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RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/24/2019 3:01:28 PM   
Tookatee

 

Posts: 256
Joined: 6/11/2019
Status: offline
The #1935 Hsiung Feng I has an incorrect maximum range value, weight, warhead weight, and top speed. It should have a maximum range of 40 km (or 21.5983 nautical miles), a total weight of 537.5 kg, a warhead weight of 150 kg of HE, and a top speed of 433.38 knots.

Source: Missile Defense Project, "Hsiung Feng I / IA," Missile Threat, Center for Strategic and International Studies, July 13, 2017, last modified June 15, 2018, https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/hsiung-feng-ia/

(in reply to FrangibleCover)
Post #: 5251
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/24/2019 5:10:04 PM   
Laudern

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 11/22/2019
Status: offline
#4658 EV-22E Opsrey
Type is not ASW, it should be AEW from what I found.

(in reply to Tookatee)
Post #: 5252
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/24/2019 5:56:00 PM   
Dreamsicle

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 3/3/2016
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Not sure where to post this part as it's mainly inquiries regarding the F-35C.

#4873 F-35C 2024 has the JSOW-ER but #3836 F-35C 2025 does not have this weapon usable in any of its loadouts. Additionally, #4874 F-35C 2028 has lost almost all of its external loadouts except the GBU-12/D along with the ability to use the JATM (as stated in an earlier post, the larger LJDAMs and almost all the Paveways with the exception of the GBU-12. Are these discrepancies intended? If not would it be possible to add the JSOW-ER to the 2025 variant and the additional weapons and external loadouts from the 2025 variant to the 2028 variant?

Finally can the hypothetical naval aircraft that have 2020 variants have additional future variants with the new weapons systems like the JSOW-ER, JAGM, JATM and AARGM-ER? As these are hypothetical aircraft I understand that this request will be low in priority.

< Message edited by Dreamsicle -- 11/24/2019 5:58:19 PM >

(in reply to Laudern)
Post #: 5253
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/24/2019 6:43:39 PM   
stilesw


Posts: 1334
Joined: 6/26/2014
From: Hansville, WA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

#4873 F-35C 2024 has the JSOW-ER but #3836 F-35C 2025 does not have this weapon usable in any of its loadouts. Additionally, #4874 F-35C 2028 has lost almost all of its external loadouts except the GBU-12/D along with the ability to use the JATM (as stated in an earlier post, the larger LJDAMs and almost all the Paveways with the exception of the GBU-12. Are these discrepancies intended? If not would it be possible to add the JSOW-ER to the 2025 variant and the additional weapons and external loadouts from the 2025 variant to the 2028 variant?

Finally can the hypothetical naval aircraft that have 2020 variants have additional future variants with the new weapons systems like the JSOW-ER, JAGM, JATM and AARGM-ER? As these are hypothetical aircraft I understand that this request will be low in priority.

Noted for possible future DB3K changes.

-WS

_____________________________

“There is no limit to what a man can do so long as he does not care a straw who gets the credit for it.”

Charles Edward Montague, English novelist and essayist
~Disenchantment, ch. 15 (1922)

(in reply to Dreamsicle)
Post #: 5254
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/24/2019 7:12:48 PM   
x2oop

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 2/7/2019
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I found a very detailed article about new Iranian long range AD system called Bavar-373. It might be helpful if you considered adding it to DB at some point:

https://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2019/08/irans-bavar-373-profile.html

(in reply to stilesw)
Post #: 5255
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/24/2019 7:25:47 PM   
gosnold

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 7/10/2013
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A few requests on near-future French platforms:

1) First of all thanks for adding the FTI frigates
#3172 FTI Belharra frigate should be called Amiral Ronarc’h FDI (5x, 2023)
It should not have any A-35 Sylver MICA VL silos, but it should have two Sylver A50 silos instead of just one.
It also should not have the Herakles radar, only the Seafire.
Source is xav which posted this in the news thread:
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/10/naval-group-starts-construction-of-amiral-ronarch-french-navys-1st-fdi-frigate/

2) Please a 3 Archange SIGINT planes. It's a general SIGINT platform based on the Dassault Falcon 8x airframe, IOC 2025, 3 planes are to be procured.
Source in French:
https://www.defense.gouv.fr/dga/actualite/florence-parly-lance-la-realisation-du-programme-archange

3) Vulcano-class logistics ship for the Italian Navy (2020,2x) and their derivative for the French navy (2023,4x)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcano-class_logistic_support_ship
http://lignesdedefense.blogs.ouest-france.fr/archive/2019/01/31/flotlog-1-7-milliards-e-pour-quatre-batiments-ravitailleurs-20000.html

4) CERES SIGINT satellites. It's a triplet like the early NOSS, launch 2020 (unknown orbit, you could use the same as a NOSS as a placeholder)

5) H160M guepard helicopter. It replaces medium helicopter in the Army, Air force and Navy. Has a FLIR, a radar, and can carry a Sea Venom missile or machine guns. IOC 2026
https://www.airbus.com/helicopters/military-helicopters/medium/h160M.html
https://airbus-h.assetsadobe2.com/is/image/content/dam/stock-and-creative/infographic/H160M_infographic_EN.jpg?wid=991&fit=fit,1&qlt=85,0

(in reply to stilesw)
Post #: 5256
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/25/2019 4:33:51 PM   
apd1004


