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Demo's - 7/29/2013 6:48:52 PM   
bo

 

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I do not understand Matrix's reluctance to put out demo's for all of their games, it makes me a little or maybe a lot suspicious that they like to sell their products sight unseen in case there is a few bummers they sell to the unsuspecting war gamers. Not inferring they mean to do that.

I have bought a few of those clunkers believe me. Most of the games that Matrix sells are decent games and I have enjoyed them BUT!

An answer by someone in Matrix [forget who] that a demo does not really show what a game is truly like and that the games demo makers only put the best scenes into the demo, this is probably true.

But I and I am sure many others would like to know the gist of the game, for instance say a civil war game, is it Nato counters or is it figurines moving around a battlefield, what do you get from Matrix, maybe four pictures that are very hard to discern what is going on.

Over at Battlefront every game has a demo, it gives you a feel for the game if not the nitty gritty of the game itself, even though every demo I have ever downloaded and then bought the game seemed pretty accurate to me.

I like Matrix in general and I am a beta tester for Matrix's World In Flames which is shaping into a phenomenal game, of course I have a slight prejudice towards the game

I like Matrix in general and I do not feel I am dissing them, but someone in authority at Matrix should get on the stick and insist that all games to be sold on their site must have a demo. Like to hear from someone at Matrix or forum posters for or against my feelings.

Bo

Bill Bowen

Beta Tester for Matrix World in Flames
bowenw1@verizon.net

< Message edited by bo -- 7/29/2013 6:54:11 PM >
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RE: Demo's - 7/29/2013 7:00:01 PM   
Max 86


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Jeez this again! Search the forum and you will find their perfectly coherent reply to this issue....many times over!

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RE: Demo's - 7/29/2013 8:46:10 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Max 86

Jeez this again! Search the forum and you will find their perfectly coherent reply to this issue....many times over!


Yeah Jeez this again, how about a coherent answer from you, I am sure your explanation will suffice for all the bad games put out and purchased through the years. Do you have something better to discuss then our hard earned wasted dollars or Euros spent on games that a demo might say Please Don't Buy. What is your problem with knowing what kind of a game we might be buying.
And I have seen some answers most of them not very coherent.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 7/29/2013 8:47:59 PM >

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RE: Demo's - 7/29/2013 9:44:02 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ah, the old demo discussion, coming back for another go round... I wish I could just link to the past discussions, but I don't have the time to search for them. Let me hit the highlights:

Making a demo is not easy because:
- Demos get on average 5 minutes of a customers time to create an impression. With wargames, this means that more often than not a demo generates an unfavorable impression as no one invests the time to actually learn the game
- A demo needs to show the game in a favorable way while only allowing access to a small portion of the game's content. With a wargame, that means you need to invest in additional tutorial/documentation work to try to get past the "5 minute" issue.
- Wargames are made on a shoestring budget compared to most games. In order to have a demo be relatively easy to split off from a development standpoint, it is best designed for from the start and because of the above points, this generally doesn't make sense.

Now we have released demos in the past and we will release demos again in the future. Most often, we do so for games that also go into retail. What results have we seen? In general, even when we carefully choose which games to demo and put extra effort into those demos, they generate almost zero sales for us at the end of the day.

We find that we can educate a customer much better about a game through AARs, Tester comments, interaction with the Designers and Developers on our boards as well as written previews and reviews. In the past, we tried demos for some wargames that really were not ideal for demos and we actually saw _negative_ sales from that. Now that would be fine if that meant that customers were being educated by the demo. But what we saw in forum posts was that in fact customers were being misinformed by the demo and the impressions of demo customers were at odds with the experiences of customers who actually owned and had played the game for more than 5 minutes.

Frankly, in our experience, demos are _on average_ not a good way to show off or explain wargames. For other types of games that are much simpler, they make good sense. I'm sure that for some of our customers, this is not true and that a lack of demos costs us some sales. But overall, we actually educate customers better and make more sales by focusing our resources on the other promotional methods so it's a good decision for us on the macro scale.

Regards,

- Erik


Max 86 is right. That took less than 5 seconds to find.


< Message edited by Aurelian -- 7/29/2013 9:45:48 PM >


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RE: Demo's - 7/29/2013 11:23:03 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ah, the old demo discussion, coming back for another go round... I wish I could just link to the past discussions, but I don't have the time to search for them. Let me hit the highlights:

Making a demo is not easy because:
- Demos get on average 5 minutes of a customers time to create an impression. With wargames, this means that more often than not a demo generates an unfavorable impression as no one invests the time to actually learn the game
- A demo needs to show the game in a favorable way while only allowing access to a small portion of the game's content. With a wargame, that means you need to invest in additional tutorial/documentation work to try to get past the "5 minute" issue.
- Wargames are made on a shoestring budget compared to most games. In order to have a demo be relatively easy to split off from a development standpoint, it is best designed for from the start and because of the above points, this generally doesn't make sense.

