Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

1D10 versus 2D10

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> 1D10 versus 2D10 Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/23/2013 8:14:46 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3050
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline
Can someone please explain why one should be used over the other?
Post #: 1
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/23/2013 8:21:25 PM   
obermeister


Posts: 74
Joined: 4/24/2009
Status: offline
If you play all the add-in units like artillery and divisions, 2D10 is better. 1D10 otherwise is really easy on the attacker, who always brings some junk divisions to sacrifice as losses. I think there is something of a consensus among super-deluxe players around 2D10

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 2
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/23/2013 8:35:17 PM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

Posts: 585
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline
2D10 is more "realistic". You get bonuses for things like massing your armor, it makes groundstrikes more powerful compared to 1D10, and the advent of an attacker result for half the units flipping means that offensives tend to peter out gradually. It's also considerably bloodier than 1D10. Terrain bonuses are more important, and raw power slightly less so.

Furthermore, it's far more deterministic. 1D10 gives you a 10% chance to crack Paris with 3 guys guarding it on a 3:2 attack, and a 10% chance for a 6:1 blitz to fall on its face with a attacker's loss and everyone flipping. 2D10, since two rolls will tend towards the mean, is much more deterministic, much more predictable.


This isn't a popular opinion, but I actually like the randomness of 1D10, I find it makes attackers in general have to be a bit more cautious about the risks they're taking. Most people prefer 2d10, IMO, because it's more predictable on the individual combat, and thus and more fitting of a grand strategy game.

I also don't like a few of the strategic consequences of 2d10. I've never once a "historical" barbarossa (M/J 41, Soviet army at the border) end in anything less than utter annihilation for the Soviets under 2D10; under 1D10, it's still bad, but not quite as horrific; and I mean the Soviets did win that war, eventually, and I think the WiF player ought to as well.


So I slightly prefer 1D10, but most people like 2D10. If there were some way to merge the tactical consideration given by 2D10 (to get you to mass your armor in the open, defend the cities, etc) with the higher stakes nature of 1D10, it'd be perfect, in my opinion.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 3
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/23/2013 8:46:26 PM   
Orm


Posts: 19463
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
I prefer the 1d10 table as well. And I think that the blitz optional rule improves the 1d10 table even more. The blitz option gives an advantage to mass armor in clear or desert terrain in fine weather.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Ur_Vile_WEdge)
Post #: 4
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/23/2013 10:07:29 PM   
petracelli

 

Posts: 106
Joined: 10/28/2003
From: Herts UK
Status: offline
Hi

Have been playing wif for a long time and would highly recommend 2d10 particularly if you are playing with all the additional units. It provides the attacker with advantages which means the Germans have a chance or recreating their early war advances giving they can mass their armour and have a very good chance of flipping the defending units.

1d10 games are by comparison no where near as fluid and indeed if the German player is unlucky they struggle to get through Belguim.

Would recommend 2d10 to the extent that I would not play a game with 1d10.

Cheers

Phil

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 5
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/23/2013 10:18:07 PM   
Orm


Posts: 19463
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: petracelli

Hi

Have been playing wif for a long time and would highly recommend 2d10 particularly if you are playing with all the additional units. It provides the attacker with advantages which means the Germans have a chance or recreating their early war advances giving they can mass their armour and have a very good chance of flipping the defending units.

1d10 games are by comparison no where near as fluid and indeed if the German player is unlucky they struggle to get through Belguim.

Would recommend 2d10 to the extent that I would not play a game with 1d10.

Cheers

Phil

Have you tried 1d10 with the blitz option?

I agree with you that with the 1d10 that the battle of France can become a slugging match. But at the same time I feel that the 2d10 table is to powerful in USSR 1941. Therefore I prefer playing with the blitz option and the 1d10 table.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to petracelli)
Post #: 6
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/23/2013 10:20:23 PM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
I also play with 2D10 and will not go back to the older 1D10 which I did play with for many years until 2D10 came out.

(in reply to petracelli)
Post #: 7
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/23/2013 10:30:01 PM   
SLAAKMAN


Posts: 2810
Joined: 7/24/2002
Status: offline
quote:

1D10 versus 2D10

1D10 is newb like Silly Warspite2&Chickenboy-Newblettes, 2D10 is pro. I choose 2D10.