Posts: 146
Joined: 8/1/2006
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Found these recently - modernization of an old warhorse:

ZSU-23-4MP Biala, a modernized version of ZSU-23-4 Shilka in Polish service (IOC 2012-ish?). Looks like they have already equipped two of their tank brigades with these. Got rid of the radar and went with a passive optoelectronic TV/thermal imaging fire control system (no ESM signature!) and also added 4 x GROM (Polish version of SA-18) SAM launchers on the turret.

http://www.zmt.tarnow.pl/wordpress/en/item/przeciwlotniczy-samobiezny-zestaw-artyleryjsko-rakietowy-zsu-23-4mp-biala/

Also looks like Ukraine is developing their own modernized version called ZSU-23-4M-A, unknown IOC or if they have even purchased it yet but it sounds like trials began in 2018. Looks like this one still has a radar but it too has the 4 SAM launchers (Igla SA-18/SA-24 in this case).

https://defence-ua.com/index.php/en/publications/defense-express-publications/3904-new-capabilities-for-the-zsu-23-4-shilka





_____________________________

apd1004
_______________
Jeff Leslie
Akron OH, USA

(in reply to gosnold)
Post #: 5257
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/25/2019 8:11:16 PM   
Tookatee

 

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Joined: 6/11/2019
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The #1627-1628 Sea Cat and #1854 and #344 Tiger Cat missiles have an incorrect top speed. It should be 550.755 knots rather than 800.

Sources: http://www.saairforce.co.za/the-airforce/weapons/88/hilda-tigercat-sam and Naval Armament, https://books.google.com/books?id=zUu4AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA532&lpg=PA532&dq=sea+cat+mod+1+missile&source=bl&ots=vESVs2iTvg&sig=ACfU3U1u15RyRnrpkPwQv8byWxztfSuMyg&hl=en&ppis=_e&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwizxYXspobmAhVSpFkKHSuQDUA4ChDoATAAegQIChAB#v=onepage&q=tiger%20cat&f=false , https://www.saairforce.co.za/the-airforce/weapons/88/hilda-tigercat-sam , and Doug Richardson, Jane's Publishing, 1981, ISBN 0-531-03738-X

< Message edited by Tookatee -- 11/25/2019 9:28:24 PM >

(in reply to Tookatee)
Post #: 5258
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/26/2019 5:12:33 PM   
Zathred

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 7/5/2018
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The SA-15 Tor mobile SAM system modelling seems to have some issues. Not sure whether this is classified as a coding or DB problem.

1. There are several variants of the unit in the database but they all share the same DBID #2606 Scrum Half FCR radar which allows x2 max targets to be illuminated. The different variants have different max targets (Tor-M: x1, Tor-M1: x2, Tor-M2: x4)

2. The WRA allows 1,2,3 or all weapons per salvo but all variants of the Tor can only guide max 2 missiles per target

The result is the original Tor such as DBID #288 is over-powered and the later M2 variants are underpowered both in terms of number of simultaneous targets and number of missiles guided per target.

Note that each "unit" is a platoon of x2 Tor vehicles which I have allowed for in the evaluation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_missile_system

(in reply to Temple)
Post #: 5259
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/27/2019 8:23:40 PM   
KLAB

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 2/27/2007
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Two part request for consideration please as it effects a significant platform: Based on issues with the PALASH/PALMA systems on the Gorshkov:

PART 1: There are two SA-N-24's in the DB480.

1. DB #2693 SA-N-24 Grinch [9M342] This is essentially the Igla-S SA-24 Grinch MANPAD and in its naval version mounted predominantly on the 3M47 Gibka automated mount.
NATO reporting name Grinch has long been accredited to the Igla-S from multiple sources.
If the convention of naval systems following land based equivalents then everything points to the SA-N-24 Grinch being accurate.

https://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=714
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_army_light_heavy_weapons_uk/sa-24_grinch_9k338_igla-s_portable_air_defense_missile_system_technical_data_sheet_specifications_uk.html
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/3m-47/


2. DB #3350 SA-N-24 Grinch [9M337] Sosna-RA SSM capable THIS IS NOT ACCURATE PLEASE AMEND #3350 REMOVE SA-N-24 Grinch title.
The Wikepedia references Sosna as the SA-24 from an ARMYRECOGNITION fact page yet the same source references the Igla-S as the SA-24.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_missile_system_vehicle_uk/sosna_short-range_air_defense_missile_system_technical_data_sheet_specifications_pictures_video_11312155.html
http://kbtochmash.com/defence-products/products-en/products-en_2.html

It would appear that in reality SOSNA as yet it does not have its own NATO reference.
The reporting name Grinch would not be used for two completely different systems even if SA-N-24 were in use.
The production missile is the 9M340 Sosna - 9M337 was the trials and evaluation version.
The missile is listed as SALH, it is not, it uses ACLOS laser command guidance.

Sosna-R 9M340 (not 9M337)
RANGE 10KM
ALTITUDE MAX 5KM
ALTITUDE Minimum 2M
WEIGHT 30KG
SPEED 900M/S 1749 kts
LENGTH (Still checking!)
CALIBRE 130MM (WITH BOOSTER) 72MM (MISSILE)
Targets Airborne - Aircraft/Missiles/PGM/Drone

PART 2: It would be ideal to have two versions of the PALASH CIWS (OR FOUR IF THE EXPORT PALMA system has a separate DB entry)
PALASH / PALMA are distant lighter cousins of the CADS-N-1 KASHTAN/KORTIK lacking the complex and heavy FCR e.t.c.

