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RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse

 
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RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/5/2013 9:30:09 AM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Turn: Jul/Aug 1942
Impulse: 9

Almost the end of the turn and the Kriegsmarine are ordered to sea to see what they can achieve. All units except the two WW1 vintage ships have been ordered to sortie!

The RAF and FAA send out fighters and Swordfish to intercept, but its the Germans that get the surprise. They choose to pick on the CW convoy.

The convoy is destroyed and the fleet returns triumphantly to base.





I suppose Germany had fun but it was a lot of oil spend for a mission with little to gain. A smaller dedicated task force should have been able to get the same result with less oil cost and a lower profile might often be better as well.

_____________________________

Intend attacking at dawn high water.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 721
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/5/2013 11:26:57 AM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Turn: Jul/Aug 1942
Impulse: End of Turn

The turn ends and Partisans rear their head - two in the Soviet Union and one in Malaya.

The Soviet Partisans are placed behind the German Army Group South - as if they didn't have enough problems!






Are all hexes in Bessarabia Axis controlled? If so, than it shouldn't be possible for the partisan to be placed in Cernauti, since a partisan can only be placed in his own home country (and Bessarabia is Rumania if all hexes are Axis controlled). It looks like a bug to me...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 722
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/5/2013 4:25:25 PM   
Walker84


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So the Japs continue to kick ass in China. Wait a minute, the game is now into Jul/Aul '42. What has happened to US entry - and what plans are the sons of Nippon hatching to rid the Greater Asian Co-Prosperity sphere of Imperialist lackey forces in the region?

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 723
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/5/2013 10:28:36 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Walker84

So the Japs continue to kick ass in China. Wait a minute, the game is now into Jul/Aul '42. What has happened to US entry - and what plans are the sons of Nippon hatching to rid the Greater Asian Co-Prosperity sphere of Imperialist lackey forces in the region?
warspite1

I'll summarise on Saturday where I am and what in the name of Bonaparte's balls is going on...


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Walker84)
Post #: 724
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/6/2013 12:19:25 AM   
Mynok


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Bonapartes balls? I thought Wellington had those in a jar somewhere.

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Post #: 725
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/6/2013 6:49:57 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Bonapartes balls? I thought Wellington had those in a jar somewhere.
warspite1

Quite....


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 726
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/6/2013 6:32:44 PM   
warspite1


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So where the hell is this game at and where on earth is it going?

First off a realisation:

Having played 20 years ago under 5th Edition rules I assumed that I could handle a Global War game with all the optionals, without reference to the rule book (I figured I would just pick it up as I went along).

There are three factors that I think come together to ensure that was a mistaken belief and that, as a result, there is a lot to be desired in terms of the quality of the AAR and it being representative of a proper game.

1. Playing solitaire, whilst a fun way of learning the rules, is actually quite difficult because I am missing the competitive edge I would get from playing a human opponent or challenging AI. As a result I have missed countless moves, rebases, attacks and even chosen the wrong action type – whereas in a competitive game I would be scanning every inch of the map every impulse to see what else I could do, where else I could attack or what else needs re-basing etc.

2. The rules have changed much more than I thought and playing with all the optionals makes the learning curve even steeper. US Entry should have been handled better, I still have no real idea how close the US are to being able to declare war on Japan. Entry is high, but last turn I got a message that the US had a 10% chance of successfully declaring war. I have also made a total Horlicks of the supply rules – especially in China, meaning that getting units into position to launch sensible attacks has been er..sub optimal to put it kindly.

3. There are clearly some issues with the production planning/trade agreement/oil rules (in terms of MWIF treatment) that make learning these features even more challenging. Consequently the Italians have been left without oil for many turns as I cannot get oil to the country each turn. When I try a trade agreement from Germany, the German production goes haywire…

Anyway so where does that leave things? Well I am going to carry on but will slow the pace down a tad so that I have time to think more about things. Clearly I need to get the USA into the war. I need to get Germany moving in the USSR, and I need to get Italy shored about against imminent CW invasion (assuming the CW ever get their amphs). For that they need oil!!

