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RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE

 
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RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 12/16/2013 2:07:27 AM   
Toidi

 

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I don't want to sound critical, but some of the changes need to be rather carefully evaluated. I am worried that the balance of armaments (not great still, Axis is still having shortages) and casualties may be affected which may in turn unbalance the whole game.

From top of my head, there are 2 extra issues: (1) I think the blast radius was responsible for the leaders casualties in HQ - in .11 I regularly bomb hq with *not a single* casualty of a leader - and hope that this patch will not change that. (2) with infantry weapons attacking tanks, the chances were reduced, I think because of too many tanks being destroyed by AT rifles.

Hope my worries are unfounded. Besides, thanks Morvael for improving the game.

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 31
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 12/16/2013 3:44:55 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

Very nice work Morvael, I got some questions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Loveridge
3. Formula Change - Improved the formula which decides whether a unit should be motorized or not. By default all armor, mechanized, motorized, SP artillery, HQ and airbase units will be motorized. Support units attached to motorized combat units will be also motorized (such units will be demotorized when attached back to HQ, unless it’s their natural state). Units containing “Motorized “ or “SP “ in their TOE suffix will be also motorized (this is for flavor, to make units like “Motorized Flak Battalion” or “LW Motorized Flak Battalion” or “LW SP Light Flak Battalion” show up as motorized). It may require advancing to the next turn for the motorized status to adjust properly. Previously, support units attached to motorized combat units had requirements like motorized units, but their motorized status was still showing up as non-motorized.


What's the actual impact of this? Does this mean that up to now the pressure on the vehicle pools from tear and wear were substantially lower than it should?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew
1. Fixed a bug with some support units attached to HQ units being resupplied nearly for free. For example a support unit had 132 tons of supply added at a cost of just 1 supply dump from the HQ; also all needs below 1 ton (2000lbs) were resupplied for free.
2. Fixed a bug with HQ units reporting their supply needs as fuel needs. When the supply stock was above 100% of supply needs, this generated negative fuel need and reduced global cost of moving supplies in vehicles and fuel.
3. Fixed a bug with support units attached to combat units, and construction units attached to FBD/NKPS units, not reporting their needs to proper HQ unit, causing said HQ to have supply shortages when it shouldn’t.
4. Fixed a bug with support units attached to combat units not being able to return excess fuel.
5. Fixed a bug with support units attached to combat units to always require fuel (even when full), if another support unit created earlier, attached to the same combat unit, required fuel.
6. Fixed a bug with support units attached to combat units to generate higher vehicle need (1/10 of their parent unit vehicles, instead of 1/10 of their own vehicles) and with support units attached to HQs to generate lower vehicle need (0 instead of 1/10 of their own vehicles).
27. Fixed a bug with units not on buildup and having trucks equal to their need not to respond to truck shortage by giving up their vehicles.
36. Hiwis and pilots in airbases and soldiers in damaged elements will now eat.
37. Hiwis will now require trucks to carry them in motorized units.
38. Horses will now eat half of fodder even when stationary, with the other half reserved for paying for movement.
39. Infantry elements in cavalry units will now require horse wagons to carry them.


#2 Looks to me as a quite important thing, that goes a long way to explain why logistics seemed so easy to me. #38 is also quite big, as both the Soviet and the German army rely quite a bit on horse-drawn carriages, this would make generic supply less abundant as well. Has this - and the rest of the fixes which might seem minor but kind of accumulate - made a noticeable difference in the gameplay?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew
55. Fixed a bug with secondary (other than in first slot) weapons in ground elements that belong to infantry and mechanized infantry classes having much reduced chance to fire. The idea behind the rule was to limit effectiveness of secondary weapons, like machine guns on tanks and side arms of gun crews, but it doesn’t look realistic when a 10-man squad armed with 8 rifles, a single SMG and a single LMG is severely limited in using that SMG and LMG, which are actually operated by dedicated soldiers.
56. Fixed a bug where large blast weapons (blast 10 and above) were limited from hitting more than one target with a single shot due to ammo expenditure check being made before large blast allowed another hit from that shot (and usually due to rate of fire less than 2, they were already limited to just a single shot at given range).


