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RE: Still a Pain - 1/17/2014 6:40:45 PM   
Dabrion


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I have no emotional agreement with Matrix. They wont care if anyone hates/loves them, they care for ca$h, thats what a business does. You cannot discuss a product without a price point, things are coupled.. But when you compare to Mincraft wou also have a completely different marketing model. The other reasoning strikes me as the modern version of justifying Mussolinis' attack on France, by citing Hitlers' attack on Poland, with the remark: "look around the world is a bad place, you should have known better..". I am at a lack of words for that.. and I find you are not helping yourself as a future customer by making this kind of excuse. I hope you get something out of it.

But this is completely getting ot here!
I tried the resource piping again for the CW and I find no significant changes. There was also nothing in the patch notes concerning this, so I am not surprised. Question is rather, will the resource routing be addressed in the near future, with respect to CP from other major powers on your side and perhaps a toggle to disable the automatic routing?

_____________________________

“WiF is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.”
- Richard P. Feynman, 'WiF, Sex, and the Dual Slit Experiment'.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 61
RE: Still a Pain - 1/17/2014 11:36:54 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Sorry for the misinterpation of my posting as that is not what I was trying to say. But as you say this is OT so I will just drop it No harm, no foul.

(in reply to Dabrion)
Post #: 62
Less Thinking is Needed - 1/18/2014 3:15:52 PM   
Omnius


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I've gotten to the point where I won't open up the Production Planning Screen until I reach the Preliminary Production Planning Phase. I don't because every time we open up the Production Planning Screen the evil convoy routine starts thinking and rethinking stuff. What's needed is for the program to not do any thinking about convoy routing until the Production Planning Phase so we can peacefully open up that screen to see what's up with oil usage for reorganization.

It's really a shame that we can't do convoy routing in the Naval Movement Phase where we can get our convoy routing squared away to see if we need to send more transports to a sea area or if we can take some unused ones out of an area. While we can change convoy routing before the Preliminary Production Planning Phase the stupid program will recalculate our changes into some idiotic new arrangement.

It sure would be nice if the program were set to optimize convoy point usage, it should be able to use the most efficient convoy routing. I always shudder at what resource the Artificial Ignorance will use when starting a trade agreement, especially between the CW and China. The stupid program seems to try to use the farthest resource away from the country being traded to and loves to use resources from the British Home Island. I hate watching the Coventry resource being shipped off to China when nearer ones in Malaya are available and not being used.

What needs to get fixed is the In-Place resource allocations. There's nothing more stupid than watching the Coventry resource being shipped to somewhere else when there's a factory in Coventry. I found that I can't use that In-Place resource allocation for Coventry and have it stay. I found that in order to set it as a default and have it not change I have to ship the Coventry resource to a factory in another city and ship a resource from somewhere else to the Coventry factory. That is just totally stupid and frustrating! Make In-Place resource allocation to a factory in the same hex the most favored allocation, not the least favored.

I sure hope convoy routing gets improved in a major way soon, I've given up on MWiF for a while and decided to buy the Armada 2526 and it's Supernova upgrade so that I can enjoy playing a game. I'm very frustrated that playing MWiF is so much work and frustration early on mainly because convoy routing is such a pathetic routine. While some minor improvement has been made in convoy routing and oil saving it's still a major impediment to actually being able to enjoy playing MWiF.

Omnius

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 63
RE: Still a Pain - 1/18/2014 5:58:23 PM   
ashkpa


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Understand how to use the route function, have used it multiple time. It allows the first NEI resource to go directly to the E. Indian Ocean, but not the second. NEI is not active.

Tried to upload the saved game file, but it indicates it is not supported.

(in reply to joshuamnave)
Post #: 64
RE: Still a Pain - 1/18/2014 6:44:26 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ashkpa

Understand how to use the route function, have used it multiple time. It allows the first NEI resource to go directly to the E. Indian Ocean, but not the second. NEI is not active.

Tried to upload the saved game file, but it indicates it is not supported.


In windows, you can save it as a zipped file, if you right click on the name of the saved game. That format you can put in the forums, so we can pick it up...