#2549 CADS-N-1 PALASH RENAME to just PALASH CADS [2 X 30mm AO-18KD 8 X 3M340 Sosna-R Missiles]
http://kbtochmash.com/defence-products/products-en/products-en_2.html - PALMA 30mm+Sosna export version in detail from the manufacturers web page.

NEW MOUNT (COPY) #2549 CADS-N-1 PALASH RENAME to just PALASH CIWS [2 X 30mm AO-18KD] Remove SOSNA missiles. As fitted to Gorshkovs.
http://kbtochmash.com/defence-products/products-en/products-en_2.html PALMA 30mm only export version in detail from the manufacturers web page.

DETAILS OF THE FIRE CONTROL SYSTEM COMMON TO BOTH SYSTEMS;
http://kbtochmash.com/defence-products/products-en/products-en_1.html
TV/Thermal/Laser rangefinder - Electro Optical Fire control system that can be integrated with and cued by other ship sensors but is autonomous in operation.

Thanks for consideration. K

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scar79

#2310 - SKR Admiral Sergey Gorshkov [Pr.2235.0] (Russia [1992-] - 2017)
#2816 - SKR Admiral Sergey Gorshkov [Pr.2235.0] (Russia [1992-] - 2019)
#3174 - SKR Admiral Flota Kasatonov [Pr.2235.0] (Russia [1992-] - 2019)

SA-N-22 Greyhound [Pantsir-M] and everything related to it(FCR Hot Shot [1RS2 Shlem], missiles and magazines for them) needs to be replaced with CADS-N-1 [Palash] but without adding SA-N-24 Grinch [9M337 Sosna-RA] missiles.

Reference images:

Palash AAA on the pr.2235.0 frigate.


Palash/Palma CIWS with Sosna missiles on Vietnamese Pr.1166.1E frigate.


Pantsir-M on the pr.22800(Karakurt-class) missile corvette.





< Message edited by KLAB -- 11/27/2019 9:35:15 PM >

(in reply to Scar79)
Post #: 5260
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/27/2019 10:50:35 PM   
BDukes

 

Posts: 442
Joined: 12/27/2017
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Look like Pakistan get JY-27 Radar

https://www.janes.com/article/92736/jy-27a-radar-spotted-in-pakistan

(in reply to KLAB)
Post #: 5261
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/28/2019 12:14:39 AM   
BDukes

 

Posts: 442
Joined: 12/27/2017
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Okay Singapore update

#1854 KC-135R Retired (no worry Airbus in service!)
https://www.janes.com/article/92483/singapore-air-force-concludes-kc-135r-operations

F-15SG Updates
2016
Amraam C-7 and Blk II AIM-9X (Sipri Source)
**Look like Singapore F-16 get C-7 too.

Add Heron 1
https://www.janes.com/article/91867/update-deleted-image-shows-singapore-air-force-heron-1-uav-with-new-belly-payload-pod
Sipri say ordered 10 and got in 2012-13

Searcher II UAV. Can copy from DB other nations have. #2573
2000

Has Aerostat with EL/M-2083 APR radar (sipri)2016
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/safs-radar-equipped-balloon-lands-singapore

Add EL/M-2084 radar too. Buy 2 in 2016. Call Safari. (Sipri Source). In DB already as #2485 so copies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EL/M-2084

Igla SA-18 1998 (Sipri)
Look like double launcher
http://defensewarnewsupdates.blogspot.com/2010/08/dtn-news-singapore-national-day-parade.html
And Ultra System (4 Igla)
http://defensewarnewsupdates.blogspot.com/2010/08/dtn-news-singapore-national-day-parade.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/april_2014_global_defense_security_news_uk/singapore_could_acquire_russian-made_igla-s_sa-24_man-portable_missile_system_manpads_2704143.html


Thank!








< Message edited by BDukes -- 11/28/2019 12:49:27 AM >

(in reply to BDukes)
Post #: 5262
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/28/2019 6:57:58 AM   
FTBSS

 

Posts: 191
Joined: 8/25/2014
Status: offline
Unit #3836 F-35C 2025 has incredibly wrong RCS Data compared to all other F-35C variants

(in reply to Tookatee)
Post #: 5263
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/28/2019 11:14:19 PM   
stilesw


Posts: 1334
Joined: 6/26/2014
From: Hansville, WA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Unit #3836 F-35C 2025 has incredibly wrong RCS Data compared to all other F-35C variants

Hmmm. They seem to be the same as all the other F-35C entries. Can you provide more specific information?

-WS

_____________________________

“There is no limit to what a man can do so long as he does not care a straw who gets the credit for it.”

Charles Edward Montague, English novelist and essayist
~Disenchantment, ch. 15 (1922)

(in reply to FTBSS)
Post #: 5264
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/28/2019 11:24:38 PM   
FTBSS

 

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Joined: 8/25/2014
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It may be just a database view error it shows the RCS as .14 and .15/sqm while all others show .012 and .0012 /sqm respectively

(in reply to stilesw)
Post #: 5265
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/28/2019 11:57:27 PM   
stilesw


Posts: 1334
Joined: 6/26/2014
From: Hansville, WA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

It may be just a database view error it shows the RCS as .14 and .15/sqm while all others show .012 and .0012 /sqm respectively


Patrick,

Well, I'm missing something or just dense (it happens). Anyway, here are the RCS entries for all of the F-35C's in DB3K. It is not beyond the realm of possibility I'm looking in the wrong place.