_____________________________

Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
— Winston Churchill

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 8
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/23/2013 10:36:37 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4628
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
the most important different

is the the extreme results are rare on 2d10 .. the chance of rolling 2 or 20 is only 1%


with 1d10 you have a 10 % risk of rolling a 1 ....

< Message edited by michaelbaldur -- 9/23/2013 11:39:29 PM >


_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to SLAAKMAN)
Post #: 9
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/23/2013 10:58:57 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3050
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline
That settles it for me as I will certainly be using the 2D10 as I would not want any chance of being impotnent

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 10
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/23/2013 11:39:51 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4628
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline

to late for you

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 11
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/23/2013 11:42:28 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3050
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline
How did you know?

(in reply to michaelbaldur)
Post #: 12
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/24/2013 4:24:27 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2939
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
It's "too", people..."too"

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 13
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/24/2013 4:36:51 AM   
Neilster


Posts: 2939
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline
I haven't played with 2D10 but as it gives a distribution with more average results, I'd be inclined to prefer it. Weird results are possible but rare.

Actually, a 3D10 table would be good. It's gives a reasonable approximation of the Normal distribution without ridiculous complexity.

Cheers, Neilster




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Neilster -- 9/24/2013 4:41:06 AM >

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 14
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/24/2013 4:51:59 AM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
A 3D10 table with some additional decision-making (attacker vs. defender combat cards) is part of the 2008 annual (it's a component of Factories in Flames).

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 15
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/24/2013 6:33:54 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7925
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
1D10 with Blitz Boni is not that different than 2D10. Without Blitz Boni 1D10 should only be used in what is known as "Classic" wherein you don't play with guns and divisions and so hexes only have two units stacked in them, maximum.

1D10 without Blitz Boni and with guns and divisions is like replaying WWI.

Personally I prefer 1D10 with Blitz Boni over 2D10 because as an attacker you can "guarantee" an attack at lower odds than with 2D10. Mind you they still have to be good odds like a 5 to 1 up3 Assault ("up3" meaning all 3 defenders are already flipped). The same attack in 2D10 has a 6% chance of failing.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 9/24/2013 7:10:39 AM >


_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 16
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/24/2013 9:49:50 AM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2192
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline
I never play with 2D10 if I can avoid it. I did play with it for some time. But discovered that 1d10 with the blitz option is the way to go. It's much faster for players to calculate the modifiers.

_____________________________

"'Malta - The Thorn in Rommel's Side"

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 17
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/24/2013 1:14:47 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8422
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

I never play with 2D10 if I can avoid it. I did play with it for some time. But discovered that 1d10 with the blitz option is the way to go. It's much faster for players to calculate the modifiers.


True, about the calculations. However, now MWIF is around and makes those calculations for you, 2D10 is going to it for me.

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 18
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/24/2013 4:46:43 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
I like 2d10 (my Dungeons & Dragons heritage is showing here) because while there's a little bit more fiddling with number bonuses, it's still less cognitive work overall, at least IMO.

1d10 you have to know and manipulate die roll modifers and odds ratios (each permitted odds ratio has its own results column).

2d10 you just need to know die roll modifers (because a change in odds ratio just adds or subtracts modifiers).

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 19
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/24/2013 6:53:12 PM   
petracelli

 

Posts: 106
Joined: 10/28/2003
From: Herts UK
Status: offline
2d10 has less extreme luck than the 1d10 and trust me makes for a much better game a d there are ways of defending against a 41 barb for Russia, which is build all their own arm mech and at guns. All their ftrs to make it difficult for Germany to flip and get the Wallies to put real pressure on Italy.

Phil

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 20
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/24/2013 6:55:42 PM   
Orm


Posts: 19463
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: petracelli

2d10 has less extreme luck than the 1d10 and trust me makes for a much better game a d there are ways of defending against a 41 barb for Russia, which is build all their own arm mech and at guns. All their ftrs to make it difficult for Germany to flip and get the Wallies to put real pressure on Italy.

Phil

To me 2d10 is more extreme luck. Rolling 18 on that low odds attack or 3 on the high odds assault just annoys me.