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(in reply to ashkpa)
Post #: 65
RE: Still a Pain - 1/19/2014 12:20:52 AM   
ashkpa


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Ok, here is the zipped file. One NEI resource routes through the E. Indies Ocean. I'd like the other to do the same(it may need to go through Telok Betong and not Batavia due to straight restrictions)

Thanks,

Pat

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 66
RE: Still a Pain - 7/28/2014 4:04:49 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ashkpa

Ok, here is the zipped file. One NEI resource routes through the E. Indies Ocean. I'd like the other to do the same(it may need to go through Telok Betong and not Batavia due to straight restrictions)

Thanks,

Pat

I was able to get both oil points to go to Canberra. The program seems to prefer sending them through the South China Sea (using a French convoy therein), probably because that goes directly into the sea area and does not "use up" a port capacity. TO get this to work, I had to delete both the routes and make them manually.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to ashkpa)
Post #: 67
RE: Still a Pain - 11/25/2020 3:44:04 PM   
Lucky13


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

I have no emotional agreement with Matrix. They wont care if anyone hates/loves them, they care for ca$h...


Yeah.

I’ve had it with this game and this game developer now!

1. I will be contacting Australian Design Group.

2. Can I please have my money back or do you (matrixgames) want a legal fight?

(in reply to Dabrion)
Post #: 68
RE: Still a Pain - 12/13/2020 6:17:53 PM   
TrogusP96

 

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Hi

I've been away for awhile and have thought to come back if convoy situation was improved and the optional rules added.

(in reply to Lucky13)
Post #: 69
RE: Still a Pain - 12/14/2020 8:43:55 AM   
Joseignacio


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It's a pain in the ass, it should be so simple to let you somehow decide from and to where convoys go ans save it as a default, and override it by yourself...

Don't know why the program needs to decide this for you and wrongly send a resource around Africa when you want it through the Med or send it from USA East Coast to Central Atlantic, when it was supposed to go through North Atlantic, thus using a convoy needed for a Guyana resource for example.

I don't doubt that Steven has made the resources reach where intended, but you need to learn an iterative process correcting once and again all the routes, while the computer disorganizes the rest and have a lot of patience and inspiration for that.

Even having to decide for each resource which seas it will cross and which ports it will call, one by one, would save a lot of time and worries.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 12/14/2020 8:49:06 AM >

(in reply to TrogusP96)
Post #: 70
RE: Still a Pain - 12/14/2020 3:03:42 PM   
Centuur


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No, it doesn't. A good AI needs good production planning calculations. The mistake I first made, was trying to do everything manually. That is a trap.

I almost never have problems with production planning anymore. I let the computer calculate things, use as few default settings as possible and I use no overrides at all.

The way I do this, is as follows:

First: check if traded oil resources are processed correctly. I never have problems with the Canadian resource going to China. I can change that one always to be the one in Burma.

Second: check if traded non-oil resources are processed correctly.

Third: check if the right factory sends traded build points.

Fourth: Which oil resources are to be saved.

Fifth: which resources are currently not using the right convoy route.

In all those steps, I always press the calculate button after changing something (on a line basis). When traded resources (or build points) are concerned, I always check the receiving major power immediately to see if they go to the right factory or city (so, if f.e. I change the Canadian oil resource to the Burmese one at the CW, I press the calculate button there and go to China to save the oil point at Kunming. Press the calculate button there and go back to the CW to see if things are OK. Than the next line gets changed, if necessary).

I never close any major power on a side, before all major powers on that side are correct.

And finally: make all those changes at the prelimenary production phase. And when you are in a netplay game, don't stop playing (or reload) between the prelimenary production phase and the end of the production phase (building units), since reloading saved games between those phases might mess up things.

But to be honest, it took me an awful lot of time before I understood how to handle this.

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Post #: 71
RE: Still a Pain - 12/14/2020 3:26:35 PM   
Joseignacio


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Thanks a lot, your system looks very similar, if not the same as in the video.

I tried to do the same except discriminating oil because we are not using oil rules but we can save oil. In this case I created the convoy lines for CW, in a way that I moved 18 resources to UK, 17 for production and 1 oil for saving, so oil was not a big deal.

I tried to do all these steps, but suddenly I realized when I assigned a resource to, say, Newcastle, one factory more became idle in London. It was frustrating, it happened all the time.

I was so furious and so involved that it was my opponent who had to guess the truth: the reason why the machine kept cancelling or manipulating my orders was that there were not enough convoys doing the proper rutes ( Like going from Cape st vincent to East coast and then arriving at the Feroes, for example), then I tried to make some changes with the convoys but the defaults and overrides were so massive already that the machine started not to let me see the list of seas the convoys were crossing, even following the right steps, much less edit them.