I will try and explain what is going on each phase more too with a view to inviting more comment and advice from others hopefully.

Any way here goes….


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 727
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/6/2013 7:24:49 PM   
Walker84


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Understood, in any case I'm sure you will have gained many valuable insights from this initial tour of duty, even if you might wish that some things had been done differently in hindsight.

Meanwhile, my hardware issues have been fixed and I'm going to start downloading tonight. I have about two weeks leave coming up over the festive season, so no prizes for guessing what the focus will be when I'm not entertaining the inlaws, or peeling Brussel sprouts .

_____________________________

The most advanced nations are always those who navigate the most -
Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803 -1882)

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Post #: 728
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/6/2013 7:30:50 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Walker84

Understood, in any case I'm sure you will have gained many valuable insights from this initial tour of duty, even if you might wish that some things had been done differently in hindsight.

Meanwhile, my hardware issues have been fixed and I'm going to start downloading tonight. I have about two weeks leave coming up over the festive season, so no prizes for guessing what the focus will be when I'm not entertaining the inlaws, or peeling Brussel sprouts .
warspite1

Lucky devil...

By the way, did you know that you have the second best looking avatar on the forum behind mine, FACT - and I'm not even biased toward our senior service


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Walker84)
Post #: 729
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/6/2013 8:06:51 PM   
Walker84


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Thanks, much appreciated and reciprocated. It is a most pleasing silhouette to be sure, superimposed on a very regal shade of blue.

And of course, we have centuries of fine naval tradition to uphold. What was that quotation often misattributed to W.S. Churchill?: "Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy, and the lash."

_____________________________

The most advanced nations are always those who navigate the most -
Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803 -1882)

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Post #: 730
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/6/2013 8:17:54 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

By the way, did you know that you have the second best looking avatar on the forum behind mine, FACT - and I'm not even biased toward our senior service


If you are not nice then you will not be invited to our weekly 100 miles cross country ski tour in the future.

_____________________________

Intend attacking at dawn high water.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 731
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/6/2013 8:19:58 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Turn: Jul/Aug 1942
Impulse: End of Turn

The turn ends and Partisans rear their head - two in the Soviet Union and one in Malaya.

The Soviet Partisans are placed behind the German Army Group South - as if they didn't have enough problems!






Are all hexes in Bessarabia Axis controlled? If so, than it shouldn't be possible for the partisan to be placed in Cernauti, since a partisan can only be placed in his own home country (and Bessarabia is Rumania if all hexes are Axis controlled). It looks like a bug to me...

My bet is that Axis has not yet captured the minor port hex (Cutatea-Alba) in Bessarabia.

_____________________________

Intend attacking at dawn high water.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 732
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/6/2013 8:21:42 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

By the way, did you know that you have the second best looking avatar on the forum behind mine, FACT - and I'm not even biased toward our senior service


If you are not nice then you will not be invited to our weekly 100 miles cross country ski tour in the future.
warspite1

Yours is definitely the bestest ski division avatar Orm


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 733
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/6/2013 8:24:27 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 40243
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Turn: Jul/Aug 1942
Impulse: 9

Almost the end of the turn and the Kriegsmarine are ordered to sea to see what they can achieve. All units except the two WW1 vintage ships have been ordered to sortie!

The RAF and FAA send out fighters and Swordfish to intercept, but its the Germans that get the surprise. They choose to pick on the CW convoy.

The convoy is destroyed and the fleet returns triumphantly to base.





I suppose Germany had fun but it was a lot of oil spend for a mission with little to gain. A smaller dedicated task force should have been able to get the same result with less oil cost and a lower profile might often be better as well.
warspite1

As I've just found out . I suspect I will dispense with the oil rule next game - its just detracting from the fun element too much....


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 734
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/6/2013 8:25:33 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 40243
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Turn: Jul/Aug 1942
Impulse: End of Turn

The turn ends and Partisans rear their head - two in the Soviet Union and one in Malaya.

The Soviet Partisans are placed behind the German Army Group South - as if they didn't have enough problems!






