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RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/11/2013 6:47:18 AM   
Hannable

 

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[ADDED DB v440]

I'm not sure if this has been requested or not, but I'd like to see the Brazilian corvette, "Barosso" class added to DB3000. I'd give you more info, but it seems I can't post links.

Also the Brazilian navy operated a few Alan M. Sumner destroyers into the 1990's.

Two "Brooklyn" class light cruisers were in service until the late 1970's which I know doesn't *quite" get into DB3000, but would be nice if they could be slipped in.



< Message edited by emsoy -- 7/21/2015 11:09:18 AM >

(in reply to Mgellis)
Post #: 91
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/11/2013 5:40:39 PM   
apd1004


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[UPDATED DB v440]

I have an issue with the ZSU-23-4 in the database, and the GUN DISH radar as well. As far as I know, it is the same entry in DB3K as CWDB (maybe different entry #?).

In DB3K the GUN DISH radar is listed as an onboard sensor on the ZSU-23-4 (#908) under the mounts/stores/weapons listing, but GUN DISH also has a separate listing as a "mobile vehicle" (#1248). After much research I have found no references of the GUN DISH being used or mounted anywhere other than on a ZSU-23-4. As far as I can tell, the GUN DISH radar was the fire control radar for the ZSU-23-4 exclusively and it was also capable of search and acquisition and had a 20km range.

I have done some testing and discovered that the vanilla ZSU-23-4 when firing at a target has only a 5% base probability of hit. Compare this to the M163 VADS which has a 70% base probability to hit. The M163 VADS had a range-only radar not tied to the fire control system like the GUN DISH is on the ZSU-23-4. True, the M163 is a rotary cannon with 3000rpm, but the ZSU-23-4 had four 23mm liquid cooled cannons capable of 800-1000rpm on each gun, so as far as sustained rate of fire the ZSU-23-4 can actually put more lead downrange than the Vulcan, so RPM should not be a differentiating factor between the two systems. The ZSU-23-4 used the GUN DISH to provide a firing solution to the ballistic computer which would then lay the powered & stabilized turret and guns to provide automatic lead for the gunner. In short, I think the ZSU-23-4 base probability of hit is way too low and the M163 is way too high. They should probably both be somewhere in the 30-50% range, with the ZSU being in the upper zone and the Vulcan being in the lower zone of that percentage spread.

During the same tests I also discovered that the vanilla ZSU-23-4 was not detecting aircraft with anything other than Mk1 Eyeball and gave off no radar signature, even with the GUN DISH active. The M163 does give off a radar signature and does not detect aircraft, which is appropriate for a range-only radar.

When placing a stand-alone GUN DISH, it behaves the way I would expect the one mounted on the ZSU-23-4 to behave, and that is it has a 10nm (should be 12nm) air radar circle and it does detect aircraft and gives off a radar signature. When I removed the internal GUN DISH sensor from the ZSU-23-4 and added the standalone version, I got the ZSU-23-4 that I wanted to see except that the PH was still 5%.

I also believe that the gun range on the ZSU-23-4 is a bit short as is the M163 Vulcan. My references show ZSU-23-4 having a tactical AA range of 2500m (1.35nm) and the Vulcan at 2000m (1.07nm). I would be ok with 1.2nm for the ZSU and 1.0nm for the Vulcan. It should also be able to be used against ground targets.

I'm also wondering about manually aimed AA guns having a base PH of 1%, but that will require more testing and can be in another thread. I just don't agree that a ZU-23 towed AA gun only has a 1% chance to hit a UH-1 Huey flying straight and level.

Summary of proposed changes:

-Remove #1248 (GUN DISH radar) from DB3K as a standalone unit
-Install the sensor data from #1248 onto the ZSU-23-4 (#908) i.e. - put the GUN DISH on the ZSU so that it actually works right
-Increase range on all Soviet 23mm AA guns (ZU-23 and ZSU-23-4) to 1.2nm
-Increase range of GUN DISH radar to 12nm.
-Increase 23mm ZSU-23-4 burst base PH to 50% (#1844)
-Decrease 20mm/85 Vulcan burst base PH from 70% to 30% (#1836)
-Increase range of 20mm/85 Vulcan to 1nm
-Allow both weapons to engage ground targets

Cheers

SOURCES:

Anti-aircraft ZSU-23-4 Shilka (Translated from Russian). Accessed November 11, 2013. armyinrussian.narod.ru/suhoputnie/shilka.htm

FM 100-2-3. Washington D.C.: Headquarters, Department of the Army, 1991

< Message edited by emsoy -- 7/21/2015 11:13:15 AM >

(in reply to Hannable)
Post #: 92
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/12/2013 12:27:07 AM   
MR_BURNS2


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I just noticed that ZSU-23-2 also has the same FCR as the -4, i think they used their common optics only.

