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China tactics - 11/22/2013 2:34:09 AM   
Dabrion


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In case there is another post I am not aware of please point me that way.

China here means the geographical China. So, what changed from the board game into MWiF in terms of useful setup constellations and tactics. This can be for Nat.CH/Com.CH as well as for Japan.

The European hex-scale means that the dense fronts from the board game change. But what should they change into? It it productive to stack key points or to fan out? Guarding rails will be a factor for Japan now.

Does anyone have some standard setups to share, or useful insights and facts about supply lines and the like. What are feasible avenues of approach for the Japs? How would you approach the setup from the 1998 Annual that everyone should have access to?
Post #: 1
RE: China tactics - 11/22/2013 2:45:53 AM   
Dr. Foo


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Being such a newbie I doubt I have any useful insight on deployment in China. However, I have noted that supply there is frustrating. I cannot figure out why, but Japaneses forces near the coast enjoy supply but if I move them inland and they will be out of supply, even in a city!

I'm not even talking about moving into Chinese territory, this is inside territory controlled by Japan.

I don't know if this is by design or a bug. My units are within 4 hexes of a city, I am not using any of the limit supply options, weather is fine and I use HQ supply.

It still does not matter.

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Post #: 2
RE: China tactics - 11/22/2013 2:46:44 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

In case there is another post I am not aware of please point me that way.

China here means the geographical China. So, what changed from the board game into MWiF in terms of useful setup constellations and tactics. This can be for Nat.CH/Com.CH as well as for Japan.

The European hex-scale means that the dense fronts from the board game change. But what should they change into? It it productive to stack key points or to fan out? Guarding rails will be a factor for Japan now.

Does anyone have some standard setups to share, or useful insights and facts about supply lines and the like. What are feasible avenues of approach for the Japs? How would you approach the setup from the 1998 Annual that everyone should have access to?

See The War Room. At the top is an index into Strategy Discussions. The links to China and Japan should give you a lot to read on your topic.

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Post #: 3
RE: China tactics - 11/22/2013 2:59:41 AM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo



I don't know if this is by design or a bug. My units are within 4 hexes of a city, I am not using any of the limit supply options, weather is fine and I use HQ supply.

It still does not matter.




They need to be within 4 hexes of a city in their home country, i.e Japan. So you can't really move inland unless you have a HQ to coordinate and use the railroad net.

< Message edited by Ur_Vile_WEdge -- 11/22/2013 4:00:28 AM >

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Post #: 4
RE: China tactics - 11/22/2013 5:28:26 AM   
abulbulian


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Correct, only cities in Japan proper are considered primary level supply sources. Thus, Japanese units in China tracing supply need legal chain traced back to these primary supply sources. Watch tutorial video #5 as it does a great job explaining supply as it's a little complicated. The tutorial videos were very well done and well worth the time. Besides some sirens in the background (surfer accidents?) and a reference to Switzerland as Sweden they're flawless

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 11/22/2013 6:31:12 AM >


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Post #: 5
RE: China tactics - 11/22/2013 7:18:26 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Correct, only cities in Japan proper are considered primary level supply sources. Thus, Japanese units in China tracing supply need legal chain traced back to these primary supply sources. Watch tutorial video #5 as it does a great job explaining supply as it's a little complicated. The tutorial videos were very well done and well worth the time. Besides some sirens in the background (surfer accidents?) and a reference to Switzerland as Sweden they're flawless

Thanks. Tutorial #9 covers supply too. It is too difficult to explain this in a sentence or two. I gave it my best shot in those tutorials.

Hark! a siren in the distance ... they're coming to take to me away, ha ha hee hee.

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Post #: 6
RE: China tactics - 11/22/2013 7:31:26 AM   
abulbulian


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I was kind, didn't make reference to the anti-tank unit as an anti-aircraft unit..


Once again kudos to all the amazing documentation for this game. I'm sure WiF will be a grandiose success with all the effort involved before and after the initial release.

_____________________________

- Beta Tester WitE and ATG
- Alpha Tester WitW and WitE2

"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack." - Sun Tzu

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Post #: 7
RE: China tactics - 11/22/2013 3:37:14 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

I was kind, didn't make reference to the anti-tank unit as an anti-aircraft unit..


Once again kudos to all the amazing documentation for this game. I'm sure WiF will be a grandiose success with all the effort involved before and after the initial release.

There is also a resource that changed its destination mid-sentence.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to abulbulian)
Post #: 8
RE: China tactics - 11/22/2013 3:41:28 PM   
Dr. Foo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Besides some sirens in the background (surfer accidents?) and a reference to Switzerland as Sweden they're flawless


Before I knew Steve lived three blocks from me, I was watching the videos and heard the sirens and thought, gee those sirens sound just like the ones I hear everyday...same pitch, same echo. Sounds like they're right outside my building. Turns out, they were!


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Do not accept or follow any medical advice*

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Post #: 9
RE: China tactics - 11/23/2013 9:15:27 AM   
delatbabel


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Back to China.

The new map is going to have a huge impact. I am yet to play a game of MWiF so I really don't know what that impact is going to be. I suspect that it will favour the Japanese because they can put more units on the ground than China can.

In WiFFE the Chinese player usually gets to play along as best as they can against the Japanese strategy, trying to hold the mountain terrain, until the USA enters the war. At that stage the Japanese player will usually need to start pulling units out of China to man their home country and their new found Pacific dependencies. The Chinese player at that stage can usually make a few inroads into recapturing terrain lost during the rest of the war, especially in the north where the Communists generally have stronger units and a better leader.