Now we have released demos in the past and we will release demos again in the future. Most often, we do so for games that also go into retail. What results have we seen? In general, even when we carefully choose which games to demo and put extra effort into those demos, they generate almost zero sales for us at the end of the day.

We find that we can educate a customer much better about a game through AARs, Tester comments, interaction with the Designers and Developers on our boards as well as written previews and reviews. In the past, we tried demos for some wargames that really were not ideal for demos and we actually saw _negative_ sales from that. Now that would be fine if that meant that customers were being educated by the demo. But what we saw in forum posts was that in fact customers were being misinformed by the demo and the impressions of demo customers were at odds with the experiences of customers who actually owned and had played the game for more than 5 minutes.

Frankly, in our experience, demos are _on average_ not a good way to show off or explain wargames. For other types of games that are much simpler, they make good sense. I'm sure that for some of our customers, this is not true and that a lack of demos costs us some sales. But overall, we actually educate customers better and make more sales by focusing our resources on the other promotional methods so it's a good decision for us on the macro scale.

Regards,

- Erik


Max 86 is right. That took less than 5 seconds to find.



I don't have 5 seconds to look up what Erik said because I already read that somewhere in the past, as much as I respect Erik I believe his statement is incorrect about demo's, actually I find it a cop out, this is 2013 not the dark ages of computer war games, Battlefront does not seem to have a problem with demo's doing this or doing that. Instead of quoting Erik like he is your god how about your opinion Aurelian, do you agree with what he said? Now be honest.

I asked a legitimate question and expect an answer or an opinion if possible without a snide remark if that is possible, besides my question was directed again to Erik, just maybe he might have a different opinion now then how he felt some years ago.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 7/29/2013 11:25:55 PM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Demo's - 7/29/2013 11:56:44 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ah, the old demo discussion, coming back for another go round... I wish I could just link to the past discussions, but I don't have the time to search for them. Let me hit the highlights:

Making a demo is not easy because:
- Demos get on average 5 minutes of a customers time to create an impression. With wargames, this means that more often than not a demo generates an unfavorable impression as no one invests the time to actually learn the game
- A demo needs to show the game in a favorable way while only allowing access to a small portion of the game's content. With a wargame, that means you need to invest in additional tutorial/documentation work to try to get past the "5 minute" issue.
- Wargames are made on a shoestring budget compared to most games. In order to have a demo be relatively easy to split off from a development standpoint, it is best designed for from the start and because of the above points, this generally doesn't make sense.

Now we have released demos in the past and we will release demos again in the future. Most often, we do so for games that also go into retail. What results have we seen? In general, even when we carefully choose which games to demo and put extra effort into those demos, they generate almost zero sales for us at the end of the day.

We find that we can educate a customer much better about a game through AARs, Tester comments, interaction with the Designers and Developers on our boards as well as written previews and reviews. In the past, we tried demos for some wargames that really were not ideal for demos and we actually saw _negative_ sales from that. Now that would be fine if that meant that customers were being educated by the demo. But what we saw in forum posts was that in fact customers were being misinformed by the demo and the impressions of demo customers were at odds with the experiences of customers who actually owned and had played the game for more than 5 minutes.

Frankly, in our experience, demos are _on average_ not a good way to show off or explain wargames. For other types of games that are much simpler, they make good sense. I'm sure that for some of our customers, this is not true and that a lack of demos costs us some sales. But overall, we actually educate customers better and make more sales by focusing our resources on the other promotional methods so it's a good decision for us on the macro scale.

Regards,

- Erik


Max 86 is right. That took less than 5 seconds to find.



I don't have 5 seconds to look up what Erik said because I already read that somewhere in the past, as much as I respect Erik I believe his statement is incorrect about demo's, actually I find it a cop out, this is 2013 not the dark ages of computer war games, Battlefront does not seem to have a problem with demo's doing this or doing that. Instead of quoting Erik like he is your god how about your opinion Aurelian, do you agree with what he said? Now be honest.

I asked a legitimate question and expect an answer or an opinion if possible without a snide remark if that is possible, besides my question was directed again to Erik, just maybe he might have a different opinion now then how he felt some years ago.

Bo


You asked a question that has been asked, and answered, over and over. You got the answer. If you don't like the answer, that is your problem and yours alone.

Here's another snide remark or two. Don't want your question answered by just anybody, then don't post it on a public forum. And take 5 seconds to use the search feature. If you can take the time to complain about answers you don't like, surely you can take the same time to search.



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RE: Demo's - 7/29/2013 11:57:42 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

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I'm sure Erik or Iain could answer at greater length but our current experience is, that for the majority of our games, demos have no net advantage. The point above that they cost a great deal of time, effort, and money - while failing to really give most players the answers they want, and in fact misleading some - is still very much true.