Are all hexes in Bessarabia Axis controlled? If so, than it shouldn't be possible for the partisan to be placed in Cernauti, since a partisan can only be placed in his own home country (and Bessarabia is Rumania if all hexes are Axis controlled). It looks like a bug to me...

My bet is that Axis has not yet captured the minor port hex (Cutatea-Alba) in Bessarabia.
warspite1

Is the correct answer! I have not yet taken the port with the Germans. Good spot sir.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 735
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/6/2013 8:30:52 PM   
Orm


Posts: 17793
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

By the way, did you know that you have the second best looking avatar on the forum behind mine, FACT - and I'm not even biased toward our senior service


If you are not nice then you will not be invited to our weekly 100 miles cross country ski tour in the future.
warspite1

Yours is definitely the bestest ski division avatar Orm




_____________________________

Intend attacking at dawn high water.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 736
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/6/2013 10:32:33 PM   
brian brian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


As I've just found out . I suspect I will dispense with the oil rule next game - its just detracting from the fun element too much....



oh yes, not needing oil to fight the most mechanized war in history makes for an awesome fantasy role-playing adventure, with dice and colorful chits and everything

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 737
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/7/2013 12:45:09 AM   
Zorachus99


Posts: 1054
Joined: 9/15/2000
From: Palo Alto, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Turn: Jul/Aug 1942
Impulse: 9

Almost the end of the turn and the Kriegsmarine are ordered to sea to see what they can achieve. All units except the two WW1 vintage ships have been ordered to sortie!

The RAF and FAA send out fighters and Swordfish to intercept, but its the Germans that get the surprise. They choose to pick on the CW convoy.

The convoy is destroyed and the fleet returns triumphantly to base.





I suppose Germany had fun but it was a lot of oil spend for a mission with little to gain. A smaller dedicated task force should have been able to get the same result with less oil cost and a lower profile might often be better as well.
warspite1

As I've just found out . I suspect I will dispense with the oil rule next game - its just detracting from the fun element too much....



My theory is that the old lady pretended to not ever need oil. After all isn't 5000 nautical miles forever?

The oil rule, is pretty pro-allied, but relatively realistic on the gameplay effect, particularly in the late war.

I've made moves like this, or worse, failed to find anything and wasted tons of oil. It took time before I would automatically wonder if I sent too much. Nowadays I reference the surface combat and AA table before putting to sea more often than not, just to optimize my ship profile.

A rule of thumb in WIF is that more ships nearly always increases attrition due to how the combat tables work.

Duking it out with your entire navy in one spot can really perilous due to this one fact. Efficient use of units seems to pay off in the long run too. Particularly with Japan.

Love your AAR, looking forward to the US getting busy.

_____________________________

Most men can survive adversity, the true test of a man's character is power. -Abraham Lincoln

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Post #: 738
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/7/2013 1:35:48 AM   
brian brian

 

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ahh, missed your state-of-the-game update. if you haven't been able to get saved oil and trading oil working in Europe, there are some upsides.

upside - you thus probably have more units on the board now. downside - more units need more oil to operate

upside - your units didn't attempt as much combat....didn't take as many casualties....now you have even more units

in short, you effectively played conservatively in some areas of the game, and that has it's advantages.


it is also not completely wrong to look at WWII as a long series of blunders on all sides. today we are looking at the war of course with the advantages of hindsight. so diving in to this game and just playing it might actually get you closer to how the historical commanders experienced it.

Did the Royal Navy completely understand the full implications of Japanese naval bombers basing in southern Indo-China, and just how long of a range they had? No.

Did Hitler understand that just because he now had Panthers and Tigers, he could no longer pick the Blitz table at Kursk because the Russians now had more tank formations than he did? No.

Did anyone aside from the Japanese Imperial staffs know how the USA was going to ever enter the war? No.

so there is a good chance your AAR is the most realistic of all.

(in reply to Zorachus99)
Post #: 739
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/7/2013 2:25:55 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


As I've just found out . I suspect I will dispense with the oil rule next game - its just detracting from the fun element too much....



oh yes, not needing oil to fight the most mechanized war in history makes for an awesome fantasy role-playing adventure, with dice and colorful chits and everything
warspite1

Seriously?? I played perfectly happily without oil for years - because ADG hadn't thought of it.