Are we to expect higher casualty rates in combat? #55 looks like a quite huge thing to me.



Your answer?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3498040


_____________________________

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(in reply to BletchleyGeek)
Post #: 32
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 12/16/2013 8:16:47 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

What's the actual impact of this? Does this mean that up to now the pressure on the vehicle pools from tear and wear were substantially lower than it should?

#2 Looks to me as a quite important thing, that goes a long way to explain why logistics seemed so easy to me. #38 is also quite big, as both the Soviet and the German army rely quite a bit on horse-drawn carriages, this would make generic supply less abundant as well. Has this - and the rest of the fixes which might seem minor but kind of accumulate - made a noticeable difference in the gameplay?

Are we to expect higher casualty rates in combat? #55 looks like a quite huge thing to me.


1) Most of these changes are cosmetic - support units attached to motorized unit were already using trucks like they were motorized, but it wasn't reflected in the description. And the "Motorized Flak" units are few in number, this is done only to improve historical accuracy. The German truck need should stay the same (they have a mix of SUs attached to HQs and combat units all the time), early Soviet truck need should go up (SUs in HQs weren't using trucks), late Soviet truck need should go down (once they start attaching SUs to combat units, they truck need will not raise as such). Wear & tear from moving supplies will be higher in bad weather, but the other categories of truck losses should go down (esp. from movement).

2) #2 wasn't actually that big, as the HQ itself doesn't use many supplies. #1 was the biggest and resulted in hundreds of dumps left at the HQ which shouldn't be there (lowering the truck need & use and improving supply status for the next turn). Yes, those fixes accumulate over turns making logistics less lax and thus maybe finally they will work as intended from the beginning.

3) #55 is indeed big but it was so logical to fix this that I couldn't resist. As I say - now that secondary weapons finally work, perhaps some (grenades, satchel charges, panzershrecks) could be reduced in their effectiveness.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

Can someone break down the practical, in-game effects of these changes, or perhaps the "developer intent" behind them?



No time to go one by one in detail, so you will have to pick a few that interest you most and ask. Usually the fixes are results out of finding: broken math (especially caused by doing it on integral numbers and/or due to variable sizes and types problems), working differently than described in code comments and/or manual, lacking sense (like a detail of 8 men being armed with 4 rifles and 4 smgs having problems to fire those 4 smgs because they are listed as second) or simply being forgotten (like no food for horses).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Toidi

From top of my head, there are 2 extra issues: (1) I think the blast radius was responsible for the leaders casualties in HQ - in .11 I regularly bomb hq with *not a single* casualty of a leader - and hope that this patch will not change that. (2) with infantry weapons attacking tanks, the chances were reduced, I think because of too many tanks being destroyed by AT rifles.



Perhaps the accuracy and penetration of AT rifles is simply too big. They are not affected by fix #55, because AT rifles are usually their own ground elements and they are primary weapons of that element, so they already fired as many times as possible. And you can't blame game logic that when it sees armor it can pierce it will fire at those tanks. I have not touched leader casualties (if anything I would like to see them reduced, especially those which magically happen when recon planes pass close by). Logistics phase kills depend only on distance to enemy units, kills in combat and bombing seem to depend on number of ground elements in affected HQ unit (including support units attached) and caused hits, kills when relocating depend on supply status.


(in reply to BletchleyGeek)
Post #: 33
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 12/16/2013 10:36:34 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
1) Most of these changes are cosmetic - support units attached to motorized unit were already using trucks like they were motorized, but it wasn't reflected in the description. And the "Motorized Flak" units are few in number, this is done only to improve historical accuracy. The German truck need should stay the same (they have a mix of SUs attached to HQs and combat units all the time), early Soviet truck need should go up (SUs in HQs weren't using trucks), late Soviet truck need should go down (once they start attaching SUs to combat units, they truck need will not raise as such). Wear & tear from moving supplies will be higher in bad weather, but the other categories of truck losses should go down (esp. from movement).