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(in reply to apd1004)
Post #: 93
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/12/2013 2:29:05 PM   
e2204588

 

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Comparison of all anti-aircraft capable gun.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Aglj4LO3uHBqdFJmQVhoNjVrb1RCa3cwck53eXpCRlE&output=html

Maybe we can do a complete review.

(in reply to apd1004)
Post #: 94
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/12/2013 3:24:59 PM   
e2204588

 

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J-6 and F-6 should be Fighter instead of Attack.

(in reply to e2204588)
Post #: 95
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/12/2013 4:27:54 PM   
apd1004


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Thanks for the link to that list. I'm now starting to look at the 2S6 Tunguska and I can already see that it needs some work too.

Aircraft are already given a maneuverability modifier which is applied to AA fire. If your typical AA gun only has a base PH of 1% to begin with, essentially that means the maneuverability modifier is irrelevant and it has no better chance of hitting a C-17 than it does an F/A-18. In Harpoon (not that CMANO is Harpoon, but it is a good guideline) AA guns had anywhere from 10% PH for single gun manual/optical aiming all the way up to 90% PH for the more advanced radar controlled high-ROF systems. With some of the better gun systems their only real drawback is their limited range.

I agree, a complete review of anti-aircraft guns is necessary.

(in reply to e2204588)
Post #: 96
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/12/2013 5:54:36 PM   
bsq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: apd1004

Thanks for the link to that list. I'm now starting to look at the 2S6 Tunguska and I can already see that it needs some work too.

Aircraft are already given a maneuverability modifier which is applied to AA fire. If your typical AA gun only has a base PH of 1% to begin with, essentially that means the maneuverability modifier is irrelevant and it has no better chance of hitting a C-17 than it does an F/A-18. In Harpoon (not that CMANO is Harpoon, but it is a good guideline) AA guns had anywhere from 10% PH for single gun manual/optical aiming all the way up to 90% PH for the more advanced radar controlled high-ROF systems. With some of the better gun systems their only real drawback is their limited range.

I agree, a complete review of anti-aircraft guns is necessary.

Of course if base PH is per round... then the lower percentages are probably accurate, whereas the higher ones are likely not. ZSU's and 2S6 put up a wall of lead, not a 'finger of God'. Even weapons such as Phalanx and Goalkeeper, with rotary cannon, put up patterns of lead/DU in order to improve the PH on small targets

(in reply to apd1004)
Post #: 97
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/12/2013 10:14:05 PM   
Rudd

 

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UK RC-135s,
quote:

It is aiming to achieve full operational capability of the three RC-135s by mid-2017.

from http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pictures-first-raf-rivet-joint-aircraft-arrives-in-uk-392875/
first one IOC October 2014, http://www.airrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=888



< Message edited by Rudd -- 11/12/2013 11:21:34 PM >

(in reply to bsq)
Post #: 98
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/13/2013 12:23:16 AM   
mikmykWS

 

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Logged the balance of these to be looked at.

Thanks!

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RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/13/2013 11:49:49 PM   
MR_BURNS2


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When playing Canary´s Cage i noticed that Spain´s Sea King AEW´s (DB #668+ #1935) radars have no Air-Search capability altough the radar has the same name as in the british one.

Is this just a bug or did the Armada refuse to buy them with all extras?


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Post #: 100
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/14/2013 6:57:17 AM   
Rob322

 

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I saw both CV 41 Midway and CV 43 Coral Sea had space for AIM-54A and C in their magazines. But those carriers couldn't carry the F-14 and none of the jets they could carry could handle the AIM-54.

(in reply to MR_BURNS2)
Post #: 101
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/14/2013 2:32:51 PM   
MR_BURNS2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob322

I saw both CV 41 Midway and CV 43 Coral Sea had space for AIM-54A and C in their magazines. But those carriers couldn't carry the F-14 and none of the jets they could carry could handle the AIM-54.


Its up to the scenario designer to get the magazine loadout right, going into detail about which magazine can carry this and that and which cant would demand a little too much from the developers.

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RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/14/2013 5:17:31 PM   
e2204588

 

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F-16A Blk 20 should use AIM-9M instead of AIM-9S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China_Air_Force#Missile_inventory
http://www.taiwanairpower.org/af/index.html

(in reply to MR_BURNS2)
Post #: 103
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/14/2013 6:39:03 PM   
Russian Heel


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I just noticed in the editor (in both DB)The Soviet Army assets are incorrectly labeled as "Red Army." In 1946 it stopped being the "Workers and Peasants Red Army" and became the "Soviet Army." Since this sim is so detail oriented I feel this should be corrected.

