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AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF "load"

 
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AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF "l... - 8/16/2013 7:14:09 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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In my Japan vs AI game (scen1 Mar42), Palembang is, not surprisingly, a major bottleneck due to all the oil, fuel and resources it produces and lack of adequate port.

It has been challenging to move all this fuel and oil to Singapore, and I already decided it is not worth to take resources from there; hopefully some resources will go to Oosthaven, and if not, I can live without it.

I have most of my "slow" (12kt) TK and AOs moving oil and fuel from Palembang to Singapore. This while fast TK and AO (and fast AKs) do the long trip to Home Islands.

Back to my question: I noticed that I can load fuel to disbanded AOs "load tender button"; this while I have tanker TF docked loading oil/ fuel
Is this "load tender" incremental to the daily capacity? probably not
Would it be faster to just load docked TFs?








< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 8/16/2013 7:18:21 PM >


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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/16/2013 8:37:27 PM   
Lokasenna


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Slow TKs doing the short hops and then the fast ones doing the big run to the HI is the way to go, for sure.

Load tender seems to go slower than loading in a Cargo or Transport TF, but I haven't tested.

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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/16/2013 9:01:29 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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It takes 4 days to load a typical AO this way (2,000 gets loaded each day, total capacity is 8,000)

and it is definitively longer than a normal docked TF... but the point is, I also have TKs loading in docked TFs

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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/16/2013 9:03:16 PM   
USSAmerica


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Sounds like it might be a way to "exploit" the daily port loading limitations.

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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/16/2013 9:14:57 PM   
dr.hal


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I am relatively certain that the load capacity of the port is fixed (unless expanded) thanks to size and other factors (naval support) and thus can't be cheated. If you load "tenders" via the "load tenders" button, this directly subtracts from the overall ability of the port to load other docked or undocked vessels including troops, cargo, and other fuels. And as loading tenders represents loading during the FUTURE 24 hours, it de facto has priority. Normal tankers are not considered tenders and thus are not impacted by that "button"!

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 8/16/2013 9:15:18 PM >


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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/16/2013 9:39:39 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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good to know it is not an exploit;
and I like the fact that every day, the full loading capacity of the port is used

Another related question: does it takes longer to load oil than fuel? many times I have seen that a tanker loading oil takes quite a lot longer to fill than one loading fuel.

It might be just that fuel takes priority over oil in terms of loading TFs

And... naval support: as far as I know it only helps loading/ unloading of supply and troops... not oil, fuel or resources... am I right?

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 8/16/2013 9:40:10 PM >


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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/16/2013 9:43:00 PM   
dr.hal


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I don't have my manual handy, but I too see that it takes longer to load oil. Not sure why. As for Naval Support, I believe you are correct, as you can only force so much liquid through a pipe, no matter how many dancers you might have at a party! The law of fluid dynamics if I'm not mistaken.

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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/16/2013 10:27:18 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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I didn't find in the manual any mention of oil taking longer to load, but it is what I am experiencing

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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/16/2013 11:34:45 PM   
alimentary

 

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6.3.2.2.5:

»» Refineries and oil production facilities at a port increase the load
rate and daily maximum limits for fuel and oil respectively. Increase
is equal to one half of daily production in rate, full daily production
in limit. If both refineries and oil production are present, the amount
of oil used by the refinery is deducted from the increases.


For a fully-repaired Palembang with 900 oil and 1000 refineries that amounts to a production capacity of 9000 oil per day and 9000 fuel per day. As I read the rule, for purposes of fuel loading rate, that's +4500 (rate) and +9000 (limit). For purposes of oil loading it's a net of +0 (rate) and +0 (limit).


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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/17/2013 12:46:52 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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but no mention of oil taking longer to fill a ship than fuel

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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/17/2013 1:12:59 AM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

It takes 4 days to load a typical AO this way (2,000 gets loaded each day, total capacity is 8,000)

and it is definitively longer than a normal docked TF... but the point is, I also have TKs loading in docked TFs


My intial observation on this is that is to be expected. U can only use 1000 ops pooint load tender button. As i understand it ships at docks have assuming it spends all its time there have 2 naval phases each with 1000 ops points. So i would expect around double up, not that i have tested it.