-Wayne




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

“There is no limit to what a man can do so long as he does not care a straw who gets the credit for it.”

Charles Edward Montague, English novelist and essayist
~Disenchantment, ch. 15 (1922)

(in reply to FTBSS)
Post #: 5266
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/29/2019 1:18:52 AM   
FTBSS

 

Posts: 191
Joined: 8/25/2014
Status: offline
Yes, not in the tools but in the view database in game. (its probably just a display error) I will test with an Advanced Hawkeye to verify just a text error in the customer database viewer.

(in reply to stilesw)
Post #: 5267
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/29/2019 4:13:28 PM   
zyc120c

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 4/20/2019
Status: offline
The #888 Sky Bow III is a muti-purpose surface to air missile.“The system is designed to engage different threats, including: aircrafts, cruise missiles, anti-radiation missiles, and short range tactical missiles.”-by its producer NCSIST.

But in the DB, its a single-purpose antiballistic missile. Besides, its target altitude is only 100k ft ASL- 80k ft ASL, makes its intercept PH far less than other ABM system.

Hope can be fix soon. Thanks!

(in reply to FTBSS)
Post #: 5268
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/30/2019 2:41:48 AM   
Tookatee

 

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Joined: 6/11/2019
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All variants of the Kfir (other than the C.7 variants) in the database erroneously have both the probe and boom refueling property. The #2228, #4746, and #2018 Kfir C.10's should only have the probe refueling property (as there is no receptacle for a refueling boom on the aircraft, only the prominent refueling probe as seen in the images below) while all other variants of the Kfir should not have any refueling properties as it only gained this ability with the refueling probe/receptacle system that was added onto the C.7 variant.

A top view of a Kfir C.10, showing its prominent fuel probe and no receptacle for a refueling boom.


Image of a Kfir C.10 in the middle of a mid-air refueling using the fuel probe on the aircraft.


Kfir C.2, note the lack of a refueling probe.


Sources: https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=152 , globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/kfir.htm , http://www.atacusa.com/f_21_kfir.html , https://www.fighter-planes.com/info/kfir.htm , and https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/kfir.htm

(in reply to zyc120c)
Post #: 5269
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/30/2019 3:38:51 AM   
Scorpion86

 

Posts: 197
Joined: 2/26/2017
Status: online
Hi there! I thought I might celebrate the release of CMO with my very first DB3K report since it released! And I decided to start witha very special plane, part of which is made in my country. I noticed the plane was missing the "K" in "KC-390", so I did some research and I came up with this report. Most of the information comes from the manufacturer's website, the info about the refueling system comes from that and the youtube video, both linked below.
And when you update, could you pretty please add the same plane to Portugal, IOC 2023? (:

#4013 – Embraer KC-390

- Sould be renamed as “Embraer KC-390 Millenium”.

- Has a SELEX Galileo Gabbiano T-20 tactical radar with “Spotlight Synthetic Aperture Radar, weather, air-to-air, navigation, air-to-ground and high resolution modes”.

- Has a self-protection suite: RWR, LWS, MAWS, DIRCM and chaff & flare dispenser by AEL Sistemas (a subsidiary of Elbit) of unknown model and capability.

- Should have a refueling probe.

- Should be capable of air-to-air refueling. AAR equipment includes:
2 x Cobham 912E Wing Air Refuelling Pod
2 x internal 2350 gallon (US, I presume) fuel tanks

- Can carry a Rafael Litening II targeting pod for Maritime Surveillance missions.

Source:
https://defense.embraer.com/global/en/c-390
https://www.cobham.com/mission-systems/air-to-air-refuelling/hose-and-drogue-systems/wing-air-refuelling-pods/kc-390-datasheet/docview/
http://www.i-a-e.com/pdf/V2500_E5_Product_Card_060716.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4g_EqE_9Oo
http://www.aiad.it/aiad_res/cms/documents/SELEXGALILEOGABBIANOSurveillanceRadarFamily.pdf
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2011-11-11/embraer-elbit-connection-grows-kc-390-and-uavs
http://www.passarodeferro.com/2019/11/kc-390-millennium-testa-sistemas-de.html

(in reply to Tookatee)
Post #: 5270
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/30/2019 3:58:35 PM   
serjames

 

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Joined: 2/21/2016
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#2182 - KP 166 Pilica [Pr.918M] doesn't have enough fuel 0.8tonnes listed with a usage of 0.9kg per Minute at 5knts

Gives it a very poor range Either the efficiency is far too low at that low speed or the capacity is not enough ?


(in reply to Scorpion86)
Post #: 5271
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/30/2019 5:26:10 PM   
CV60


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Nomenclature Correction SA-2b, DB3000
The following SA-2b facilities are identified as "SA-2b Guideline SA-75 Dvina)" (emphasis added). In DB3K, each of these facilities is equipped with the "FAN SONG C" illuminator.

