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Don’t buy this game if….. - 9/21/2013 11:38:46 AM   
warspite1


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Here are just a couple of (well-meaning and hopefully helpful) observations to try and avoid disappointment if you buy the game and it does not match up to what you are expecting (we’ve all done that right?).

Firstly, this is most definitely NOT a beer and pretzels game. If you think/hope that this is a game that you are likely to be able to plug in and play without a reasonable amount of reading of the rules and/or following the tutorials, then this is not for you. Matrix World in Flames is a faithful reproduction of Australian Design Group’s award winning board game and not a made-for-computer game. A lot of the rules and concepts are different even to many board wargames – the naval rules in particular. I hope this forum will prove the equal of the WITP-AE forum and will be a helpful, friendly place where grognards will be on hand to assist newbies in learning the rules, but even so, this game WILL take some time and effort to learn.

Secondly, one of the (many) great things about this game is the fact that you get to command all those great units from WWII (and many what-if units too). Anyone casting a casual glance at the screenshots and seeing all the superb full colour camouflage, named aircraft and the individual ship counters may be forgiven for thinking that the orders of battle and the counter factors are 100% historically accurate. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. This is not War in the Pacific – Admirals Edition or War in the East. So to avoid comments like “This game is borked!” and complaints such as “x should have a better attack factor than y” and “a was not launched until xxxx” I just want to make this clear to those who have never played the game. This is a strategic level game and there are some liberties taken for play balance purposes and that ensure this game is FUN. That said, there is nothing that is really off the wall.

So why would you buy this game?

No idea what the cost will be, but regardless, World in Flames is incredible value. There are some key concepts that mean replayability is almost limitless and in terms of cost vs playing time, this should be minimal e.g.

- A player is not guaranteed his starting forces (units are drawn randomly from the force pools).

- Start positions are at the player’s discretion (no fixed positions that players can exploit by perfecting guaranteed attacks against).

- The game employs a basic rules framework that means that while each game has a World War II “feel”, apart from a limited number of restrictions e.g. Germany must invade Poland first impulse, the Commonwealth and France must declare war on Germany in the next impulse etc, each player is free to employ a wide range of tactics. Fancy taking out Spain? Turkey? Sweden? Then you can…. or at least can try. America will come into the war - that is certain…but when? Each player’s actions will affect the date of entry and benefits have to be weighed up against the costs.

- While, as mentioned above, this is not true in the minutest of detail, broadly each player will take command of the forces that his/her country/side had, the problems that they were faced with, and that need to be managed. E.g. Germany has a large army, its best units are extremely powerful, but there are a lot of lesser units and movement allowances are less for these than the bulk of their more mechanised British and American counterparts. The Commonwealth has a large navy (although much of this is WWI vintage) and the Royal Navy has tons to do to keep the sea lanes open for their convoys.

- Although there is lots to learn and this is a monster game, one huge positive is that there is little in terms of the more tedious aspects of micro-management to worry about*. The vast majority of tasks you are employed to undertake are interesting elements, whether it be deciding your strategic goals, what to build, placing reinforcements, choosing what to attack, where, with what, or weighing up the political consequences of your choices.

- In summary then, this is a hugely fun, engrossing, addictive, strategic level, monster game that allows each player to take command of broadly historical armies, navies and airforces that took part in World War II.

*For the avoidance of doubt this is not a criticism of those who like that.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805


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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 9/21/2013 12:06:34 PM   
lecrop


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Agree 100%

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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 9/21/2013 12:59:29 PM   
Centuur


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I've always found WiF to be very addictive when a game was underway. I always wanted to look at the map (the game was in my spare bedroom, when I was still without wife and kid) between group sessions. Always calculating, looking for fun things to exploit, planning and throwing plans in the waste basket after finding out that the other side has got things in a better order than I thought...

As a beta tester I also find that MWIF is addictive. When I've started the game for testing, I don't want to stop...

I agree however on the point made by Warspite: be prepared to spend some time going through the tutorials (and that also applies to WiF players, because the commands are quite extensive) before you jump into the fun (and fun it will be, as soon as you know what you are doing). Learning how things works need to be done (with some patience too...).

After that, I think I would guarantee every buyer that they will have a lot of fun, whether playing on the Net, Hot Seat or solitaire (yes, this game is so large, that even when playing solitair, you make mistakes that you will see in the other sides turn and will exploit...).



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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 9/21/2013 3:45:31 PM   
bo

 

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Damn Warspite every word you said was sitting on my computer to be put in a post called
"Don't buy this game if.... Did you somehow break into my computer and steal my thoughts For Shame.