I know I was following the steps because later on I reloaded as to review the game, at the beginning of the preliminary, and this time it let me see which seas the resource was moving through.

With all this against, and running out of time I had to cancel the work of 30 or 50 min and let it for next friday, where fun will go on.

I hope when I finally set this up I will only have to do the overrides due to sub war, or I may have a rage attack. Keep you posted.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 12/14/2020 3:28:15 PM >

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 72
RE: Still a Pain - 12/17/2020 8:08:52 AM   
davidc


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I agree with Centuur

The two most important things are:
1. Once you start production don't stop. The save game file does not save your production choices. This goes for both netplay and play-by-mail. Keep going until you get to the first build phase then you can save.
2. The more trade agreements you have the more trouble you will have with production. This is unavoidable but don't let it discourage you. Centuur's tips on how to go through production do work.

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Post #: 73
RE: Still a Pain - 12/18/2020 2:22:21 AM   
Joseignacio


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Thanks. Today I did a new scrap+setup in a solitaire game, then passed all the turns, and finally dedicated myself to doing the CW production/convoying

I was able to do it. It was not easy, but the things that didn't seem to work the previous time did work this one.

I tried a certain approach, while following 1st and 2nd of Centuur's phases: The bigger problem seems to be for CW in the North Atlantic/Mid Athlantic, basically because the game insists in saturating the Bay of Biscay with part or all the canadian and caribbean resources that are usually sent thorough the Feroes, in my case 10 in total, this causes a block that impedes the persian and cretan resources to get out of the Med and the African and Guyana ones not to be able to pass further than Cape St VIncent.

I rerouted first all the wrongly selected canadian and caribbean resources through Feroes, then all the ones blocked in Cape St Vincent ---> Bay of Biscay could pass, and so I drew again the maritime lines for them, correcting first the persian from going to poland for no use at all. Miracle! Everything was fine.

One of the things that made me crazy the previous day were the rerouting system, which was not working, I believe I may have been doing left click instead of right click to edit it.

And one thing that is not like in MWIF and made me go around like a chicken without a head was that according to MWIF you cannot save Oil if you have not selected both Oil Rules and Saving optionals. In WIF only the second is necessary, don't know if this is a bug or intentional for MWIF. This gave me a bad time as well the previous day, I didn't knnow why although there was a message cause I was very nervous by then and couldnt imagine this had changed from WIF.

(in reply to davidc)
Post #: 74
RE: Still a Pain - 12/18/2020 2:51:27 AM   
Courtenay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
And one thing that is not like in MWIF and made me go around like a chicken without a head was that according to MWIF you cannot save Oil if you have not selected both Oil Rules and Saving optionals. In WIF only the second is necessary, don't know if this is a bug or intentional for MWIF. This gave me a bad time as well the previous day, I didn't knnow why although there was a message cause I was very nervous by then and couldnt imagine this had changed from WIF.

Interesting. Is this an official ruling? I have always played it the way MWiF does it -- if you aren't playing with oil, you can't save oil.

There is nothing one way or another about whether you can save oil if you aren't using oil in the FAQ.

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(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 75
RE: Still a Pain - 12/18/2020 11:57:19 AM   
Joseignacio


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RAW

quote:

13.5.1 Oil (AfA option 48)
If you are playing with this option, you only automatically turn units face-up during the final reorganization step if they are not oil dependent. To flip oil dependent units, you must spend oil resources.

Oil dependent units are shown on the Unit costs chart (see 28).

You can only use your own oil to flip your units face-up. Even oil controlled by co-operating major powers can’t help. However, communist and nationalist Chinese can use each other’s oil.

You do not have to transport the oil anywhere. But you must be able to trace a path from the unit to the oil resource. This path is exactly like a basic supply path (including via overseas) (see 2.4.2) except that it can be of any length.

No more than 5 units can trace a path to the same oil resource.

Work out how many oil dependent units you want to flip face-up. Each HQ-I counts as 2 units, each HQ-A counts as 3 and each aircraft that takes 2 turns to build counts as half a unit. Divide the total by 5. This is the minimum number of oil resources (whether from the current turn or saved) that you must spend. This means that you can turn 2 units face-up for nothing (because 0.4 rounds to zero).