< Message edited by Orm -- 9/24/2013 6:58:50 PM >


_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to petracelli)
Post #: 21
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/24/2013 9:43:59 PM   
paulderynck


Posts: 7925
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
I agree 2D10 has more extremes. In 1D10 there may be a 10% chance of something bad happening, but in 2D10 (at higher odds) it might only be a 1% chance. So if you roll the bad result, it seems like it was far more unlucky.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 22
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/25/2013 3:45:58 AM   
mjjcpa

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 9/20/2013
From: New York, USA
Status: offline
The 2d10 is a sharper double edge sword imho.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 23
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/25/2013 5:03:38 AM   
Snydly


Posts: 46
Joined: 10/4/2006
Status: offline
Where is the option for 1D6 ... like the good ole days in Version 4 of WiF .

Now that lead to some very ... my 'offensive is over type of results' when you rolled two or three 1's invading Russia.

_____________________________

Looking forward to playing my favorite board game WIF on the computer.

(in reply to mjjcpa)
Post #: 24
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/25/2013 8:31:53 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8422
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I agree 2D10 has more extremes. In 1D10 there may be a 10% chance of something bad happening, but in 2D10 (at higher odds) it might only be a 1% chance. So if you roll the bad result, it seems like it was far more unlucky.


However, I like that. I always say to myself when that happens, that the intelligence community didn't do a good job: "you guys form intell said that there was only a MIL in Arnhem. However, you got my CW Para dropping on a couple of SS Panzerdivisions, so it got killed...".
2D10 simulates a kind of Fog of War with the odd very bad or very good result happening...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 25
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 9/25/2013 8:36:41 PM   
composer99


Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
"you guys form intell said that there was only a MIL in Arnhem. However, you got my CW Para dropping on a couple of SS Panzerdivisions, so it got killed...".


Heh heh heh

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 26
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 10/28/2013 8:44:58 AM   
chris3863

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
I'm not a huge fan of the 2d10 because the modifiers are subject to gamey abuse. For example want to take Leningrad? Attack in the winter with a bunch of Finns and mtn units and just blow any defense away with the modifiers no matter how poor the odds are. Also with 2d10 it is complete suicide to defend in anything other than mtns and cities. Nothing is more discouraging than watching the 1st SS (12-5) a 9-4 infantry and the GD division get blown away in a 1-1 attack in France like they were never there. That attack would never have been made with the 1d10.

In fairness, if you want a really fast paced bloody game, the 2d10 is for you. The defenders are like a Stark at the Red Wedding; dead. I just feel that a well prepared defense should not be so easy to blow away but I don't feel so strongly that I would refuse to play with 2d10, I just prefer 1d10.

_____________________________

l'audace, l'audace toujour l'audace

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 27
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 10/28/2013 5:15:08 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3131
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline
the mods on 2d10 cut both ways. defend Leningrad with 2 white-print / elite and the engineer divesion. With a reserve ski division ready to ski in across the lake, or a ski or mountain division ready to be airlifted in at night to replace losses. still a very tough hex to take. Or put Koniev HQ and some oil in there for an extra -2 with HQ Support.

(in reply to chris3863)
Post #: 28
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 10/29/2013 9:20:55 PM   
gridley

 

Posts: 124
Joined: 10/2/2006
From: Caledon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Snydly

Where is the option for 1D6 ... like the good ole days in Version 4 of WiF .

Now that lead to some very ... my 'offensive is over type of results' when you rolled two or three 1's invading Russia.


My wall still has dents from the 6 sided die...that truly was an unforgiving table.

Even the Naval table back then was brutal...I remember once the Japanese player rolled like, 4 six's and 2 fives...bye bye US Navy. The US player immediately started to calculate the odds for such a roll. It was funny to watch, took him a while to joke about it though...

< Message edited by gridley -- 10/29/2013 9:25:08 PM >

(in reply to Snydly)
Post #: 29
RE: 1D10 versus 2D10 - 10/30/2013 12:13:29 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3131
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I agree 2D10 has more extremes. In 1D10 there may be a 10% chance of something bad happening, but in 2D10 (at higher odds) it might only be a 1% chance. So if you roll the bad result, it seems like it was far more unlucky.


there are two kinds of "extreme luck" - rolling a 2 attacking on the 2d10, or rolling a 1 twice in a row attacking on the 1d10. Which would you rather experience?

I will probably never play 1d10 ever again, even solitaire with MWiF. 2d10 smooths the results better, and lets operational tactics (skill) into the game much more.

(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> 1D10 versus 2D10 Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.164