If you play with the "Chinese Nationalist Attack Weakness" option, it becomes much harder. China will usually be pushed well back to the last few factories, and quite often conquered (in the 7 games I have seen played with that option, China was conquered 3 times). In the face of the changed map and my past experiences I would strongly recommend playing without this option -- nobody I have ever played with has ever used this option and for good reason because it tends to lead to very ahistorical outcomes.

As the war progresses, it's common for the Chinese to run out of units to build, other than air units and naval units, unless they get especially punished by the Japanese. However there are a number of nice aircraft that the nationalist Chinese can build, especially if they have their pool built up by lend lease from the USA (which is not a bad strategy, because it means that these aircraft can be built directly in the face of the Japanese, rather than having to be shipped from half way around the world). This usually means that the Chinese can consider an air action each turn from about mid 1942 onwards to increase the number of ground strikes that are possible against the Japanese.

Above all be aware that the Chinese cannot win the war against Japan. It is up to the Chinese to be enough of a pest, however, to make the USA's job of winning the war against Japan much easier. So once China moves to a limited offensive position against Japan, consider the sort of targets that are going to make the USA's job easier. For example, if those air actions are used to (successfully) ground strike Japanese marine units within range of the Chinese bombers, or even ground strike an unprotected Japanese NAV bomber, all the better. Don't focus entirely on the objectives that will help China, also consider the objectives that will help the USA.

(as an aside -- there is a change to the rules in v.8 of the WiFFE rules, not implemented in MWiF, where (a) the nationalist chinese attack weakness is no longer an optional rule, it is a mandatory part of the game and (b) a very nasty rule where if either faction of the Chinese, nationalist or communist, run out of cities then all of their units are *scrapped*, not *removed from the game*. Scrapped units can't ever re-enter the game even if their country is later liberated, and so if China is conquered and then liberated it doesn't ever get any units back. It is therefore essential, if somewhat difficult, for the Allied players to do everything possible to ensure that China isn't conquered. This is one of the primary reasons I have stopped using version 8 of the rules and reverted to version 7).


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Post #: 10
RE: China tactics - 11/23/2013 3:49:34 PM   
Numdydar

 

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From a historical perpective the scrapping of units makes a lot of sense. In game terms no one is going to waste the time and effort to liberate the Chinese. After Pearl Harbor, the US was planning to have China as their main base of operations. Which is why Stidwell got sent there (poor guy). He quickly found out that it would be impossible. Not because of getiing equipmet to China, but because of the political nature of the Chinese at the time.

So if China was overrun, the Chinese were fully aware that no one was going to help liberate them. Plus they had already had been fighting for over 4 years before PH. So in game terms this change provides both sides with incentive to keep the pressure on.

Of course, if you want a historical China in the game, then they should provide an optional rule like in War in the Pacific AE where there is a 'Quiet China' option. This means there are no units in or out of China for Japan from the Dec 1941 start and everyone just sits in place from that point on. So once the US enters the war, the lines in China are fixed and China just does a Pass option until the end of the war.

Of course never having played WiF at all until now, especially a Global War scenerio , any suggestions I make here should be taken with a ship load of salt

(in reply to delatbabel)
Post #: 11
RE: China tactics - 11/23/2013 5:01:52 PM   
Dabrion


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Thanks Del. I know my share about the general game in China. I wanted to have this thread about the specifics and changes that come with the MWiF map. I also used the word tactics to reflect that I am more interested in small scale tips how to archive things that looked very different on the boardgame map. The AI summaries outline only strategic goals. I dont think they will change, but the new map changes the tactics to archive the them.

I feel China has now some flair of the German France-40. The additional space gives room for the Nat.Ch to outflank and retake a port or two. I think Japan will need a higher BP total to archive similar results on this map. Because of increased garrisons demands and the opportunity to actually bring three to four fully stacked hexes to bear in attacks.


Where did you get RAW8? Did they get rid of that awful FAQ finally? Is the revised attack weakness from the 2008 Annual the mandatory rule you talk about?


Scrapping ALL units sounds weird!

< Message edited by Dabrion -- 11/23/2013 6:10:40 PM >

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Post #: 12
RE: China tactics - 11/23/2013 9:30:54 PM   
delatbabel


Posts: 1250
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From: Sydney, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dabrion
Thanks Del. I know my share about the general game in China. I wanted to have this thread about the specifics and changes that come with the MWiF map. I also used the word tactics to reflect that I am more interested in small scale tips how to archive things that looked very different on the boardgame map. The AI summaries outline only strategic goals. I dont think they will change, but the new map changes the tactics to archive the them.

I feel China has now some flair of the German France-40. The additional space gives room for the Nat.Ch to outflank and retake a port or two. I think Japan will need a higher BP total to archive similar results on this map. Because of increased garrisons demands and the opportunity to actually bring three to four fully stacked hexes to bear in attacks.

Where did you get RAW8? Did they get rid of that awful FAQ finally? Is the revised attack weakness from the 2008 Annual the mandatory rule you talk about?


I don't really think that anyone knows how tactics in China are going to work on the new MWiF map. It's going to take a few games between experienced players to sort that out, and maybe then it will require some changes and tweaks to the rules (and possibly even the counter mix) to figure out. It was always a fine balance between Japan and China in WiFFE and things could go either way. So I think you could possibly be right in terms of tactics, I really don't know and I don't think that anyone knows.

RAW8 is the current rule set being worked on by Harry and is being handed out by him at all WiFCons for use at WiFCon. It's gone through a number of revisions in the last couple of years, the jury is still out as to whether all of them are good or not.


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