If 3 or more units trace a path to the same oil resource, you must spend that resource. This may mean that you will have to spend more oil resources than the minimum number.

Example: You have only 2 oil resources and 6 face-down oil dependent units. You will have to spend a minimum of 1 oil resource to flip them face-up because 6/5 = 1.2, which rounds to 1. You will only have to spend the minimum if 4 or 5 of the units can trace a path to the same resource. But suppose that 3 units can only trace to 1 of the resources and the other 3 can only trace to the second resource. In that case, you would have to spend both resources to flip all 6 units face-up.

SiF option 9: Each naval unit (CVPiF/SiF option 56: or carrier plane) you turn face-up counts as half a unit and each convoy point counts as a quarter of a unit.

CLiF option 75: Each CA or CL you turn face-up counts as a quarter of a unit.

Saved oil resources (AfA option 31)

You can save oil resources you used neither in production nor to reorganise units. A major power can only save oil if it was transported to a city or port it controls. Put an oil resource marker on that city or port to indicate how many oil resources you are saving there.

You may save only 1 oil marker (of any value) in each city or port (cumulative) you control and double these limits in your major power’s capital (e.g. The Commonwealth can save 16 oil (4 x 4) in London). You can’t save other resources. This is in addition to saved build points (see 13.6.8).

You can use saved oil resources either to reorganise units or as resources for production. Treat them exactly like printed oil resources.

You transport oil like any other resource (see 13.6.1) except that they may be transported to cities and ports that are not factories. Of course, it still has to get to a factory to be used for production.

Neutral major powers can only save one oil per turn (in addition to their previously saved oil).

If you gain control of a hex containing saved oil resources, they become yours.

Saved oil resources can be destroyed by strategic bombardment (see 11.7).


They are different optionals (see number) and AFAIK in WIF you can take an optional complete or partially if there is another optional within it that you dont want. Because saving oil seems to be subordinate.


< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 12/18/2020 5:17:51 PM >

(in reply to Courtenay)
Post #: 76
RE: Still a Pain - 12/18/2020 5:05:56 PM   
Centuur


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RAW:

Oil (AfA option 48)

and:

Saved oil resources (AfA option 31)

So yes, according to the rule book, they are two separate optional rules...

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Post #: 77
RE: Still a Pain - 12/18/2020 5:22:28 PM   
paulderynck


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I have come around to the view that saving oil basically ruins any chance for a successful U-boat offensive. So lately in CE games on Vassal we have been house ruling that saved oil cannot be used for production. The turn it arrives, you either produce with it or save it wherever you can legally do so. After that, saved oil can only be used to pay your oil costs. I think this improves the game.

This could easily be adapted to MWiF although for MWiF it's reasonable to allow arriving oil to be used to pay your oil costs, since this is a different mechanism in RAW7 versus CE. And in MWiF it would need to be player-enforced.

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Post #: 78
RE: Still a Pain - 12/18/2020 5:51:53 PM   
Joseignacio


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The conclussions can be different with different experiences. I use to play many times CW, I feel comfortable with it and love naval warfare, but my experience is opposite which, of course may depend on the optionals.

Very fez times the CW can keep its production at full, and even that at a steep price of escorts and convoys, for a cheap cost for the AXIS with units costing 1/1.

I have had to surrender after being several turns producing like 6 or 7 BP because I had so few convoys left, not having BPs even to replace the losses or repair the escorts. Of course the game was far from lost considerinf the other powers but USSR was weak and it had no future.

Needless to say I use to be very unfortunate in rolls (this is changing lately, touch wood!) which can be another decisive factor. I mean, after rolling an 8 ,9 or 0 and the enemy a 1 or 2 a couple of times in a row, you just cant believe this will repeat a third or even a fourth time but sh*t happens.

There was something that really pissed me as a GE player re convoys and it was that you needed to spend surprise to avoid air combat if there was a lousy ftr without naval factors in the 0 box but this finally was ruled out in other versions I believe.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 12/18/2020 5:54:20 PM >

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 79
RE: Still a Pain - 12/18/2020 6:04:45 PM   
paulderynck


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Air cover in the zero box has been reduced in effectiveness but not ruled out. The lower the range of the reacting aircraft, the lower the number of surprise points needed to call a sub combat. Of course this is untrue for MWiF as it uses RAW7 rules.

