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Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/2/2013 9:00:35 AM   
acbennett3


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I have updated my 53 Kola scenario to 1956 forces. This is right before AAM and SAMs were introduced and the primary units are the B-47E and Mig-17PF Fresco D. The B-47's are faster, can operate at both low (to evade radar) and high altitude (to evade thermo-nuclear blasts), and have the first Offensive ECM for confusing the enemy. Also they are now carrying higher yield hydrogen/thermo-nuclear bombs (x4 Mark-21 5mT each for this scenario) so manual hi speed/hi altitude egress is required for survival. Auto Winchester RTB is OFF for the US to support this. The Mig-17PF is faster and carrys a powerful radar for all weather interception - but will have a harder time w/the faster B-47's. To simulate SAC Doctrine of the time there are no US escort fighters anymore…

Currently this scenario can only be played as the US - too many options to successfully automate yet. Many decisions as the US:

1. Launching from RAF Greenham Common. Routes to use for attack - a stream or spread across the border simultaneously. Denmark/Germany is assumed to be embroiled in the Soviet invasion so please only fly north of Denmark over Norway/Sweden/Finland.

2. Altitude for attack - High all the way or low initially to evade radar and then pop up for bomb delivery. Not sure how to simulate this crazy maneuver though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqIJL8lx00o

3. Auto bombing w/all 4 bombs or manual w/1-2 bombs.

4. Where to send the tankers and when to refuel.

Finally I set the weather to heavy clouds and rain this time. Not sure of the balance so please post results - and any problems or recommendations.

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< Message edited by acb3 -- 11/2/2013 9:09:51 AM >


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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/2/2013 4:43:23 PM   
MR_BURNS2


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Wow i didn't know that those huge B-47 tried LABS.

The Bombs you loaded have retarded munition under properties, it should be possible to drop them low level, but not too low.

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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/2/2013 9:40:07 PM   
acbennett3


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quote:

Wow i didn't know that those huge B-47 tried LABS.


After some B-47 wings fell off due to the stress the maneuver caused they stopped doing it.

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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/2/2013 11:35:04 PM   
acbennett3


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quote:

The Bombs you loaded have retarded munition under properties, it should be possible to drop them low level, but not too low.


I did some testing with different bombs carried by the 47 during this time period per the db.
Mark 15 strat bomb - 15mT - could not get away from this bomb at all
Mark 36 strat bomb - 10mT - drop 1 bomb can get away, drop 2 no joy
Mark 21 strat bomb - 5mT - can drop the entire load of 4 and get away

All of the above testing was done at max alt/36k ft. Going to do more testing at lower altitudes with the 21 and combinations of 1/2/4 bombs dropped.

Note to ..Sirius - the mark 15 in the db is listed at 15mT but my research on the web listed it's yields as 1.7-3.8 mT?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_weapons


< Message edited by acb3 -- 11/3/2013 12:12:51 AM >


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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/3/2013 8:05:39 AM   
.Sirius


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Hi thanks will amend nuke yield on said nuke
quote:

ORIGINAL: acb3

quote:

The Bombs you loaded have retarded munition under properties, it should be possible to drop them low level, but not too low.


I did some testing with different bombs carried by the 47 during this time period per the db.
Mark 15 strat bomb - 15mT - could not get away from this bomb at all
Mark 36 strat bomb - 10mT - drop 1 bomb can get away, drop 2 no joy
Mark 21 strat bomb - 5mT - can drop the entire load of 4 and get away

All of the above testing was done at max alt/36k ft. Going to do more testing at lower altitudes with the 21 and combinations of 1/2/4 bombs dropped.