Well said warspite I hope posters listen to you. To me at least the game is brilliant and will not be sitting on that shelf over my computer in a bin labled "old used boring non-replayable games" that I wasted my Euros on, or whatever the money was called back then.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 9/21/2013 10:04:13 PM >

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 4
RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 9/23/2013 5:27:35 AM   
battlevonwar


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Warspite, thank you for the summary. I read it fairly thoroughly and I have followed the release of World in Flames for the PC as it has slowly progressed for many years. If I may ask some questions that you or others in the community might share:

1. I have only played A&A Board Game via PBEM back in the early 90s... I have zero experience other than old risk. Does this mean that there will be no PC like feel to this game as I am very use to all the 80s to date Grand Strategy War Games... I.E. SSI to HOI and I enjoyed each one for their flavour, character and what not! What I'm primarily concerned with here, does this game immerse one in a board game or a war game?

2. I read this on the forums... will this game encompass more than just 2 players? That would be completely dull, as I think the majority of the fun would be the diverse and dedicated group of players involved in geopolitics rather than 2 guys headbanging. Also adding a huge dynamic. i.e. Japan isn't always interested in what Germany is doing, neither is the USSR always interested in what the UK is doing.

3. How complex is the learning curb? 2 weeks, 2 months?

(in reply to warspite1)
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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 9/23/2013 5:44:16 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

Warspite, thank you for the summary. I read it fairly thoroughly and I have followed the release of World in Flames for the PC as it has slowly progressed for many years. If I may ask some questions that you or others in the community might share:

1. I have only played A&A Board Game via PBEM back in the early 90s... I have zero experience other than old risk. Does this mean that there will be no PC like feel to this game as I am very use to all the 80s to date Grand Strategy War Games... I.E. SSI to HOI and I enjoyed each one for their flavour, character and what not! What I'm primarily concerned with here, does this game immerse one in a board game or a war game?

2. I read this on the forums... will this game encompass more than just 2 players? That would be completely dull, as I think the majority of the fun would be the diverse and dedicated group of players involved in geopolitics rather than 2 guys headbanging. Also adding a huge dynamic. i.e. Japan isn't always interested in what Germany is doing, neither is the USSR always interested in what the UK is doing.

3. How complex is the learning curb? 2 weeks, 2 months?
warspite1

1. battlevonwar I am not sure I understand the difference, but this is 100% a war game - and a fun one at that. Difficult to get into - I grant you - but all the more enjoyable once you do.

2. Ultimately the plan is to allow multiple players - 6 I think - but initially it will be two. However, while more players is probably great fun, I have only played WIF in a 1 v 1 mode and believe me, this is brilliant. The main reason is that whatever side you play, you get to command huge armies (Germany or the Soviets) and huge navies (CW/USA or Japan). So even if we are limited to 2 players for a while, I do not see that as an issue.

3. The learning curve? How long is a piece of string. I guess this depends on the player, his/her intelligence and how much time they are prepared to spend learning etc.

Rest assured I am hardly the sharpest tool in the box and even I understood the rule book ultimately! With MWIF it should be easier as you have the rules, the tutorials and a forum full of people who I am sure will be only too pleased to assist.


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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 9/23/2013 5:56:55 AM   
brian brian

 

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Don't buy this game if you are unwilling to accept ... limits.

The game simulates the decision making at the very highest level. You can't do everything with all the counters, simultaneously. WWII leaders became frustrated at what they couldn't do when they wanted to....you might as well. The up side to this is that your opponent has to operate under the same limits as you do.

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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 9/23/2013 1:22:11 PM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Don't buy this game if you are unwilling to accept ... limits.

The game simulates the decision making at the very highest level. You can't do everything with all the counters, simultaneously. WWII leaders became frustrated at what they couldn't do when they wanted to....you might as well. The up side to this is that your opponent has to operate under the same limits as you do.


+1

This is a good point.

Choosing which type of impulse (Land, Sea or combined) to use is a core of the game and for most positions, no matter what you pick, there will be a number of units you can't do anything with, even though you have all sorts of opportunities if you just could move those units.

(in reply to brian brian)
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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 9/23/2013 3:18:12 PM   
skrewball


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As a LONG time Matrix Aficionado, Avalon Hill lover and owner of WITP:AE plus other granular micro-management games (Dwarf Fortress anyone?), I have been watching this development for a long time, even though I have NEVER played WiF.

However, I desperately want this game because it's NOT WITP. Sometimes those people who crave detail and micromanagement just want a game-lite of that. And I see WiF as that. I think many people who come to this forum are aware what is being brought to the table here.

Now all I have left to ask is, when can I give you my money? :D

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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 9/23/2013 4:47:57 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: skrewball

As a LONG time Matrix Aficionado, Avalon Hill lover and owner of WITP:AE plus other granular micro-management games (Dwarf Fortress anyone?), I have been watching this development for a long time, even though I have NEVER played WiF.