I have seen many games now where the CW goes all out to save oil in the UK and then even when the axis does have a good turn, the CW just calmly makes up the difference in lost resources by producing the saved oil (hence Post #78).

As far as getting your CPs creamed game after game with the CW, there are a lot of things the CW can do to protect the CPs. Get the air cover in place, always have escorts in the one, zero and 4 boxes at the end of the turn, keep a reserve of CPs and don't subscribe to the gambler's fallacy that a bad split on the first search is more unlikely for the second. There are times when aborting the sea zone is better - and then - come back in force.





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Post #: 80
RE: Still a Pain - 12/19/2020 12:25:01 AM   
Joseignacio


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From: Madrid, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Air cover in the zero box has been reduced in effectiveness but not ruled out. The lower the range of the reacting aircraft, the lower the number of surprise points needed to call a sub combat. Of course this is untrue for MWiF as it uses RAW7 rules.

I have seen many games now where the CW goes all out to save oil in the UK and then even when the axis does have a good turn, the CW just calmly makes up the difference in lost resources by producing the saved oil (hence Post #78).

As far as getting your CPs creamed game after game with the CW, there are a lot of things the CW can do to protect the CPs. Get the air cover in place, always have escorts in the one, zero and 4 boxes at the end of the turn, keep a reserve of CPs and don't subscribe to the gambler's fallacy that a bad split on the first search is more unlikely for the second. There are times when aborting the sea zone is better - and then - come back in force.



Thats all very good, but in the initial setup you dont have many extra convoys to bring oil for saving. If nothing wrong happens, you usually bring 1 max 2 oil to save, and when they blow like 10 or 15 convoys each turn and you need to withdraw the rest, many times without replacements (at all or for part of them) because of the previous losses, you simply cannot go on burning the 7 or 10 oil you have saved bringing 1 or 2 per turn minus the ones you need to burn because some conv were lost or aborted in turns not so bad. I have never had more than 4 or 5 oils saved in UK, and not because I didnt want.

The conv from other countries hardly mean a big difference in the long run, they just help to control losses.

The wolfpacks and the italian counterparts are deadly when parting from France or even Spain, cheap (1/1), so that you can afford to lose some in order to inflict damage, and more effective when they reach oceanic waters, far from nav's protection.

An example:

I just did CW deployment for Global War. I moved 16 resources, to UK, I was going to produce the 2 from uk, the 2 that i can use in indian factories, 2 more in canada adn 1 in australia. That makes 23 resources and 22 factories. I was going to save one more resource but the game didnt let me do so (IMO wrongly). I had like 10 or 12 surplua convoys, and the closer idle oil (or non ouil, it's the same) I could bring was from NEI or Burma, that would have meant like 7 or 8 conv if I brought them through the med (ehem, not good idea after the Italian join) leaving only like 4 for a reserve. Plus 1 from poland next turn.

This means I would bring 1 max 2 oil, in this case stretching my lines to the maximum and without reaction capability.

I had a good 3 attack, 5 movement 3 range german sub searching in Feroes that could have aborted several easily. There was bad weather and he tried to harm.

Later on I will get some belgian and maybe netherlands but not enough to mean a big change.

So I would get 1 or 2 resources, 3 max if I left almost no reserves when I got those ones but just aborting 1, 2, 3 conv would make me have to burn them. Or I could save them when the multiple is low, but that also means producing less when you can do more with a few more land or air units, isnt it?

If I finally can save some oil in CW (which sometimes is not even possible because of this) it is never too much, so if they sink or abort 10 conv of a line or even worse, several segments of 10 convoys (or the 16 like it happened to me that time, being able to replace only like 4) , with lots of GE and IT subs coming from France and reaching all the Atlantic, even at a (cheap) cost in subs, you can find yourself with minus 10 resources, several conv losses and several sunk or damaged scs if you are unlucky. You may be not even able to replace conv (4 turns as well) much less repair scs, so next turn you are even weaker and you are ripe for another razzia. Then production falls again and so on.


< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 12/19/2020 10:53:00 AM >

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 81
RE: Still a Pain - 12/19/2020 4:31:14 AM   
paulderynck


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That's MWiF and WiF for you, different people seem to have different experiences. That's why some optional rules are good for promoting play balance, I guess.


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