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Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option

 
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Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/12/2013 12:48:23 PM   
Zazen

 

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Imho Tech trading really destroys the potential strategic depth of games such as this. This is especially true in Distant Worlds as tech trading un-balances the economic game as tech is worth so much money. Now in order to obtain the techs of other empires you have to utilize the espionage system, which is a great side-effect. Thanks!
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RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/12/2013 1:29:41 PM   
FerretStyle

 

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Does that option affect the AI empires or is it just there as a player handicap?

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RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/12/2013 2:16:25 PM   
Icemania


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Zazen, I agree it's unbalanced in it's current form. I also consider technology trading a feature of these types of games so I would prefer improving balance over banning trading. As a temporary solution until the mechanic is improved or DW2, rather than ban trading entirely, I've ended up with a compromise thanks to a suggestion from Darkspire. In the biases file I've reduced the bias for all other races so most races dislike me and the most favourable races are neutral. As a result it's only realistic to trade with a couple of races rather than everyone and even these may need plenty of diplomatic effort at times. Combining this with banning technology selling provides a better balance.

(in reply to FerretStyle)
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RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/12/2013 2:21:23 PM   
Darkspire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FerretStyle

Does that option affect the AI empires or is it just there as a player handicap?


That is a very good question, logic suggests it is only the player but it would be good to know if it does affect the AS as well. I set it to off and upped the pirates to max strength, much fun, going to have a rethink now for my starting options, map size, biases file, amount of empires and whether to have them start with a lead etc.

Darkspire LLAP

< Message edited by Darkspire -- 8/12/2013 2:23:10 PM >


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RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/12/2013 7:04:19 PM   
scotten_usa

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FerretStyle

Does that option affect the AI empires or is it just there as a player handicap?


I have wondered the same thing.

It would be nice to gain some advancements in tech by capturing enemy planets.

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RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/12/2013 8:23:59 PM   
shinobu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FerretStyle

Does that option affect the AI empires or is it just there as a player handicap?


Like to know this as well. If it does affect the AI empires, I would never play this way... The AIs need all the help they can get...

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RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/12/2013 8:50:08 PM   
Shark7


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I turn it on. I often trade tech to AI empires to strengthen them, as opposed to using it as a diplomatic tool or money maker.

To balance it, I really think you need to do (at least) the following:

1. Take away the relations boost you get from tech trading. Basically make it a diplomacy neutral action. Business is Business after all.
2. Require the two empires trading tech to have a MDP between them.

That would both make it a bit more difficult to do and prevent it from having any effect on relations...makes it so that trading a piece of tech can't be used as a easy way to dramatically boost relations.

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RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 1:30:07 AM   
Icemania


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Fully agree with Shark.

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RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 2:31:44 AM   
Keldun

 

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This is nice but I think the espionage system is even more broke than the tech trading system.
If someone has an experienced spy they can with their unique spy, steal all the tech from the other empires without giving them anything in return, 1 each month while teching on their own tree putting them light years ahead of everyone else without even researching much.
In games with very long tech research time, this is balance breaking.
I think it would have been nice to allow us to disable completely all kind of tech transfer as well for this type of games

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 9
RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 2:41:38 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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It would take quite a long time to steal all the tech. You don't get one full tech from a single successful mission and there is always a risk of failure even for an uber-spy.

Regards,

- Erik


< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 8/13/2013 2:42:07 AM >


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Post #: 10
RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 2:48:56 AM   
Icemania


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Personally I don't want any feature of the game disabled, I would rather that balance was improved, but have no objections to more options for players.

With Spies I tend to find there are only some games where I get a mega spy who can routinely mass steal research quickly without getting caught but then again I don't play races that have spying bonuses. So perhaps the rate of progression of Spy characters should be slowed and capped.

In addition to what Shark has suggested I would also suggest selling technology requires an MDP and that they are valued by the AI to be significantly less. Balance changes such as this are readily implementable and I urge the developer to consider this.

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RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 2:56:01 AM   
Icemania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

It would take quite a long time to steal all the tech. You don't get one full tech from a single successful mission and there is always a risk of failure even for an uber-spy.