(in reply to e2204588)
Post #: 104
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/15/2013 3:18:10 AM   
Mgellis


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I may have requested a couple of these already, but that was in another thread, so I'm reposting to make sure they aren't missed. I think adding more coast guard platforms will be helpful to scenario writers because I have a feeling that as budget cuts, etc. come into play, coast guard vessels may be called on more and more to fill in gaps for the Navy. They won't be part of battle groups, but they might do things that might otherwise be assigned to an LCS or a Navy patrol boat...some of them are almost as well-armed as an LCS, after all. :)

Defender-class boat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCG_Defender_class_boat <-- slightly different than other similar boats, in terms of weapons, so it probably deserves its own entry
http://www.uscg.mil/datasheet/25rbs.asp
http://www.safeboats.com/boats/defender-250/
http://www.boattest.com/resources/view_news.aspx?NewsID=853

41-foot Utility Boat, Large
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USCG_Utility_Boat <-- not armed, but might be used to spot hostile vessels, rescue civilians, etc. I also suspect putting a machine gun or two on this would not be too hard.
http://www.uscg.mil/history/assets/boats/docs/41FootUtilityBoat.pdf

Response Boat – Medium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_boat-medium
http://www.uscg.mil/acquisition/rbm/pdf/rb-m.pdf


Marine Protector-class coastal patrol boat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Protector-class_coastal_patrol_boat
http://www.uscg.mil/datasheet/87wpb.asp
http://www.bollingershipyards.com/Portfolio/Military--Government-Vessels/USCG-87-Marine-Protector-Class-Patrol-Boats-CPB
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg9/newsroom/pdf/CG9newsletterOct08sup.pdf
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg9/newsroom/pdf/CG9newsletterMay09.pdf
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/wpb-87-specs.htm

Offshore Patrol Cutter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offshore_Patrol_Cutter
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg9/opc/pdf/SectionL.II.rev.a.pdf
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg9/opc/default.asp
http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg9/opc/pdf/opc.pdf
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-coast-guard%E2%80%99s-offshore-patrol-cutter/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/offshore-cutter.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/offshore-cutter-specs.htm

Sentinel-class cutter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinel-class_cutter
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/voted-off-the-island-the-uscgs-deepwater-frc-program-03160/
http://wikialpha.org/wiki/Sentinel_class_cutter
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-fast-response-cutter-a-new-generation-of-coast-guard-patrol-boats/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/fast-response-cutter-b-specs.htm

National Security Cutter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Cutter
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-uscgs-national-security-cutters-03614/
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2012/January/Pages/CoastGuardStakesItsFutureonNationalSecurityCutters.aspx
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/nsc-specs.htm

Thanks!

< Message edited by Mgellis -- 11/15/2013 4:18:38 AM >

(in reply to Russian Heel)
Post #: 105
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/16/2013 1:36:19 PM   
Dobey455

 

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The Airbus A330-200 MRTT in Australian service (RAAF - Aircraft 1827) should have both a centerline boom and wing drogues, it currently has wing drogues only.

(in reply to Mgellis)
Post #: 106
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/16/2013 5:54:20 PM   
Apocal

 

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MH-53E Sea Dragon (1984)
Loadout AN/AQS-14 Helicopter-Towed Minehunting Sonar requires zero AN/AQS-14 sonars, making the loadout unusable.

(in reply to Dobey455)
Post #: 107
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/16/2013 6:38:38 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Various requests logged to look at.

M

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Post #: 108
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/17/2013 3:27:04 AM   
e2204588

 

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SH-60J and SH-60K have no sonobuoy in their loadout currently.

According to
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/SH-60J_(%E8%88%AA%E7%A9%BA%E6%A9%9F)#.E4.B8.BB.E8.A6.81.E8.A3.85.E5.82.99.E5.93.81
They can carry 25x sonobuoys. (ソノブイ)

< Message edited by fool12342000 -- 11/17/2013 4:27:47 AM >

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Post #: 109
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/17/2013 5:51:34 AM   
Mgellis


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I can't remember if anyone has suggested these yet (apologies for any duplications)...

Damen Stan 4207 patrol vessel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damen_Stan_4207_patrol_vessel <-- there's like 40 of these in service in various places around the world; some sub-classes will probably have to be included
http://www.damen.com/en/markets/stan-patrol

Swiftships 12m Patrol Boat
http://ss.veriqual.com/military/specification/12m-patrol-boat/

Swiftships 14m High Speed Interceptor
http://ss.veriqual.com/military/specification/14m-high-speed-interceptor/

Swiftships 26 Meter Patrol Boat
http://ss.veriqual.com/military/specification/26-meter-patrol-boat/

Swiftships 28m Patrol Boat
http://ss.veriqual.com/military/specification/28m-patrol-boat/

Swiftships 35m Patrol Boat
http://ss.veriqual.com/military/specification/4545-2/

Algerian MEKO-200 (supposedly the same as the South African version, but I'm not sure...it may need its own database listing; it might be helpful to simply copy the listing and list it under Algeria anyway, just to avoid confusion, even if the ships are the same in terms of design, sensors, weapons, etc.)

