8or

 

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One click into the game and this happens. Both turn on their radars and I don't even have any other units on the map.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 15
RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/14/2013 2:52:19 PM   
bsq


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Thats correct, now if you want to confuse the opponents picture, you add some other Flat Face radars that are not part of an SA-3 site - and all you are telling the othere side is you have your EW radars on, which is perfectly normal.

Once aircraft are detected and within the 32 mile (or closer) range of your Low Blow, then they will light up too.

Right now all the enemy knows is there are two Flat Face radars on - but to see this and feel better about it, switch to the other side, put an ESM equiped aircraft up outside of 150 miles from your sites and see what it sees...

For your SA-6, chose to not have the unit auto-detecable....

< Message edited by bsq -- 12/14/2013 4:01:14 PM >

(in reply to Devast8or)
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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/14/2013 8:23:05 PM   
Devast8or

 

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Thanks bsq, got it now. One more question, does not an RWR detect EW radar? I had a MIG-21 in the air and it does not see any EW radars...

< Message edited by davorp -- 12/14/2013 11:07:10 PM >

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RE: Possible Bug with Mission and Emcon - 12/15/2013 7:55:45 PM   
bsq


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Not necessarily if they have modelled the RWR so it is not just a 'sponge'. The system may not have sufficient gain to see it or it might above/below the frequency limits of any given RWR - again it depends on how it is modelled in the game.

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