However, I desperately want this game because it's NOT WITP. Sometimes those people who crave detail and micromanagement just want a game-lite of that. And I see WiF as that. I think many people who come to this forum are aware what is being brought to the table here.

Now all I have left to ask is, when can I give you my money? :D

November 7th is the release date.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 9/25/2013 8:02:32 PM   
warspite1


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Bump

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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/4/2013 6:57:56 PM   
warspite1


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Bump

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Post #: 12
RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/4/2013 8:49:24 PM   
Orm


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This is a very bumpy thread.

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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/4/2013 9:01:05 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

This is a very bumpy thread.
warspite1

Indeed so - Kirk's post earlier confirms it remains current though.


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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/9/2013 9:46:32 AM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

This is a very bumpy thread.

Its all the speed humps the game has traversed over the last 68 years.

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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 7:26:29 AM   
rodney727


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I bought the basic game in 1994 at hobby town and it still has the 59.99 price tag on it. I want to buy this game . However with no A.i it's solo or multi player only?. Also will this game have all the expansions in it? How many counters will be in this game? Will the Manual come in ereader form?

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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 1:36:23 PM   
composer99


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To the best of my knowledge:

MWiF is shipping out with solitaire, hot seat (single-computer multiplayer) and netplay (multiplayer over internet) capability, and will eventually have PBEM capability as well.

MWiF has most expansion kits for WiF that are WiF-only - it doesn't have America in Flames, or Patton in Flames, for example. Apart from errata it also does not have any new material from the 2008 annual on (e.g. so also no Khaki in Flames - the new kit that swaps out the dark blue CW counters for khaki and adds some more new units).

I do not know about the manual format other than it being shipped as PDF and as hardcopy.

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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 1:38:01 PM   
Joseignacio


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¿Multiplayer will be only for 2 players?

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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 2:41:31 PM   
Doggie3


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Will it be available as a digital download? The "When" thread seems to indicate a download size but the Wargamer interview seemed to indicate a physical shipment only?

Cheers,

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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 3:21:17 PM   
Ur_Vile_WEdge

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

To the best of my knowledge:

MWiF is shipping out with solitaire, hot seat (single-computer multiplayer) and netplay (multiplayer over internet) capability, and will eventually have PBEM capability as well.



I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere, but why is PBEM a feature that will be added later? There are so many interlocking decisions in a normal game of WiF, such as when you get naval interceptions, or the stroke and counter-stroke of committing air units to support and intercept over a land battle, that having to wait for input after each and every one of them will mean a game will take forever and a day.

(in reply to composer99)
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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 3:48:02 PM   
composer99


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quote:

I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere, but why is PBEM a feature that will be added later? There are so many interlocking decisions in a normal game of WiF, such as when you get naval interceptions, or the stroke and counter-stroke of committing air units to support and intercept over a land battle, that having to wait for input after each and every one of them will mean a game will take forever and a day.


As a beta tester I would have to say it is beyond my pay grade, so to speak, to conjecture on why a feature is in/not in the initial release before the game is released and I have bought a copy.

Having played WiF once by email using one of the freeware PBEM utilities (Cyberboard), I can say that PBEM games of WiF require a lot of back-and-forth email; on that basis, I would expect a similar situation would be the case for MWiF.

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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 4:16:47 PM   
rodney727


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From: Iowa
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Thank you!
quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

To the best of my knowledge:

MWiF is shipping out with solitaire, hot seat (single-computer multiplayer) and netplay (multiplayer over internet) capability, and will eventually have PBEM capability as well.

MWiF has most expansion kits for WiF that are WiF-only - it doesn't have America in Flames, or Patton in Flames, for example. Apart from errata it also does not have any new material from the 2008 annual on (e.g. so also no Khaki in Flames - the new kit that swaps out the dark blue CW counters for khaki and adds some more new units).

I do not know about the manual format other than it being shipped as PDF and as hardcopy.



_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to composer99)
Post #: 22
RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 4:23:22 PM   
Grotius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
¿Multiplayer will be only for 2 players?

At release for only two players, but shortly after release, a free patch will expand it to up to 6 players.


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Post #: 23
RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 4:48:55 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


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quote:

How many counters will be in this game? Will the Manual come in ereader form?


There are over 6,000 unique unit counters plus many many more informational counters included with the release. I've spent a bit of time looking at all the different counters included from a form within the game. Rogo, you won't be disappointed by the counter mix.

Mo reb

Edit: and by form I mean an interactive window/ form that can be scrolled, examined, filtered etc.

< Message edited by Missouri_Rebel -- 10/18/2013 4:58:32 PM >


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RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 4:55:36 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

To the best of my knowledge:

MWiF is shipping out with solitaire, hot seat (single-computer multiplayer) and netplay (multiplayer over internet) capability, and will eventually have PBEM capability as well.