Regards,

- Erik


This is true. However, on those rare occasions where I spawn a mega-spy (particularly one that also has good concealment it seems), if you are careful about selecting high probability missions, it's possible to avoid getting captured, build skills, and the advantage can become massive. Hence the suggestion to slow down character progression a bit and cap it a lower level.



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Post #: 12
RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 3:02:11 AM   
Keldun

 

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Yes or make the the spy capture some a fixed amount of tech points instead of a percentage. So that in longer tech games, we actually need more effort in tech stealing to get a tech as well.
Although I would still love the option to completely disable it.

(in reply to Icemania)
Post #: 13
RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 4:57:03 AM   
Shark7


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For those that think spy missions can burn through the tech trees too fast, I suggest trying the game with tech cost set to 999k. It takes multiple missions to gain any tech above level 1 at that cost with a spy.

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Post #: 14
RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 6:33:44 AM   
Darkspire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

It would take quite a long time to steal all the tech. You don't get one full tech from a single successful mission and there is always a risk of failure even for an uber-spy.

Regards,

- Erik



The question remains unanswered, does tech tech trading off affect the AI as well?

Darkspire LLAP

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Post #: 15
RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 1:42:25 PM   
Plant


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The reason why techtrading is so powerful is that the cost of the technology being sold is out of proportion to the cost of gain that technology. What is the cost of gaining that technology? The upkeep of the research labs during the time taken to research that specific technology.

Of course it's partially also because the AI cannot analyse the cost/benefit of the technology in the first place.

(in reply to Darkspire)
Post #: 16
RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 1:50:16 PM   
ASHBERY76


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A big and easy thing to do in the game was to sell tech to the A.I for large amounts of cash which made the economy even more worthless.I think the game will be a greater challenge without tech trading.

I recall Erik talking about research treaties ala CIV5 style before Shadows but it came to nothing.That would be a better solution.

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Post #: 17
RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 3:16:52 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
The question remains unanswered, does tech tech trading off affect the AI as well?


It should, yes.


_____________________________


Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Darkspire)
Post #: 18
RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 4:09:23 PM   
Darkspire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
The question remains unanswered, does tech tech trading off affect the AI as well?


It should, yes.



That possibly opens a whole speculative tin of worms then. Personally I never tech trade anyway so I will just leave it on in the next game, just seems the whole idea was to give the player the option to disable it so that they would not be tempted to use it, not to disable it for the AI as well, the reason I wrote speculative is that I have read quite a few posts from experienced players that state the AI does tech trade to keep up with things, if it is disabled for the AI as well then that is only going to cause problems is it not?

Darkspire LLAP

< Message edited by Darkspire -- 8/13/2013 4:10:25 PM >


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Post #: 19
RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 4:16:05 PM   
shinobu


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Two buttons would solve this:
1) Disable tech trading for human players only.
2) Disable tech trading for human and AI players.

(in reply to Darkspire)
Post #: 20
RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 4:39:52 PM   
ASHBERY76


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The side effect is the A.I's might not so easily get peace deals due to lack of cash assets and might fights allied wars for more than 10 minutes.

< Message edited by ASHBERY76 -- 8/13/2013 4:40:20 PM >


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RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/13/2013 10:33:42 PM   
mSterian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

The side effect is the A.I's might not so easily get peace deals due to lack of cash assets and might fights allied wars for more than 10 minutes.

quote:

llied wars for more than 10 minutes.


Haha. Good one. Indeed wars between AIs seem to last very little. Hope this fixes things.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)
Post #: 22
RE: Thank-You for "NO TECH TRADE" option - 8/14/2013 8:19:35 AM   
Mad Igor

 

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srsly...if you not so found of tech trading - DON'T TRADE.
simple as that.
i never(yes,NEVER) traded a single tech in any of my DW games. i find it not worth for both sides (why would i trade some trash tech for 2KK ?? and selling it for same amount is fun killing)

(in reply to mSterian)
Post #: 23
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