Note to ..Sirius - the mark 15 in the db is listed at 15mT but my research on the web listed it's yields as 1.7-3.8 mT?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_weapons



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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/3/2013 5:14:03 PM   
Barny23


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Hi acb3
Nice scenario.
I have just blown my B47's to pieces . they can only manage 36000ft cruising altitude:
killed by nuclear blast.
Their cruising speed of 350kts is to low and with a fuel load of just over 19000 us gal it don't need to slow down
Cruising speed of 484kts i my books and service ceiling of 40500ft
Barny

< Message edited by Barny -- 11/3/2013 5:22:52 PM >

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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/4/2013 6:38:22 AM   
.Sirius


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Will update and amend
quote:

ORIGINAL: Barny

Hi acb3
Nice scenario.
I have just blown my B47's to pieces . they can only manage 36000ft cruising altitude:
killed by nuclear blast.
Their cruising speed of 350kts is to low and with a fuel load of just over 19000 us gal it don't need to slow down
Cruising speed of 484kts i my books and service ceiling of 40500ft
Barny


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Old radar men never die - Their echoes fade away in accordance with the inverse fourth power law

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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/4/2013 7:09:09 AM   
acbennett3


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Thanks for the input Barny.

When I did my testing immediately after I saw the bombs leave the B-47 I manually turned away hard and attempted to fly directly away from the target at the highest speed and altitude possible. Per my results I escaped some of the blasts.

If RTB Winchester is on the B-47 picks a course back to its base (instead of directly away from the target) and slows to cruise speed and altitude - not good...

Still haven't tried lower altitude testing w/the Mk21 and 1/2 bomb combinations.

Just curious - how successful were the Mig-17's intercepting the B-47's before they reached their targets?



< Message edited by acb3 -- 11/4/2013 7:12:30 AM >


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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/4/2013 12:04:41 PM   
Barny23


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Hi acb3
When i observed the performance of the B47 i went for a flank attack
from Wikipidia:

Main article: US aerial reconnaissance of the USSR
The only B-47s to see anything that resembled combat were the aerial reconnaissance variants. The first overflight of Soviet territory with an RB-47 took place on 15 October 1952, when an RB-47B flying out of Alaska overflew Soviet airfields in Eastern Siberia.[citation needed] RB-47s operated from almost every airfield that gave them access to the USSR, and they often probed Soviet airspace, and on occasion, their pilots were caught in situations from which mostly speed and evasion in retreat saved them. At least five of these aircraft were fired on, and three of these were shot down. The RB-47s fired back with their tail turrets, although it is uncertain if they scored any kills. Nonetheless, these were the only shots fired in anger by any B-47.

On 8 May 1954, after a top secret reconnaissance mission in the Kola Peninsula, a 4th Air Division 91 Strategic Reconnaissance Wing RB-47E reconnaissance aircraft, with Hal Austin at the controls, flew west from the Soviet Union. The RB-47E was flying at high altitude, out of reach of MiG-15s, but unknown to USAF intelligence some MiG-17s had been stationed in the area that were able to intercept the intruder. The RB-47E was chased by three Soviet MiG-17 fighters attempting to destroy the aircraft with their guns over Soviet and Finnish airspace. Although sustaining damage, the RB-47E managed to escape over Sweden back to its home base at RAF Fairford, Gloucestershire. Its top speed and combat radius superiority to the Soviet fighter jets were the deciding factors. The mission marked the first time a jet aircraft equipped with modern photography equipment was used for American military reconnaissance. The incident was kept secret by all parties.

Other interceptions resulted in losses. An RB-47 flying out of Alaska was scouting out the Kamchatka Peninsula on 17 April 1955, when it was bounced by Soviet MiG-15s in international airspace. The RB-47 and its crew disappeared. Between 21 March and 10 May 1956, 16 RB-47Es and five RB-47Hs operating from Thule performed overflights the length of Siberia 156 times under Project HOMERUN. The Soviets filed an angry complaint with the U.S. government, which attributed the overflights to "navigational difficulties". MiGs bounced RB-47s on three separate occasions in the fall of 1958: over the Black Sea on 31 October, over the Baltic on 7 November, and over the Sea of Japan on 17 November.

On 1 July 1960, a PVO Strany MiG-19 shot down an RB-47H (AF Serial No. 53-4281) reconnaissance aircraft in the international airspace over the Barents Sea with four of the crew being killed and two captured by the Soviets, but released in 1961. The co-pilot reported that the MiG-19 jammed ("whited-out") his MD-4 FCS scope, rendering the RB-47H defenseless.[citation needed] The last known confrontation between MiGs and RB-47s took place on 27 April 1965, when an ERB-47H was jumped by North Korean MiG-17s over the Sea of Japan. The MiGs scored hits on the aircraft, but the ERB-47H managed to make it back to Yokota Air Base in Japan with two engines out.
Barny



< Message edited by Barny -- 11/4/2013 12:05:15 PM >

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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/4/2013 12:42:36 PM   
Barny23


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Hi acb3
Keep a straight line over targer at max.speed don't turn - you might outrun the blast.
When the fireball stops expanding chance course and rtb.
Barny

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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/5/2013 4:51:58 PM   
MR_BURNS2


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Yeah it does need a lot of micromanagement, but it works.Would be nice if they would do automatic blast evasion maneuvers, but thats surely hard to implement.

