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Alternate Loads - 10/23/2013 5:44:05 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
Moved it here to keep it separate from the Airplane Thread. Good question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: packerpete
I understand your position sir, but let me try to explain my reasoning. I do not have the resources that you possess as to the actual/practical load outs on every aircraft or weapon ever made. I do not have access to the code either (Thank YOU JESUS!!). You have mentioned that code does not handle certain weapons well or at all in some cases like depth charges, rockets and parafrags. I am also aware of the debate on the US dive bombers getting the bigger bombs. I guess what I am asking for is a common baseline that the AE community can use a starting point with a listing of the weapons that are excluded because of code incompatibility reasons. There just does not appear to a one stop shopping list for this and many areas in regard to weapons that known only to the devs.

I do hope that you would consider my request sir. I do not wish to offend anyone. It just seems to me that on this issue there is a lot of gray areas that need to mapped out for the less informed ones like myself that love this game.

Thank you for your time.


No offense in your question, at all. It is rather extensive and takes a lot of explaining. Reason for that is because some things don’t work because of the game concept and structure, not because they don’t work, per se. Perhaps the best way to say it is that certain things don’t work the way their proponents think they should. There are reasons for this, but to understand why and why not, one needs to get their hands around the scope, concept, and structure (organization) of the game’s various combat algorithms. I’ll try and explain it using one specific example – ASW. The concept extensions apply to other areas, as well.

First, one must understand that every one of the combat modes are separate, distinct, and totally unrelated to each other. Naval ASW is utterly different from air ASW. The weapons used in each of these are optimized for the specific algorithm that controls that form of combat. Simply adding a Nav DC device to a plane’s load-out won’t turn the plane into a DD.

Michaelm made sure that the Device Filters had a bit attribute for ASW. But all that means is the plane will load a device for an AIR ASW MISSION. It does not mean that the device will function the same way as it does for a NAVAL ASW MISSION. That functionality is controlled by two different algorithms. The device filters for aircraft are based on the MISSIONS they can be set to fly. They are not based on weapon device characteristics.

If one wants a “DC” as an aircraft weapon for the ASW “mission”, I suggest adding a device in the file, “Typing” it as an 03 GP bomb, but naming it as a DC and setting the specs where you want them. Now you got Air “missions” and Air “devices” that work together.

Am I making sense, or …


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Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
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Post #: 1
RE: Alternate Loads - 10/23/2013 7:43:40 PM   
MateDow


Posts: 217
Joined: 8/6/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon

...If one wants a “DC” as an aircraft weapon for the ASW “mission”, I suggest adding a device in the file, “Typing” it as an 03 GP bomb, but naming it as a DC and setting the specs where you want them. Now you got Air “missions” and Air “devices” that work together.

Am I making sense, or …



Actually, making them a "bomb" makes a lot of sense.

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 2
RE: Alternate Loads - 10/23/2013 9:04:52 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
Thank you MateDow. Believe it does. What follows is not directed at you.

Once upon a time, michaelm added ASW missions to the device filters. So the hounds went baying after ASW devices, without regard for device parameters. ASW .. ASW .. ASW .. what? You mean ASW isn’t ASW? How can this be? It must be a bug ! Fix it at once ! Sigh …

And then there’s the A2A algorithm and A2A missles. I really like this one. This one is choice. Ooh Yeah …

Ciao. JWE


_____________________________

Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.

(in reply to MateDow)
Post #: 3
RE: Alternate Loads - 11/14/2013 6:14:44 PM   
packerpete

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline
Thank you for the reply and I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. I had some real life things to take care of like deploying to Afghanistan.

First, I mistook your intent on the aircraft thread. I thought you were going to modify the amount of bombs carried, in some cases, to make the altitudes and/or in game aircraft ranges match up more realistically. I think you probably did that by reducing altitudes and manuever ratings.

Oh well, I was hoping for a file like you did for the aircraft performance enhancements. One tailored to/for each scenario would be probably too much work but, how about one for the early war years and late. Come up with your best guestimation of what you think is RIGHTEOUS but not OUTRAGEOUS And if any one of the usual suspects complains, to bad. You did your best with a hole hell of alot more information and knowledge than anyone of us has to work with and no one is forced to use it. Just thought it would be a good idea to throw a baseline out there as a starting point for everyone to start with. You and the rest of the Babes team DO set the standard for everyone else to follow and you all do not get enough credit or appreciation. Just my 2 sheckels.

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 4
RE: Alternate Loads - 11/15/2013 1:38:01 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4577
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
To play with bombloads is relatively easy if weights are known, you just reduce the fuel and oil load by the bombs that you want to add proportionally. Obviously this is not precisely correct but is a good approximation. Then make the same for range.
Knowing the detailed weights of an airplane is essential and i say that is impossible to know the range vs bombload performance of a bomber/patrol/attack aircraft without playing with them. This includes for example verifying the number of the crew for the machine guns, etc.
If a sub version of a model have 2 more positions for machine guns there is need to add 2 more crew, roughly 160kg, the weight of the mounts, the 2 machine guns and respective ammunition. This in total might mean less 350kg in fuel+oil which affects range or less bombs.
Another thing to take care is the true weight of a bomb. The nominal reference might not be the true weight.

For the game, absent code, you can produce models with different bombloads, and then change as you like.

As a side note is also important to know how the bomb bay is designed and what bomb quantities were possible, space is an issue when a player want short range missions and increases the normal bombload. This is more or less trivial for American planes where most data is widely available but not for some other nations and more rare models.

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(in reply to packerpete)
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