However, according to Jane's Land Warfare Platforms: Artillery & Air Defence, "S-75 family" 30 July 2015, it was the SA-2c Guideline Mod 2 system that had the FAN SONG C illuminator. This system was designated the "S-75M Volkhov". This system had an IOC of 1961. In contrast, Jane's identifies the SA-2b GUIDELINE Mod 1 system as having the FAN SONG B illuminator. This system was designated the "SA-75 Desna". As far as I can tell, the S-75 Dvina system was the SA-2a GUIDELINE mod 0, and used the FAN SONG A illuminator. See also: https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Engagement-Fire-Control.html#mozTocId517282 and https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-75-Volkhov.html#mozTocId587506. Although I am not a fan of wikipedia as a source, it confirms this analysis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina

Facility_1296
Facility_1461
Facility_1774
Facility_46
Facility_1772
Facility_1773
Facility_1769
Facility_1506
Facility_1620
Facility_1384
Facility_1619


(in reply to serjames)
Post #: 5272
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 11/30/2019 8:18:41 PM   
PN79

 

Posts: 124
Joined: 1/3/2015
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I think you are only partially correct as SA-2 nomenclature is more complicated because public books use different lettering from those which is used in CIA’s declassified reports. To further increase confusion SA-2 are actually three different and incompatible systems with parallel development. Hence all the chaos about which version operates in which frequency.

So before any nomenclature change is done one must decide which nomenclature design wants to follow.

Variants overview:

Dvina Family
SA-75
missiles: V-750 (1D)
CIA designation: Fruit Set
CMO in game: SA-2a, Fan Song A

SA-75M
missiles: V-750 (1D), V-750V (11D)
CIA designation: Fan Song B
CMO in game (early Soviet): SA-2b, Fan Song B
CMO in game (others): SA-2b, Fan Song C


SA-75M (highly modernized variant but without specific designation)
missiles: V-750 (1D), V-750V (11D), V-750VMV (11DMV) // there were more minor versions
CIA designation: Fan Song F
CMO in game: missing (SA-2f is used for different variant)

General characteristic for all Dvina systems is operating band F (10 cm).

Desna Family
S-75
missiles: V-750VN (13D)
CIA designation: Fan Song C
CMO in game: actually there is SA-2c, Fan Song C but with wrong missiles and only for the USSR, other nations use incorrectly SA-2b with Fan Song C with V-750V (11D) missiles

General characteristic for Desna systems is operating band G (6 cm).

Volkhov Family
S-75M (later variants are S-75M1, M2)
missiles: V-755 (20D), for later variants V-755U (20DSU) plus nuclear V-760 (15D)
CIA designation: Fan Song E (CIA doesn’t use ‘D’ letter for any operational SA-2 variant)
CMO in game: there is SA-2d, Fan Song D with 20D missiles and SA-2d/e is used for nuclear equipped system

S-75M3
missiles: all Volkhov family missiles plus new V-759 (5Ya23) and nuclear V-760V (5V29)
CIA designation: Fan Song E (CIA doesn’t separate this variant from previous Volkhov systems)
CMO in game: SA-2f, Fan Song F

General characteristic for all Volkhov systems is operating band G (6 cm) and LORO tracking.


< Message edited by PN79 -- 11/30/2019 8:23:53 PM >

(in reply to CV60)
Post #: 5273
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 12/1/2019 10:25:02 AM   
Parel803

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 10/10/2019
From: Netherlands
Status: offline
Missing somme ship classes from the NL, operating in the Dutch Antilles:
Jaguar class (Damen Stan 4100), Dutch Caribean Coast Guard. 3 units in class.
Pelikaan, Dutch navy. Currently undergoing update in the Netherlands but stationed in the dutch caribean. 1 unit.

Do you want those added to the DB and if so, which information is required in what format?

with regards

(in reply to PN79)
Post #: 5274
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 12/1/2019 11:51:38 AM   
CV60


Posts: 818
Joined: 10/1/2012
Status: offline
quote:

I think you are only partially correct as SA-2 nomenclature is more complicated because public books use different lettering from those which is used in CIA’s declassified reports. To further increase confusion SA-2 are actually three different and incompatible systems with parallel development. Hence all the chaos about which version operates in which frequency.

So before any nomenclature change is done one must decide which nomenclature design wants to follow.

....


I agree that following a single nomenclature design is important. IMHO, the NATO designation SA-2a/b/c/d GUIDELINE is the best nomenclature to generally rely on, as it: 1) had widespread use; 2) it readily identifies the type and purpose of system (for example, GUIDLINE=a guided missile/SAM; FOXBAT= a fighter; BADGER=a bomber) and 3) identifies major modifications (for example a SA-2f is different and later modification than an SA-2b). Also, a lot of cold war soviet nomenclature was intended to be confusing, so as to confuse the western intelligence agencies. With that said, I believe that the naming convention should be not inconsistent with the USSR nomenclature. So (in my opinion) when the USSR system that incorporates the V-750M missile and the RSN-75 (FAN SONG C) illuminator and calls it the S-75M Volkhov, it is fine if CMO calls it the SA-2c GUIDELINE. It is also okay if CMO calls it the SA-2c GUIDELINE/S-75M Volkhov. However, it shouldn't be designated the "SA-2b Guideline SA-75 Dvina), as it currently is, as that is incorrect, as the Dvina system was the earlier SA-2a, and the SA-2b used the V-750VK and -VN missiles and the FAN SONG B radar. When I write the weapons/facility descriptions, I try to note alternative nomenclatures. However, the current CMO nomenclature for the GUIDELINE family is, I believe, incorrect. For reference, I am including a screen shot of a table from https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-75-Volkhov.html#mozTocId587506 that shows the various GUIDELINE configurations. I belive, based on my research (including using Jane's) that this table is accurate. See also https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Engagement-Fire-Control.html#mozTocId517282 for a discussion of the FAN SONG series of radars