I found a little problem there, not that it would matter in the endgame.
All the Migs apparently divert to Fedotovo way south of the theater after their bases got destroyed.
I think it works like this: the next base used as Diversionary Base is by default the last one u added on the map, if you want them to use other closer bases, delete those and make new bases in the editor.
It doesn't make a difference however, by the time they are turned around my bombers will already be on their way back home. Unfortunately some of my tankers shared too much fuel and didn't make it home.


Btw. what is the payload of the B-47? Wiki says 25000lb, yet she carries 4 15000lb Mark-21 bombs???
We should look up specific B-47 loadout data for the DB.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/5/2013 5:46:28 PM   
MR_BURNS2


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My 5 MT bomb missed the target by 500m, so what? That happened a few times, they should still detonate.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/5/2013 6:09:17 PM   
MR_BURNS2


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SIDE: US
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
3x KC-97 Stratotanker
19x B-47E-IV Strato-Jet


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
12x 20mm M24A1
60x Mark-21 Strategic Bomb



SIDE: USSR
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
74x MiG-17PF Fresco D
16x Single-Unit Airfield (1x 3201-4000m Runway)
9x Radar (Tall King A [P-14])
144x 100mm KS-19
92x Binoculars (Visual)
36x Vehicle (Fire Can [SON-9])
224x 130mm KS-30
56x Vehicle (Fire Wheel [SON-30])
20x Radar (Thin Skin A HF [PRV-9])
17x Radar (Spoon Rest A [P-12])
5x Single-Unit Airfield (1x 1401-2000m Runway)
3x Radar (Token)
2x Single-Unit Airfield (1x 451-900m Runway)
2x Radar (Flat Face A [P-15])
8x MGM-5A/B Corporal[20kT Nuclear] Mobile Launcher


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
34x 23mm NR-23 x 3 Burst [60 rnds]
1x 100mm KS-19 Frag


Where did the russians get these 8x MGM-5A/B Corporal?


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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/5/2013 6:20:25 PM   
.Sirius


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Will update bomb loads on nukes
quote:

ORIGINAL: MR_BURNS2

Yeah it does need a lot of micromanagement, but it works.Would be nice if they would do automatic blast evasion maneuvers, but thats surely hard to implement.

I found a little problem there, not that it would matter in the endgame.
All the Migs apparently divert to Fedotovo way south of the theater after their bases got destroyed.
I think it works like this: the next base used as Diversionary Base is by default the last one u added on the map, if you want them to use other closer bases, delete those and make new bases in the editor.
It doesn't make a difference however, by the time they are turned around my bombers will already be on their way back home. Unfortunately some of my tankers shared too much fuel and didn't make it home.


Btw. what is the payload of the B-47? Wiki says 25000lb, yet she carries 4 15000lb Mark-21 bombs???
We should look up specific B-47 loadout data for the DB.


_____________________________

Paul aka Sirius
Command Developer
Warfaresims
Cold War Data Base 1946-1979 Author

Old radar men never die - Their echoes fade away in accordance with the inverse fourth power law

(in reply to MR_BURNS2)
Post #: 14
RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/6/2013 12:29:38 AM   
acbennett3


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Thanks for the feedback MRBurns.
A few questions:
1. Were the B-47's lost because of the Mig-17's or nuclear blasts? What blast evasion method did you use - just straight over/hi speed/hi altitude or something else?
2. 74 Mig-17's - did you add some?
3. I noticed the MGM-5's earlier - they were stationed at the far east base on the coast of the Peninsula - Kala something I believe. Obviously don't belong there but were part of the pre-built Kola 50 inst file.
4. Will have to test the tanker problem. When I did my testing I created support areas above their bases so the B-47's headed for them and when the 135's were low on fuel they were right above their base to land.