As I mentioned previously in this AAR, I do not want to dispense with oil because of the added realism. But, either because of bugs or because I am too stupid to understand what to do exactly (I suspect there is elements of both in play) I am in a situation where Italy - in its first year of war - has no oil such that the RM and RA have been docked/grounded for lack of fuel. That situation (if you look at what happened historically) is as much a fantasy that you refer to, as having unlimited oil.

Edit: Spelling


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/7/2013 5:58:28 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 740
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/7/2013 3:06:53 AM   
brian brian

 

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that's true, oil crept into the game slowly before Final Edition came out, and I played a long time without it as well. but treating Ploesti as the same as the Saar/Metz ... I just can't go back to ignoring that. why would Japan have even launched a war at all if it didn't need oil? sure, the game is a bit easier to play without thinking about oil, no question.

and the historical Italian navy really was stuck in port for most of the war due to a severe oil shortage, ditto the IJN stuck in Borneo. if anything, the oil rule still gives the Axis too many operational abilities in this regard, to make more of a game of it.

and I think ultimately, playing without an oil rule helps bog down the game actually, as more and more units appear on the map and the game gets slower and slower to play each passing year.

just during 1941 Barbarossa, no oil requirement for the Germans might give them 25 more build points in 1941 alone, with perhaps 20 additional, or more, from 39 & 40 together. meanwhile Russia would have about the same amounts of forces, and they are already extremely fragile in 1941. Germany could well launch a no-oil Barbarossa with the same amount of units, but 2 more Offensive Chits in hand...and what are Offensive Chits but a lot of fuel (and ammunition and replacements, yes, but a whole lot of fuel). (O-Chits are a bit of a secret way to get oil without actually having it, by the way).

the oil rule is a huge game changer, and thus my comment.

so I am enjoying your AAR immensely, in a tiny part because of the oil snafus, but mostly because you are so generous to share this all with us.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 741
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/7/2013 3:35:37 AM   
warspite1


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Turn: Sep/Oct 1942
Impulse: 1

The Allies win the initiative - despite the Axis calling a re-roll - whoops...

One of the things I find quite difficult with this game is the carrier air units - specifically maximising the best aircraft for the best carriers etc.

If I am going to take on the Italians next year when my AMPH's arrive then I need the best carrier planes on deck. I have a seafire just built and is waiting in Bristol. Unfortunately there is no carrier that can take this "Blue 4" quality unit at present. But next year my "green" carriers can accomodate this unit. I need to get these ships in position to be able to take the aircraft aboard. HMS Indefatigable is in Gibraltar so she looks like a likely candidate, with the Albacore currently aboard her, moving to HMS Formidable. Formidable's 3-quality Gladiator can then be scrapped.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/7/2013 4:37:45 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 742
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/7/2013 3:45:34 AM   
warspite1


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From: England
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Turn: Sep/Oct 1942
Impulse: 1

So with intelligence telling me that there is no danger from the Regia Marina this turn, I use this knowledge to shuffle the fleet. All carriers head back to Blighty for FAA upgrades.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 743
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/7/2013 3:52:37 AM   
warspite1


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Turn: Sep/Oct 1942
Impulse: 1

In China, the Chinese decide to get angry with the exposed Japanese Mountain unit southwest of Kweilin. The Japanese respond with their long-range zero, and the Chinese bring in two fighters. They are at a disadvantage, but the thinking here is that the Chinese can afford the losses - and if they do manage to hurt the Japanese, then so much the better.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 744
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/7/2013 4:01:29 AM   
warspite1


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Turn: Sep/Oct 1942
Impulse: 1

Round 1

The Japanese roll an 18 (AX PX) meaning they can choose to destroy the Chinese front fighter or bomber (the pilot was killed). They choose the fighter, hoping that the Chinese will stick around.

The Chinese roll a 13 (AC) clearing an enemy bomber through. There are none so this is no effect.