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by CV60 -- 12/1/2019 11:58:47 AM >

(in reply to PN79)
Post #: 5275
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 12/1/2019 12:03:22 PM   
gosnold

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline
Please add the Russian Rezonans-NE fixed VHF radar:
http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/air-defence-systems/radar-and-electro-optical-equipment-for-air-target-detection/rezonans-ne/
Max range 600km against planes, 1100km in ABM mode.
Practical range against fighters 350km.
360° PESA scan.

In service in Russia(5x, https://tass.com/defense/1085054) , Algeria (2018, 1x, https://www.menadefense.net/algerie/rezonans-ne-un-radar-pour-voir-au-dela-de-lhorizon/), Iran (2014, 4x, locally built version, https://on5vl.org/radars-protegent/#iran) and Egypt (2019, 1x, https://www.uawire.org/russia-deploys-early-warning-radar-in-egypt)

See also https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/rezonans-n.htm

(in reply to Parel803)
Post #: 5276
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 12/1/2019 9:13:33 PM   
PN79

 

Posts: 124
Joined: 1/3/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CV60

I agree that following a single nomenclature design is important. IMHO, the NATO designation SA-2a/b/c/d GUIDELINE is the best nomenclature to generally rely on, as it: 1) had widespread use; 2) it readily identifies the type and purpose of system (for example, GUIDLINE=a guided missile/SAM; FOXBAT= a fighter; BADGER=a bomber) and 3) identifies major modifications (for example a SA-2f is different and later modification than an SA-2b). Also, a lot of cold war soviet nomenclature was intended to be confusing, so as to confuse the western intelligence agencies. With that said, I believe that the naming convention should be not inconsistent with the USSR nomenclature. So (in my opinion) when the USSR system that incorporates the V-750M missile and the RSN-75 (FAN SONG C) illuminator and calls it the S-75M Volkhov, it is fine if CMO calls it the SA-2c GUIDELINE. It is also okay if CMO calls it the SA-2c GUIDELINE/S-75M Volkhov. However, it shouldn't be designated the "SA-2b Guideline SA-75 Dvina), as it currently is, as that is incorrect, as the Dvina system was the earlier SA-2a, and the SA-2b used the V-750VK and -VN missiles and the FAN SONG B radar. When I write the weapons/facility descriptions, I try to note alternative nomenclatures. However, the current CMO nomenclature for the GUIDELINE family is, I believe, incorrect. For reference, I am including a screen shot of a table from https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-75-Volkhov.html#mozTocId587506 that shows the various GUIDELINE configurations. I belive, based on my research (including using Jane's) that this table is accurate. See also https://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Engagement-Fire-Control.html#mozTocId517282 for a discussion of the FAN SONG series of radars



I see. The issue with presented table is that is use same SA-2C designation for system equipped with 13D and 20D missiles and SA-2D for systems with 13DM/DA and 20DSU and 5Ya23 which is confusing as hell. Desna system with 13D missiles is different from Volkhov with 20D and 5Ya23. Furthermore it uses designation SA-2E for system with nuclear 15D missiles which doesn’t make sense as any late Soviet Volkhov system can launch 15D missile apart from standard 20D and late 5Ya23.

Currently in database CWDB v478 (I am using this one because DB3000 have less entries regarding earlier SA-2 variants) are these entries for Soviet SA-2:

# 708 – SAM Bn (SA-2a Guideline [S-75 Dvina]), 1957
- radar: Fan Song A (F band, early 60s)
- missile: V-750 (1D)
// I propose domestic name change to [SA-75 Dvina] and end year 1965 (estimate based on CIA and export data)

# 342 – SAM Bn (SA-2b Guideline [S-75 Dvina]), 1959
- radar: Fan Song B (F band, early 60s)
- missile: V-750V (11D)
// I propose domestic name change to [SA-75M Dvina] and starting year change to 1958 and end year 1968 (estimate based on CIA data)

# 365 – SAM Bn (SA-2b Guideline [S-75 Dvina]), 1965-1991
- radar: Fan Song C (G Band, late 60s)
- missile: V-750V (11D)
// This is probably understand as modernized Dvina system which is actually designated by CIA as Fan Song F and furthermore CIA reports that this is export only solution as by second half of 1960s all Dvina systems were disbanded in the USSR.
// Because this entry here is redundant I propose to change it to different variant this way:
SAM Bn (SA-2e Guideline [S-75M Volkhov]), 1961
- radar: Fan Song E1 (G Band, early 70s)
- missile: V-755 (20D)
// This would represent the first variant of Volkhov system in service. The radar I would rename from ‘Fan Song E’ to ‘Fan Song E1’.

# 709 – SAM Bn (SA-2c Guideline [S-75 Dvina]), 1961
- radar: Fan Song C (G Band, late 60s)
- missile: V-750VN (13D)
// I propose domestic name change to [S-75 Desna] and starting year change to 1959. Fan Song C should be made incompatible with all other missiles apart of 13D.