Damen Stan 2600
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damen_Stan_2600
http://www.damen.com/en/markets/stan-patrol
http://damenshipyardshardinxveld.nl/en/products/stan-patrol/2606
http://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/37430/

(Side note...I found another source for the Sentinel USCG Cutter: http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg9/newsroom/pdf/sentinelmediabrief.pdf)


(in reply to e2204588)
Post #: 110
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/17/2013 1:15:10 PM   
Apocal

 

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False Contact (Small) and False Contact (Medium) are both listed as subsurface contacts but are readily detectable by P-3's ISAR radar and AN/APS-124 of a SH-60F.

< Message edited by Apocal -- 11/17/2013 2:16:01 PM >

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Post #: 111
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/17/2013 1:47:04 PM   
Rudd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocal

False Contact (Small) and False Contact (Medium) are both listed as subsurface contacts but are readily detectable by P-3's ISAR radar and AN/APS-124 of a SH-60F.

I believe the scenario writer has to place them below periscope depth(shallow or deeper), as with all subs, or else the surface search radars find them quite easily.

(in reply to Apocal)
Post #: 112
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/17/2013 2:26:45 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Requests updated. Thanks guys!

Mike

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Post #: 113
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/17/2013 2:46:19 PM   
bsq


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1609 Patriot - Israel = wrong missiles for a GEM+ modified system.

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Post #: 114
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/17/2013 2:49:26 PM   
bsq


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Asked for before, but could we have an RC-135W for the United Kingdom - it was delivered last week...


http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/first-british-rivet-joint-aircraft-delivered-to-the-uk-12112013

(in reply to bsq)
Post #: 115
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/17/2013 3:22:47 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Fix request added and prior request updated

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Post #: 116
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/17/2013 4:24:59 PM   
bsq


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1789 Pechora 2M - states twin rail launchers (correct) assigned 4/4 SA-3C Goa missiles (incorrect) should be 2/2 as per the fact its a twin rail launcher

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Post #: 117
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/17/2013 4:35:26 PM   
bsq


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The tacsams, SA-9, SA-11, SA-15, SA-17, SA-19, SA-22 do not have magazines yet the tacsams SA-4, 6, 8 and 13 do. I presume that the 'magazines' are actually a way of abstracting the transloaders? In that case please add 2 extra sets of reloads per system to the first group of tacsams mentioned in this post.

(in reply to bsq)
Post #: 118
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/17/2013 5:02:00 PM   
mikmykWS

 

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Logged. Thanks!

Mike

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Post #: 119
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/17/2013 9:44:06 PM   
Barny23


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I am missing this one in the German (FGR) Luftwaffe part of the DB3000

From Wikipidia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29

The German Democratic Republic (also known as East Germany) bought 24 MiG-29s (20 MiG-29As, four MiG-29UBs), which entered service in 1988–1989. After the fall of the Berlin Wall in November 1989 and reunification of Germany in October 1990, the MiG-29s and other aircraft of the East German Air Forces of the National People's Army were integrated into the West German Luftwaffe.[citation needed]

The Federation of American Scientists claims the MiG-29 is equal or better than the F-15C in some areas such as short aerial engagements because of the Helmet Mounted Weapons Sight (HMS) and better maneuverability at slow speeds.[68] This was demonstrated when MiG-29s of the German Air Force participated in joint DACT exercises with US fighters.[69][70] The HMS was a great help, allowing the Germans to achieve a lock on any target the pilot could see within the missile field of view, including those almost 45 degrees off boresight.[71] In contrast, the American aircraft were only able to lock onto targets in a narrow window directly in front of the aircraft’s nose. It was not until late 2003 that the USAF and US Navy achieved Initial Operational Capability of the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System.

Since 1993 the German MiGs were stationed with 1./JG73 "Steinhoff" in Laage near Rostock. During the service in the German Air Force one MiG-29 ("29+09") was destroyed during an accident on 25 June 1996 due to pilot error. By 2003, German Air Force pilots had flown over 30,000 hours in the MiG-29. In September 2003, 22 of the 23 remaining machines were sold to the Polish Air Force for the symbolic price of €1 per item.[72] The last aircraft were transferred in August 2004.[73] The 23rd MiG-29 ("29+03") was put on display at Laage.
Barny

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