2) #2 wasn't actually that big, as the HQ itself doesn't use many supplies. #1 was the biggest and resulted in hundreds of dumps left at the HQ which shouldn't be there (lowering the truck need & use and improving supply status for the next turn). Yes, those fixes accumulate over turns making logistics less lax and thus maybe finally they will work as intended from the beginning.

3) #55 is indeed big but it was so logical to fix this that I couldn't resist. As I say - now that secondary weapons finally work, perhaps some (grenades, satchel charges, panzershrecks) could be reduced in their effectiveness.


Thank you for the answers Morvael. I spent quite a bit of time analyzing how this engine worked out logistics and never really got around really understanding what was going on under the hood.

And yes, #55 is a logical fix - one that should clear the path to get rid of rules like the 1:1 -> 2:1 which always kind of sounded to me as a "fudge rule" to account for something that the tactical combat resolution couldn't get right.

_____________________________

Wite2 - Lead Tester

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 34
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 12/16/2013 10:40:42 AM   
morvael


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It's hard to analyze without acccess to code, especially if there are bugs like bad type casting that resupplies units but doesn't use any dumps for that. No wonder this couldn't be revealed earlier.

I'm also against "fudge" rules, but such is this design that it has some.

(in reply to BletchleyGeek)
Post #: 35
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/22/2014 1:56:49 AM   
Maximeba

 

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Can someone please help. I am trying to download version 12 with no luck. When I go to the members club I see the game War in the East. When I click on it I see a hyper link for version 12. When I click on that hyper link it take me to a site to purchase the game. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks,
Wes

_____________________________

Wes
Allies Forever

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 36
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/22/2014 5:50:33 PM   
pompack


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Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maximeba

Can someone please help. I am trying to download version 12 with no luck. When I go to the members club I see the game War in the East. When I click on it I see a hyper link for version 12. When I click on that hyper link it take me to a site to purchase the game. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks,
Wes


don't know. I just tried it and it worked

go to original post, click on link, click on v12, downloads

(in reply to Maximeba)
Post #: 37
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/23/2014 12:03:23 AM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 1982
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
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Is there a new supply rule can anyone tell me? It seems that my panzer corps HQs don't get any fuel at all if they're 25 or more hexes from the rail head.
Knowing me, it's probably always been this way and I just haven't noticed....DOH!!!
The two ss divisions also have just one mp.





Attachment (1)

(in reply to Toidi)
Post #: 38
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/23/2014 12:22:13 AM   
gingerbread


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Assuming this is 1.07.13, 25 hexes should be OK, but there have been problems before with ranges, like for BU. It took a couple of fixes.

However, the mouse over shows the current distance. You need to check the Supply Details of the HQ & the Pz Div. If they say 25 hexes during the supply phases, there is something wrong. Then file a bug report.

IAC, it's strange that the HQ did not pass on the fuel that it has to the Pz div. That ought to happen regardless of distance to rail.

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 39
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/23/2014 12:30:30 AM   
timmyab

 

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It's happened five or six times now in the South, every time with the lead pz corps. That's what makes me suspect that it could be the rail range that's causing the problem.

Yes it's 1.07.13

< Message edited by timmyab -- 1/23/2014 1:31:30 AM >

(in reply to gingerbread)
Post #: 40
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/23/2014 5:37:22 AM   
morvael


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25 may be after repair between supply sub phases. HQs get what they wanted in 2nd phase but units do not. Please post supply details screen for HQ and sample unit. Tooltip does not contain enough info.

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 41
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/23/2014 11:03:04 AM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 1982
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
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Supply details





Attachment (1)

(in reply to Toidi)
Post #: 42
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/23/2014 11:28:08 AM   
morvael


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So it's not a bug. Your HQ was out of range to rail in supply phase 1, and in such case units won't get much supplies (only HQ local stocks available for phase 1).