# 354 – SAM Bn (SA-2d/e Guideline [S-75 Dvina]), 1965-1991, Nuclear
- radar: Fan Song E (G Band, early 70s)
- SA-2 TV Camera
- missiles: V-755 (20D) and V-760 (15E, Nuclear)
// This I propose to change to middle era Volkhov this way:
SAM Bn (SA-2e Guideline [S-75M1 Volkhov]), 1964
- radar: Fan Song E1 (G Band, early 70s)
- missiles: V-755 (20D) and V-760 (15D, Nuclear)
// This would thus mainly remove SA-2 TV Camera which was installed only from 1983. The nuclear missile should be renamed to 15D (from 15E).

# 318 – SAM Bn (SA-2f Guideline [S-75M Volkhov]), 1976-1991
- radar: Fan Song F (G Band, late 70s)
- SA-2 TV Camera
- missiles: V-759 (5YA23) and V-760V (5V29, Nuclear)
// This entry is clearly understand as last SA-2 variant. But because the ‘F’ letter is actually used by US Air Force for modernization of early SA-2 Dvina variant I would change it this way:
SAM Bn (SA-2e Guideline [S-75M3 Volkhov]), 1975-1991
- radar: Fan Song E2 (G Band, late 70s)
- missiles: V-759 (5Ya23) and V-760V (5V29, Nuclear)
// Fan Song E2 would be just renamed Fan Song F plus made compatible with 20D and 15D. The missile name should be corrected to 5Ya23 (from 5YA23).

Further I would add two variants of Volkhov to finish this family:

SAM Bn (SA-2e Guideline [S-75M2 Volkhov]), 1971
- radar: Fan Song E1 (G Band, early 70s)
- missiles: V-759 (5Ya23)
// that is second middle era Volkhov with early Fan Song E1 compatible with 5Ya23 missile.

SAM Bn (SA-2e Guideline [S-75M3 Volkhov]), 1983-1991
- radar: Fan Song E2 (G Band, late 70s)
- SA-2 TV Camera
- missiles: V-759 (5Ya23) and V-760V (5V29, Nuclear)
// Finally with that SA-2 TV Camera.


Now regarding export to other countries I have these data (first export year and number of total delivered systems):

SA-2a Guideline [SA-75 Dvina] with Fan Song A and V-750 (1D)
China – 1958, 5x
Albania – 1959, 1x
Bulgaria – 1959, 5x
Czechoslovakia – 1959, 1x
East Germany – 1959, 1x
Hungary – 1959, 1x
Poland – 1959, 1x
Romania – 1959, 1x
(Vietnam also received SA-2a in 1965, 4x but only with later V-750V (11D) so probably not worth adding.)

SA-2b Guideline [SA-75M Dvina] with Fan Song B and V-750V (11D)
Hungary – 1960, 13x
Bulgaria – 1961, 14x, Fan Song B delivered in 1960 but V-750V (11D) in 1961
Czechoslovakia – 1961, 15x, Fan Song B delivered in 1960 but V-750V (11D) in 1961
East Germany – 1961, 19x, Fan Song B delivered in 1960 but V-750V (11D) in 1961
Poland – 1961, 16x, Fan Song B delivered in 1960 but V-750V (11D) in 1961
Romania – 1961, 9x
Egypt – 1962, 47x
Indonesia – 1962, 7x
Iraq – 1962, 1x
North Korea – 1962, 38x
Yugoslavia – 1962, 4x
Afghanistan – 1963, 3x
Cuba – 1963, 24x
India – 1963, 20x
Vietnam – 1965, 78x
Algeria – 1967, 2x
Syria – 1968, 6x
Somalia – 1973, 7x
Sudan – 1973, 3x
South Yemen – 1977, 4x

From late 1960s/early 1970s export users of SA-2b have modernized this system to SA-2f with Fan Song F which should be F Band, late 60s with V-750V (11D) missiles or upgraded V-750VMV (11DMV).

SA-2c Guideline [S-75 Desna] with Fan Song C and V-750VN (13D)
Egypt – 1970, 32x

SA-2e Guideline [S-75M Volkhov] with Fan Song E1 / Fan Song E2 and V-755 (20D) / V-759 (5Ya23)
Czechoslovakia – 1964, 18x, Fan Song E2 with V-759 (5Ya23) from 1983
East Germany – 1964, 29x, Fan Song E2 with V-759 (5Ya23) from 1983
Mongolia – 1964, 2x, V-759 (5Ya23) from 1989 but only with Fan Song E1
Poland – 1964, 26x, V-759 (5Ya23) from 1987 but only with Fan Song E1
Romania – 1964, 31x, Fan Song E2 with V-759 (5Ya23) from 1983
Yugoslavia – 1966, 4x, V-759 (5Ya23) from 1990 but only with Fan Song E1
Bulgaria – 1969, 10x, Fan Song E2 from 1983, missile V-759 (5Ya23) from 1985
Egypt – 1973, 8x
Syria – 1973, 52x, Fan Song E2 with V-759 (5Ya23) from 1983
Iraq – 1974, 35x, Fan Song E2 with V-759 (5Ya23) from 1984
Libya – 1975, 39x, Fan Song E2 with V-759 (5Ya23) from 1984
Hungary – 1977, 13x, Fan Song E2 with V-759 (5Ya23) from 1983
Ethiopia – 1978, 7x, Fan Song E2 with V-759 (5Ya23) from 1985
Vietnam – 1979, 36x, Fan Song E2 with V-759 (5Ya23) from 1985
North Yemen – 1980, 15x
Cuba – 1981, 18x, Fan Song E2 from 1983, missile V-759 (5Ya23) from 1984
Angola – 1984, 7x, only Fan Song E2 with V-759 (5Ya23)
Mozambique – 1986, 3x, only Fan Song E2 with V-759 (5Ya23)
North Korea – 1986, 3x, only Fan Song E2 with V-759 (5Ya23)
South Yemen – 1987, 3x, only Fan Song E2 with V-759 (5Ya23)