Round 2

The Chinese decide to tough it out and stick around. The Japanese roll a 7 (AA). The Japanese can decide which of the remaining aircraft to abort - they choose the fighter.

The Chinese boldness then pays off!! They throw a 2 (AX). The pilot survives but the Japanese lose their 13-range Zero - incredible!!

The bomber subsequently fails to disorganise the Japanese Mountain Corps but who cares? That is definitely a major success for the Chinese.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/7/2013 5:03:23 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 745
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/7/2013 4:19:19 AM   
warspite1


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Turn: Sep/Oct 1942
Impulse: 2

The Germans need to tidy up behind the lines by getting rid of the partisans. Meanwhile I seem to have put my aircraft and transports out of supply in Truk.... I have no spare convoy counters to rectify this turn either. Note to self - do not play with limited overseas supply...

The Germans go for three ground strikes. The forest hex southeast of Riga, the hex northwest of Nikolayev and (having noticed some Soviet units out of supply) the forest hex southeast of Minsk. Knowing they have the aircraft advantage, the Soviets pour their air force into the defence of their southern units.

Meanwhile the Japanese try a ground strike on two Chinese armies between Nanning and Kweilin.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/7/2013 5:28:53 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 746
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/7/2013 4:31:51 AM   
warspite1


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Turn: Sep/Oct 1942
Impulse: 2

And so the stage is set for potentially the biggest air battle of the war so far!




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 747
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/7/2013 4:47:31 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 40243
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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Turn: Sep/Oct 1942
Impulse: 2

Round 1

The Allies throw a 15 (AA). The Soviets can choose which front aircraft to abort. Learning from what happened with the Chinese, they gamble and abort the Luftwaffe's front fighter..

Its laugh or cry time (again) - the Germans throw a 13 (No Effect)...

Round 2

The Soviets now have the slight advantage 7.1 vs 7.3. The Germans figure that as the war progresses so those odds will keep getting worse - they fight on!!

The Soviets stay of course, and roll a 6 (AA). Once again the Soviets choose the German fighter to abort.

The Germans roll an 8 (DA). The defender gets the choice of aircraft to abort but there is only the front fighter to choose.

Round 3

With the Soviets only having a 5-quality in front, this swings the advantage back to the Luftwaffe 6.5 vs 5.8. For the same reasons as before however, the Soviets choose to stick around.

What a choice! They roll a 3 (DX). The Germans choose whether to lose their front fighter or bomber (the pilot survives). They choose to lose the fighter.

The Germans roll a 9 - No effect. This series of dice rolls from the Germans is really quite bizarre..

Round 4

Well no point backing out now - even though the Soviets have the 5 vs 5.8 advantage..

The Soviets roll a 12 (AC) - the Stuka is cleared through.

Now - one decent dice and the Germans can at least even up the losses...

...but they throw a 13 - No effect





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 748
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/7/2013 4:55:00 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 40243
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
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Turn: Sep/Oct 1942
Impulse: 2

The Germans lose a precious FW190 but at least the Stuka attack succeeded in disorganising one Soviet unit.

In the north, the Stuka manages to ground strike Yeremenko. Now all they need is a decent dice throw for the land attack....

North of the Pripet Marshes one of three ground strikes is successful. With the units out of supply, the Germans really could have done with more than that. But...

In China one Chinese army is also disorganised.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/7/2013 6:39:10 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 749
RE: Bob Flemin's MWIF AARse - 12/7/2013 5:16:16 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 40243
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
Turn: Sep/Oct 1942
Impulse: 2

There will be the following attacks for the Germans this turn:

Attack on the Partisan in France

Attack on the Soviets north of Nikolayev

Attack on the Soviets south of Minsk

Attack on the forest hex south of Riga

Its all or nothing for the Germans in the east....

Manstein and Rommel use HQ support to their two attacks in the centre and north respectively, while Koniev provides support in the south. Maddeningly I have just realised that Guderian was not organised due to lack of oil last turn ....

The Soviets are able to bring in bomber support in the south - the attack there is going to be a disaster....


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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