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Air mining interception - Not working in BETA and official

 
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Air mining interception - Not working in BETA and official - 8/25/2013 10:26:31 AM   
koniu


Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline
Game version beta 23k

It is impassible to intercept bombers when they are on mining mission.
There is no firing passes at all. Animation is showing and in the same moment i see "air combat done" massage and bombers doping mines unharmed.

Another strange thing is that when bombers are escorted by fighters, CAP is engaging escort but at moment last escort is destroyed battle is ending and bombers droping mines.

I made test. 50 B-29 doping mines at Tokyo defended by over 500 fighters.
No single shot fired

Afternoon Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 27
A6M8 Zero x 157
J2M5 Jack x 49
N1K1-J George x 56
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 40
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 30
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 108
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 11
Ki-61-Ic Tony x 42
Ki-84b Frank x 49
Ki-84r Frank x 24
Ki-201 Karyu x 42

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 50

No Japanese losses

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29-25 Superfort laying Mk 13 Mine from 8000 feet *
23 x B-29-25 Superfort laying Mk 13 Mine from 6000 feet *

CAP engaged:
S-302 Kokutai with A6M8 Zero (9 airborne, 18 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
Yokosuka Ku S-1 with J2M5 Jack (8 airborne, 16 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
S-303 Hikotai with A6M8 Zero (10 airborne, 20 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
S-304 Hikotai with A6M8 Zero (9 airborne, 20 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
S-316 Hikotai with J2M5 Jack (8 airborne, 17 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
S-601 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (6 airborne, 18 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
302 Ku S-1 with A6M5c Zero (9 airborne, 18 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
S-315 Hikotai with A6M8 Zero (12 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
S-317 Hikotai with A6M8 Zero (11 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
S-701 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (10 airborne, 22 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
1st Sentai with Ki-43-IV Oscar (14 airborne, 28 on standby, 0 scrambling)
14 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
5th Sentai with Ki-43-IV Oscar (10 airborne, 20 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
18th Sentai with Ki-61-Ic Tony (14 airborne, 28 on standby, 0 scrambling)
14 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
20th Sentai with Ki-43-IIIa Oscar (10 airborne, 20 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
48th Sentai with Ki-43-IV Oscar (12 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
104th Sentai with Ki-84b Frank (16 airborne, 33 on standby, 0 scrambling)
16 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
244th Sentai with Ki-201 Karyu (14 airborne, 28 on standby, 0 scrambling)
14 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
246th Sentai with Ki-84r Frank (8 airborne, 16 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
25th I.F.Chutai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (3 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
120th Shinbu-tai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (13 airborne, 27 on standby, 0 scrambling)
13 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes




The same seting but mision is airfiel attack. And CAP intercepting

Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 27
A6M8 Zero x 167
J2M5 Jack x 50
N1K1-J George x 56
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 40
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 33
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 118
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 14
Ki-61-Ib Tony x 1
Ki-61-Ic Tony x 43
Ki-84b Frank x 49
Ki-84r Frank x 49
Ki-201 Karyu x 42

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 72

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 1 destroyed
J2M5 Jack: 1 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 1 damaged
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 1 destroyed
Ki-61-Ic Tony: 1 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed
Ki-21-Ic Sally: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 9 destroyed, 46 damaged
B-29-25 Superfort: 12 destroyed by flak

Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
23 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
2 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
1 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
S-302 Kokutai with A6M8 Zero (9 airborne, 18 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
Yokosuka Ku S-1 with J2M5 Jack (8 airborne, 16 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
S-303 Hikotai with A6M8 Zero (12 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
S-304 Hikotai with A6M8 Zero (12 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
S-316 Hikotai with J2M5 Jack (8 airborne, 18 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
S-601 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (6 airborne, 18 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
302 Ku S-1 with A6M5c Zero (9 airborne, 18 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
S-315 Hikotai with A6M8 Zero (12 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
S-317 Hikotai with A6M8 Zero (8 airborne, 24 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
S-701 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (10 airborne, 22 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
1st Sentai with Ki-43-IV Oscar (14 airborne, 28 on standby, 0 scrambling)
14 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
5th Sentai with Ki-43-IV Oscar (10 airborne, 21 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
18th Sentai with Ki-61-Ic Tony (14 airborne, 29 on standby, 0 scrambling)
14 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
20th Sentai with Ki-43-IIIa Oscar (11 airborne, 22 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
48th Sentai with Ki-43-IV Oscar (15 airborne, 30 on standby, 0 scrambling)
15 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
104th Sentai with Ki-84b Frank (16 airborne, 33 on standby, 0 scrambling)
16 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
244th Sentai with Ki-201 Karyu (14 airborne, 28 on standby, 0 scrambling)
14 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
246th Sentai with Ki-84r Frank (16 airborne, 33 on standby, 0 scrambling)
16 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
23rd I.F.Chutai with Ki-61-Ib Tony (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
25th I.F.Chutai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (4 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes

Banzai! - Mitsumoto N. in a Ki-61-Ic Tony rams a B-29-25 Superfort for the Emperor
Banzai! - Doigawa W. in a J2M5 Jack rams a B-29-25 Superfort for the Emperor



I have no saves but is easy to reproduce in for anyone

< Message edited by koniu -- 8/25/2013 10:50:45 AM >


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RE: Air mining interception - Not working in BETA - 8/25/2013 10:45:00 AM   
koniu


Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline
I test also last beta 23p and official patch.
Interception also not working properly

< Message edited by koniu -- 8/25/2013 4:17:21 PM >


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RE: Air mining interception - Not working in BETA - 8/26/2013 8:20:32 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 13134
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: online
it's always been like this, going back to WITP days. Dunno if it should have changed with some beta though.

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RE: Air mining interception - Not working in BETA and o... - 8/26/2013 11:37:55 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5283
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline
The mining operation by B-29s involved individual aircraft dropping mines rather than massed formations. It took place throughout the hours of darkness of the night. The game mechanics can not simulate that in a realistic way.

IRL the IJ air defense system inflicted less than 20 losses on the bombers doing the mining during the whole war.

(in reply to koniu)
Post #: 4
RE: Air mining interception - Not working in BETA and o... - 8/26/2013 12:53:45 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14026
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

The mining operation by B-29s involved individual aircraft dropping mines rather than massed formations. It took place throughout the hours of darkness of the night. The game mechanics can not simulate that in a realistic way.

IRL the IJ air defense system inflicted less than 20 losses on the bombers doing the mining during the whole war.



Apparently it's happening though in daylight. The tests above are in daylight and in his game it's during the day as well. At night it should be impossible to stop as you say, and it's important to make it happen at night as there are fewer planes that will fly and they will go less often than for a daylight mine-drop.

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RE: Air mining interception - Not working in BETA and o... - 8/26/2013 1:32:36 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Abstract a bit.

Obviously port mining in game attempts to mimic a historical mission profile. Those missions were flown at night and close to never intercepted successfully. The only issue I see is an optical one.

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RE: Air mining interception - Not working in BETA and o... - 8/26/2013 4:01:27 PM   
koniu


Posts: 2763
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Abstract a bit.

Obviously port mining in game attempts to mimic a historical mission profile. Those missions were flown at night and close to never intercepted successfully. The only issue I see is an optical one.


Docup and I decide to restrict air mining to night only.
I is prabably most elegant solution

Why not mining in day. Because i see that as free reckon of CAP above enemy base.
It give to much data to side that is mining (numbers, planes models, altitudes)

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RE: Air mining interception - Not working in BETA and o... - 8/26/2013 4:47:51 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24827
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
That sounds like a good solution in this case. But if you do want the problem addressed, save Michael the work of reproducing it himself and give him a save game. He does all this on a volunteer basis already.

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RE: Air mining interception - Not working in BETA and o... - 8/26/2013 5:15:27 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu
Because i see that as free reckon of CAP above enemy base.
It give to much data to side that is mining (numbers, planes models, altitudes)


Good point!

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RE: Air mining interception - Not working in BETA and o... - 8/26/2013 11:51:21 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5283
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline
Although I support the idea that aerial mining should be "free" during the night I will admit that daytime mining without much/any chance of interception should not be "free". But the mining did not take place utilizing massed formations of bombers even if it involved many bombers. So large formations of bombers vs large formations of fighters is just not the model that can be used. Perhaps the daytime use of bombers on mining operations is unfair in the way that it reveals the IJ air defense but that is just an abstraction of the system to allow the Allies/US to deliver the same strategically significant quantity of mines into Japanese coastal waters as was done in real life. After all since IRL EVERY Japanese merchant ship sent a noon position report in a completely compromised code throughout the war perhaps the trade-off for the mining advantage is worth it for the Japanese Player. It would surely $uck to have a large sample of IJ merchies show up in the Allied Player Intel Report EVERY turn.

< Message edited by spence -- 8/26/2013 11:54:51 PM >

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RE: Air mining interception - Not working in BETA and o... - 8/27/2013 12:22:57 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

It would surely $uck to have a large sample of IJ merchies show up in the Allied Player Intel Report EVERY turn.

You mean they don't now?

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