There is even new data which suggests that demos actually lower sales (although the statistics are pretty rough and hard to control for) - but even the suggestion does tend to go against the existing wisdom (mine included, in the past) that demos help convince people to buy a game.

As said, we try and ensure there are lots of other materials to allow people to get a broad view of the game depth, style, and so on.

Cheers

Pip

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RE: Demo's - 7/30/2013 12:26:55 AM   
Aurelian

 

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http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3312181&mpage=1&key=demos

From this year Bo.

"A demo or not? It’s certainly true we don’t make a demo for every game and there are varied and complex reasons for that. As a general rule for games that you can pick up and get into quickly, such as Battle Academy or Panzer Corps we do make demos. For games that require an investment in time we generally don’t. Here we believe demos are counterproductive as more time, effort and exploration is needed by the player to get into the game than is generally allowed in a demo."

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RE: Demo's - 7/30/2013 12:37:10 AM   
DSWargamer

 

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I am nobody so I can say it.

If Battlefront was so great, then everyone would be rushing over to THEIR site and buying games THEY are publishing

Battlefront also expects me to pay for patches. Now that is lame.
Battlefront uses DRM schemes that utterly kill sales.

And some of their titles are not worth a penny too. I saw Theatre of War all on sale for 75% off on Steam, and I chuckled and took a pass all the same. Everyone can have some crummy games.

Sure not every game here will sing for you. I have seen a few titles that were a bit green and needed a bit more work.

But in the past, to me a demo was about 'will the program run on my computer' not about 'will I think the game sucks'.

I have bought some games purely on the strength of a video interview. I have bought games based solely on the opinion of another gamer that rings true with how I see game design. Sometimes you just need to consider some of us as just that, reviewers you find yourself in sync with. I never watch movies my friends slag based on how they slag them. I know why they like what they like.

It's the same with wargames.

And if Erik says demos cost more sales than they create, I think he's in a position to know seeing as he has access to numbers we don't.
I won't agree with everything he might say on a range of gaming topics, but, it is silly to think he's hiding anything.

I have seen the ugly layer of the internet, I know what happens to games that are marketed incorrectly. I know the reality of gaming when it comes to how they are sold.

Slitherine Groups games are excellently designed, have a hit rate of about 75% or better in my opinion, they are not cheap, they do go on sale if you desperately need to wait, and they have the hobby's friendliest DRM in existence. A serial, nothing but a serial. If the game seriously sucks in your view, you are able to arrange a sale if you truly desperately need to. The software is after all just an installer and a serial. Forget doing that with most of the rest of the industry.

I have liked the games I have liked so much so, that the VERY small amount of games I might not have bought, is too little to cry over.

I have not really needed any of the demos Slitherine Group DOES have.

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RE: Demo's - 7/30/2013 1:29:05 AM   
Max 86


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


And I have seen some answers most of them not very coherent.

Bo


Improve your English language skills and maybe you will understand...maybe.


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RE: Demo's - 7/30/2013 1:40:09 AM   
bo

 

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By the way I am not against Erik Rutins as he brought me into the beta testing team for Marix's MWIF. And I deeply appreciate that.

Aurelian that post by Ian Mcneil about the state of affairs at Matrix was excellent and I thank you for that one and they have to do what is best for them I do understand that.

PipFromSlitherine I never said or even thought that demos help convince people to buy a game, what I did say and of course it got a little twisted, was about about the look of the game, I tried to use the Civil War games that are for sale and the one coming Brother against Brother, a demo would tell me right away if it was the type of game that might interest me such as WEGO YOUGO, hex oriented, decent graphics, detailed map, etc.

I am very map oriented and prefer games with good graphics and accurate maps that does not mean it is a good game it is I just like certain styles of games.

DSWargamer, the funny thing is outside of Combat Mission series I do not think that much of Battleground, I feel that Matrix has much better games I was only referring to their business manners of letting you know what a game might look like, does not mean it will play right.

As for MWIF I believe no demo is needed as it has been one of the most talked about game in the history of computer war gaming, it has taken way to long to complete but it is so complex with all it's optional rules that when completed it will be hopefully a game that does not go onto the shelf of used games [and you know that shelf is filled] but will be played by wargamers all over the world for many years to come.

Not looking for an argument just expressing an opinion right or wrong.

In every forum there is always a Max 86.

Bo

< Message edited by bo -- 7/30/2013 4:31:12 PM >

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RE: Demo's - 7/30/2013 4:25:58 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Hi Bo,

In general, we have not seen anything that would make me change my opinion in the intervening years, after quite a few additional demos. They can serve a good purpose, but only in rare cases. Overall, they are a time sink for the development team with little positive result. I understand why they are popular among customers but we've found that other methods of showing and explaining the game are less costly and do a better job of informing. As always, YMMV and one size does not fit all, so there are gamers for whom a demo is the best way to decide about a game, but this does not seem to apply as a rule to most gamers.