Sorry for lengthy post.



< Message edited by PN79 -- 12/1/2019 9:24:17 PM >

(in reply to CV60)
Post #: 5277
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 12/2/2019 1:07:24 PM   
LORDPrometheus

 

Posts: 92
Joined: 1/8/2018
Status: offline
I have been advocating for the Tu-22M series having AS-16 Kickbacks since I started with CMANO years ago now. However this change has not yet been made and I know it is because my previous posts on the topic did not have adequate sources. That changes today. I present to you a rotary launcher in the bomb bay of a Tu-22M carrying 6x AS-16 Kickbacks internally and 2 AS-4 Kitchens simultaneously.



We can be certain this is a Tu-22M and not a Tu-95 or Tu-160 for 3 reasons.

1. The Tu-95 bomb bay has longer bay doors without visible hydraulic pistons as seen in this image

2. The Tu-160 does not feature external stowage of weapons

3. The fact that we can see the externally stowed weapons and that their height is abour in line with the lower level of the bomb bay indicates it cannot be a Tu-95 which stores it's external missiles more forward and up.

Nnow that we have some evidence that the AS-16 is used on the backfire here are the loadouts I suggest including suggested fixes for the AS-16 which is missing 2 major conventional variants in the game. From here on (N) denotes nuclear)

1: 6x AS-16 (N) + 2x AS-4 Kitchen ac Mod 3 (N)
2. 10x AS-16 (N) (this loadout uses the ability to place 2 AS-16s on each external point)
3. 10x Kh-15P (conventional warhead anti radiation version)
4. 6x Kh-15S (conventional anti shipping AS-16) + 2x AS-4 Kitchen-D (Kh-32)
5: 10x Kh-15S


(in reply to PN79)
Post #: 5278
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 12/2/2019 1:17:34 PM   
CV60


Posts: 818
Joined: 10/1/2012
Status: offline
quote:


I see. The issue with presented table is that is use same SA-2C designation for system equipped with 13D and 20D missiles and SA-2D for systems with 13DM/DA and 20DSU and 5Ya23 which is confusing as hell. Desna system with 13D missiles is different from Volkhov with 20D and 5Ya23. Furthermore it uses designation SA-2E for system with nuclear 15D missiles which doesn’t make sense as any late Soviet Volkhov system can launch 15D missile apart from standard 20D and late 5Ya23.

Currently in database CWDB v478 (I am using this one because DB3000 have less entries regarding earlier SA-2 variants) are these entries for Soviet SA-2:


Over then ext couple of days, I'll see what I can come up with to verify your suggested edits. I agree that the SA-2 GUIDELINE database entries need to be revised, and it is a serious historical accuracy issue. I'll also try to cover the CWDB database

(in reply to PN79)
Post #: 5279
RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues - 12/2/2019 1:49:35 PM   
orca

 

Posts: 432
Joined: 11/6/2013
Status: offline
I’ve also read about a Tu-22M 3x AS-4 loadout but have not been able to find pictures. Have you seen pictures of this?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LORDPrometheus

I have been advocating for the Tu-22M series having AS-16 Kickbacks since I started with CMANO years ago now. However this change has not yet been made and I know it is because my previous posts on the topic did not have adequate sources. That changes today. I present to you a rotary launcher in the bomb bay of a Tu-22M carrying 6x AS-16 Kickbacks internally and 2 AS-4 Kitchens simultaneously.



We can be certain this is a Tu-22M and not a Tu-95 or Tu-160 for 3 reasons.

1. The Tu-95 bomb bay has longer bay doors without visible hydraulic pistons as seen in this image

2. The Tu-160 does not feature external stowage of weapons

3. The fact that we can see the externally stowed weapons and that their height is abour in line with the lower level of the bomb bay indicates it cannot be a Tu-95 which stores it's external missiles more forward and up.

Nnow that we have some evidence that the AS-16 is used on the backfire here are the loadouts I suggest including suggested fixes for the AS-16 which is missing 2 major conventional variants in the game. From here on (N) denotes nuclear)

1: 6x AS-16 (N) + 2x AS-4 Kitchen ac Mod 3 (N)
2. 10x AS-16 (N) (this loadout uses the ability to place 2 AS-16s on each external point)
3. 10x Kh-15P (conventional warhead anti radiation version)
4. 6x Kh-15S (conventional anti shipping AS-16) + 2x AS-4 Kitchen-D (Kh-32)
5: 10x Kh-15S




(in reply to LORDPrometheus)
Post #: 5280
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