It was cool to see the B-47's head towards the tankers BEFORE they did their attack runs even though they had plenty of fuel. That I believe was SAC doctrine - after take off before or by the Decision Point the bombers would fillup/top off.


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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/6/2013 1:05:16 AM   
MR_BURNS2


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1. Both, it turned out that the only safe method of delivery is to blow straight through at max speed.
2. I didn't add anything, played in game mode only. I hit many on the ground, when i use bombers i never go straight in but force the defenders to burn their fuel, many of the destroyed must have been on their bases refueling. You have to play out your range advantage against them short range fighters, In WW2 they did the same, SAC plans were probably similar.
3. Might be a good idea to delete things not needed for the mission to increase performance.
4. I made a bug report in the beta forum, support area over base is a good idea!



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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 11/9/2013 10:22:18 PM   
acbennett3


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From: Montana
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Some of these points have been raised in this thread and other threads in the forum.

Problems/Observations

1. Auto attack uses all weapons of type - all Nuc bombs, all missiles, etc. Is there a way to use auto attack but limit/set manually the number of weapons used - ie use/drop only 1 of the 4 nuc bombs instead of all 4? Also it forces the predetermined attack profile for the weapon for speed and altitude. While you apparently can tweak the altitude it refused to let me change the speed manually - kept shifting back to auto. Either/or - auto attack is clunky but the only other choice is full manual. For large scenarios/operations I really don't want to have to micro manage down to the individual unit and even ordinance used if possible.

2. RTB Winchester setting does not pick good course/speed/altitude settings. Default appears to be direct return course to base and cruise speed. Only choice is to turn off RTB Winchester and manually control the aircraft - many A/C labor intensive. For this scenario after Auto attack drops all 4 bombs on the target RTB Winchester kicks in and heads straight back to the home base and lowers speed to cruise. When exiting a megaton blast slowing down is exactly the wrong thing to do. Also if interceptors or heavy AAA defenses are around the best choice may not be straight to the home base if it heads towards enemy defenses. My solution is to deactivate RTB Winchester in the ROE but then I am back to micro managing.

3. While controlling A/C with RTB Winchester off anytime I change the course most of the time it shifts speed to Auto/Cruise instead of staying at my Full/Military manual setting.

4. Megaton yield nuclear bombs can only be dropped from relatively high altitude. SAC doctrine from the mid-50's on is for the bombers to penetrate the enemy air space at low altitude but then they need to climb to hi altitude to drop the bombs exposing themselves to enemy detection/attack. The attack profiles set on the weapons/packages do not reflect this.

5. When a Nuclear bomb is dropped and in a few cases 'misses' the target it does not detonate - but is not listed as a malfunction. With Nuclear weapons a miss should not prevent detonation since for most targets the bomb just has to be relatively close.

6. Tankers deliver too much fuel to the bombers and then they can't RTB, run out of fuel and crash - major issue (previously mentioned).

7. B-47's divert for tankers automatically instead of doing attack run first. How is this programmed and can it be controlled/stopped - short of not launching the tankers until after the B-47's are done w/their attack run?

Found when I let the land strike missions control all aspects of the strike the B-47's stay at 36K ft/cruise speed the entire way there thus being detected early and much easier for the Mig-17's to close and attack. Also if they succeed in dropping their bombs they still maintain cruise speed (350kts) egressing - which most of the time has them being consumed in the blast.

If I initially send them in at low altitude/1000ft the Soviet radar has a much harder time detecting them and maintaining contact, as do the Mig-17's (before the time of look down radar). Then the 47's need to climb to 25k (from my testing) before dropping their 5mT bomb(s). Finally I have to manually attack the target to ensure only 1 bomb is used, and then manually control egress - 25K and >500knots on a straight course away usually succeeds. No way to automate this so every bomber needs to be manually controlled - initially for the low altitude Soviet airspace penetration, then the climb to 25k and manual bombing, and finally the hi spd/alt egress from the target.

Can't wait for the air mission planner…


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RE: Kola Peninsula 1956 TESTING - 2/12/2014 1:01:02 PM   
Dimitris


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bump

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