I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere, but why is PBEM a feature that will be added later? There are so many interlocking decisions in a normal game of WiF, such as when you get naval interceptions, or the stroke and counter-stroke of committing air units to support and intercept over a land battle, that having to wait for input after each and every one of them will mean a game will take forever and a day.



I have never played PBEM with anyone in any kind of a game, I know how it works but I feel without any knowledge of what I am talking about that this game will not work with PBEM. Maybe you could start Global war when you are twenty years old and finish it in a nursing home, and with my luck my wife will find the cheapest nursing home and it wont have internet. Oh well.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 10/18/2013 4:57:10 PM >

(in reply to Ur_Vile_WEdge)
Post #: 25
RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 5:24:25 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 1990
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From: Madrid, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
¿Multiplayer will be only for 2 players?

At release for only two players, but shortly after release, a free patch will expand it to up to 6 players.



Thanks for that

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 26
RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 6:19:18 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 21922
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

To the best of my knowledge:

MWiF is shipping out with solitaire, hot seat (single-computer multiplayer) and netplay (multiplayer over internet) capability, and will eventually have PBEM capability as well.



I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere, but why is PBEM a feature that will be added later? There are so many interlocking decisions in a normal game of WiF, such as when you get naval interceptions, or the stroke and counter-stroke of committing air units to support and intercept over a land battle, that having to wait for input after each and every one of them will mean a game will take forever and a day.


I've done quite a bit of work on the PBEM system for MWIF over the past 4 years. Recently I've decided that the best way to go will be to enable PBEM and Netplay to be intermixed. That is, the players can run the game via NetPlay when they get to a place in the sequence of play where heavy interaction between the two players is necessary. When one or both sides are making a bunch of independent decisions (e.g., land movement, production), then they could switch to PBEM so they don't have to be on-line waiting for the other player to finish pondering his moves/production. This is still a newish idea, missing the implementation details, but in overview it seems to me to be the right solution/design.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Ur_Vile_WEdge)
Post #: 27
RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 10:16:43 PM   
rodney727


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Thanks rebel. I have never gotten past turn three in this game. It takes me 4 hours to organize and set up the map and to get to turn three. By that time my wife's two cats and the wife herself act like an alien invasion and make me stop or destroy the map altogether . You had me on 6000 counters. I have read and re-read the rule book twice now in the last two days. I am simply fascinated by this game. While my first love will always be panzer corps I see now this will be my no. 2 game. Btw OT. did you see what Missouri did to Georgia ? Loved it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

quote:

How many counters will be in this game? Will the Manual come in ereader form?


There are over 6,000 unique unit counters plus many many more informational counters included with the release. I've spent a bit of time looking at all the different counters included from a form within the game. Rogo, you won't be disappointed by the counter mix.

Mo reb

Edit: and by form I mean an interactive window/ form that can be scrolled, examined, filtered etc.



_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 28
RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 10:22:54 PM   
rodney727


Posts: 1477
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline
Pbem is simply a must . I can't wait to challenge warspite to a game and then sink that ship (if there is a god he/she will let me sink her in the English Channel ). My great grandfather would be proud I can almost see him shinning his iron cross now....
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ur_Vile_WEdge


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

To the best of my knowledge:

MWiF is shipping out with solitaire, hot seat (single-computer multiplayer) and netplay (multiplayer over internet) capability, and will eventually have PBEM capability as well.



I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere, but why is PBEM a feature that will be added later? There are so many interlocking decisions in a normal game of WiF, such as when you get naval interceptions, or the stroke and counter-stroke of committing air units to support and intercept over a land battle, that having to wait for input after each and every one of them will mean a game will take forever and a day.


I've done quite a bit of work on the PBEM system for MWIF over the past 4 years. Recently I've decided that the best way to go will be to enable PBEM and Netplay to be intermixed. That is, the players can run the game via NetPlay when they get to a place in the sequence of play where heavy interaction between the two players is necessary. When one or both sides are making a bunch of independent decisions (e.g., land movement, production), then they could switch to PBEM so they don't have to be on-line waiting for the other player to finish pondering his moves/production. This is still a newish idea, missing the implementation details, but in overview it seems to me to be the right solution/design.



_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 29
RE: Don’t buy this game if….. - 10/18/2013 10:34:47 PM   
danlongman

 

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Is it not true that the development of this game actually predated the Second World War itself and did in fact commence upon
the signing of the Treaty of Versailles? Or was it the Treaty of Trianon? Anyway I have heard that the Second World War was
actually based upon the game rather than the traditional method of having the war first. I will buy it regardless.

_____________________________

"Patriotism: Your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to rodney727)
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