To make sure your units will get supply your HQ has to be in range to rail at the end of the previous turn. Even rail repaired by FBD/NKPS doesn't count, as it remains with 1 damage until after supply phase 1.

Scenario when HQ is out of range in phase 1, but not 2 is as follows:

phase 1
units want 100
HQ has 10, so requests 90
HQ gets nothing
units get 10

rail gets repaired

phase 2
HQ still requests 90
HQ gets 90 minus range penalties
units get nothing, except support units attached to the HQ and the HQ itself get something

This scenario results in HQ having large stocks, but combat units having almost no new supply.

It was so in the old system as well.

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 43
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/23/2014 11:59:56 AM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 1982
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
Thanks for explaining. timmyab = Homer Simpson
Does this mean that the HQ was also out of range during the previous turn's supply phases one and two and so had no local fuel dumps during phase one of this turn? Does that make any sense?

< Message edited by timmyab -- 1/23/2014 1:01:51 PM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 44
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/23/2014 12:38:08 PM   
gingerbread


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So this (from 20.4.2) is literal:

In the second supply sub-segment, combat, air base and rail repair units that could not get
supplies from the HQ unit to which they are attached will attempt to trace directly to the
railhead as if they were an HQ unit.
---
The Pz Div would probably have received more fuel from rail source in Phase 2 if it was out of range to its HQ.

Seems unrealistic that getting a small amount from HQ in Phase 1 prevents deliveries in Phase 2. Has it always been like that?

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 45
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/23/2014 12:51:23 PM   
morvael


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Yes, it was. I didn't want to change to much in this "logic". In all cases rules as printed were my final oracle, not the code. I felt free to change the code if it didn't conform with the rules, but not the other way round.

(in reply to gingerbread)
Post #: 46
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/23/2014 12:54:21 PM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

Thanks for explaining. timmyab = Homer Simpson
Does this mean that the HQ was also out of range during the previous turn's supply phases one and two and so had no local fuel dumps during phase one of this turn? Does that make any sense?


Rather it was in range and thus it distributed nearly all stocks to it's subordinate units in phase 1, leaving it with very low number of dumps on hand for the next turn.

The stocks should be:
phase 1 range YES + phase 2 range YES -> low dumps for the current turn, units replenished
phase 1 range NO + phase 2 range YES -> high dumps for the current turn, units not replenished
phase 1 range NO + phase 2 range NO -> low dumps for the current turn, units not replenished

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 47
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/24/2014 11:37:13 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Does it really have to be that digital - either you are in range or you are not. I mean, that is a lot like in a board wargame where you usually are in supply if within x hexes of your supply sorce, if you are not you are out of supply. In a computerized game of this complexity, one would expect that supply decreases gradually and that the player would not have to count hexes. I know there is a gradual effect in WITE, but there also seems to be these rather unforgiving steps that suddenly limits supply for the unwary.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 48
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/24/2014 12:13:53 PM   
gingerbread


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The WitE has granularity when in range. If out of, there is no supply.

That said, the example above shows that there are some quirks. However there is no need or benefit to stack the HQ with the units, so in this case it is avoidable.

I do understand and support Morvael's point regarding not implementing what would be a change of the rules as known to the players from the manual.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 49
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.12 for WitE - 1/29/2014 7:15:48 AM   
Banori

 

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thanks for Support over all These years

(in reply to gradenko2k)
Post #: 50
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.14 for WitE - 3/24/2014 2:20:50 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Updated to .14.

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Banori)
Post #: 51
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.14 for WitE - 3/24/2014 8:52:01 PM   
swkuh

 

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Thanks, using it.

Appreciate having an "official" 14Beta. Much easier to update files w/o doing the "zip" thing and moving files around.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 52
RE: New Public Beta V1.07.14 for WitE - 4/1/2014 1:20:32 AM   
Ketza


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36. Hiwis and pilots in airbases and soldiers in damaged elements will now eat.

Whew.... I was worried!


Thanks for the update gang

(in reply to swkuh)
Post #: 53
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