Rasmus

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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/17/2013 3:40:20 AM   
alimentary

 

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That rule does mention that oil takes longer than fuel in the case of a port such as Palambang.

However, one testbed trumps half a dozen looks at the manual.

Observation: Palembang starts the day with 21690 oil and loads 1290 onto tankers. One ship gets all the oil. The rules call for a loading rate of 2000 per ship per day (phase?) and 18750 total per day at a size four port before modifications.

This is with a refinery level of 1020. Oil consumption by refineries for production at the end of the day would be 10200. Two days consumption would be 20400. Subtract that from 21690 and you have 1290.

Theory: The loading routines attempt to guarantee that 2 days worth of production requirements for oil remain at the base at the end of each cargo loading phase. The morning load phase puts 1290 onto one ship. The fleet sits idle with the spigot turned off for the remainder of the day.

Test: Review December 7 turn. 25890 oil in port at beginning of day. Predicted load is 25890 - 20400 = 5490.

Result: Actual total loaded is 5490. Basic theory is confirmed.


Test: Turn off refinery and run forward one day. 21690 oil in port at beginning of test day. Predicted load is 21690 with refinery not causing oil rationing.

Result: Total loaded is only 1290. Apparently turning refinery off does not prevent oil rationing.


Test: Run forward another day. 31694 oil in port at beginning of day. Predicted load is 11294.

Result: Total loaded is in excess of 11986 (the fleet filled up). Apparently ports with 30,000+ oil do not get rationed based on production requirements.

Note that one of the ships in the fleet loaded 6650 tons in one day. This exceeds the port rate which is nominally 2000 on a size 4 port.

Test: Get a bigger fleet with bigger tankers and see what the limit really is. Now there is 58943 oil in port and a fleet with 54550 capacity docked loading oil.

Result: 27930 is loaded. That's the daily limit (18750) plus an unexplained excess of 9180. It turns out that 9180 is the daily fuel output of 1020 refineries. (9180 = 1020 * 9)

Tentative conclusion: The daily liquid cargo rate is computed as the larger of the daily oil rate and the daily fuel rate. This is supported by: 6.3.2.2.1:

»» Oil. Loaded in bulk into liquid space only. Counts against
daily fuel limits.
The Oil Rate is 500 x (Port Size).


That says that 6.3.2.2.5 is misleading on its face. There is no separate "oil limit". There is only the single "fuel limit" which is actually a bulk liquid loading limit.

Test: Set two task forces to loading. One oil and one fuel. Who gets how much? What's the total?

First TF (lowest ID number) gets first crack at it. If you load oil with the lower ID TF and fuel with a higher ID TF then you get more oil than fuel.

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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/17/2013 5:24:06 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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Amazing, thanks!

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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/17/2013 10:34:17 AM   
Quixote


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quote:

Test: Review December 7 turn. 25890 oil in port at beginning of day. Predicted load is 25890 - 20400 = 5490.

Result: Actual total loaded is 5490. Basic theory is confirmed.



Testing is a great way to figure out how the game works, and most of your tests look good, but be careful of testing anything on December 7th (unless your goal is specifically to see how things behave on that turn only.) There are special load rules/move rules in effect on that turn that you won't be able to reproduce for the rest of the game.

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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/17/2013 11:28:16 AM   
alimentary

 

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quote:


Testing is a great way to figure out how the game works, and most of your tests look good, but be careful of testing anything on December 7th (unless your goal is specifically to see how things behave on that turn only.) There are special load rules/move rules in effect on that turn that you won't be able to reproduce for the rest of the game.


Sound advice. With only one naval movement phase, I was also looking for evidence of half-expected-loading. As it turned out, the "oil rationing" effect dominated and no such constraint was seen.

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RE: AO: disband, "load tender" or dock TF &qu... - 8/18/2013 1:30:31 PM   
dr.hal


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Good stuff Alimentary, well done. Interesting, I guess one can't always go with anecdotal information. It takes research. Hal

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