Regards,

- Erik


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RE: Demo's - 7/30/2013 6:06:56 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi Bo,

In general, we have not seen anything that would make me change my opinion in the intervening years, after quite a few additional demos. They can serve a good purpose, but only in rare cases. Overall, they are a time sink for the development team with little positive result. I understand why they are popular among customers but we've found that other methods of showing and explaining the game are less costly and do a better job of informing. As always, YMMV and one size does not fit all, so there are gamers for whom a demo is the best way to decide about a game, but this does not seem to apply as a rule to most gamers.

Regards,

- Erik

Hi Erik

Thank you for your insight, this might be best for Matrix, that I have no doubt of, and I agree with write-ups by Matrix and knowledgeable gamers giving their opinions on the forums about this game or that game and helping the average war game enthusiast to select a game that he or she might like.

But some people [and I have through the years] tend to believe what the write up might say about how wonderful their game is with a very intelligent AI they have programmed into the game and their great graphics, brilliant interface and so on, we purchase the game and lo and behold not quite what they claim. But now it is too late. And what company in the gaming world does not think that their product is the best there is out there.

I do believe that you [Erik] and other people of Matrix do your best to make sure that before you sign on to releasing a game to the general public, you at least look into the game to see if it is worthy of the Matrix Logo. At least I hope you do. Again not looking for an argument Erik just not completely sold on your explanation about a demo would not help a person to make a good decision about a game.

But I do agree with you if you say the cost to do a demo is not worth it and it would hurt your overall profit, I must trust your view on that because you see the statistics and you have rendered your opinion with complete honesty.

Thank you

BO



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RE: Demo's - 7/31/2013 11:40:49 AM   
jerrystead

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Overall, they are a time sink for the development team with little positive result. I understand why they are popular among customers but we've found that other methods of showing and explaining the game are less costly and do a better job of informing.



Like censored reviews from Wargamer.com?

Thanks for this. Had a good laugh.

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RE: Demo's - 7/31/2013 2:57:20 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jerrystead
Thanks for this. Had a good laugh.


This from the guy who diagnosed Iain with a personality disorder remotely based on reading his posts? I'm afraid the joke's on you...

Regards,

- Erik


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RE: Demo's - 7/31/2013 3:34:19 PM   
wings7


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Well thought out game play or information video on YouTube (with a link on the games product page) would be best instead of demos. I think it would satisfy the customer and Matrix, a win-win situation!

Patrick

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RE: Demo's - 7/31/2013 4:46:03 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7

Well thought out game play or information video on YouTube (with a link on the games product page) would be best instead of demos. I think it would satisfy the customer and Matrix, a win-win situation!

Patrick


Wings7, excellent comment, I just started doing that the other day, I was able to download a demo of the Civil War game the Blue and the Grey and that convinced me that I am very happy I did not buy that game. Detail wise excellent, game play for me terrible, do not like that kind of game play.

Would appreciate it if someone could direct me to a good civil war game, I know Brother against Brother and Civil war 2 is coming soon but if there is no demo then what, lets just go by the write ups of the parent company how wonderful their game is. Oh well!

Bo

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RE: Demo's - 7/31/2013 4:51:36 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: jerrystead
Thanks for this. Had a good laugh.


This from the guy who diagnosed Iain with a personality disorder remotely based on reading his posts? I'm afraid the joke's on you...

Regards,

- Erik


Hi Erik

What does he mean by that comment about Wargamer.com. and Iain. Is he trolling or does he have a point? [I do not mean a point about Iain]

Bo

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RE: Demo's - 7/31/2013 8:29:55 PM   
flanyboy

 

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As someone whose written for wargamer.com and done some video reviews as well I've never been told to write a certain way.

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RE: Demo's - 7/31/2013 8:54:25 PM   
Aurelian

 

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The guy is a troll. Both posts show that.

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RE: Demo's - 8/1/2013 5:17:11 AM   
gexmex

 

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I can't speak for other consumers, but I find demos to be quite useful. They've helped me make decisions on several occasions. On the other hand, I can see points y'all make about time taken to make them, expenses and whatnot. Even so, demos have been a good tool for me to make more educated decisions (and to enjoy games I can't afford until the holiday sale :-P ). I suppose I'm in the minority, I just wanted to chime in.

< Message edited by gexmex -- 8/1/2013 5:18:52 AM >

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RE: Demo's - 8/1/2013 7:42:14 AM   
nicwb

 

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Fair enough Gexmex,

I guess my experience is different. With strategy games I find that I get more out of a video or a good AAR. For me it comes down to a time factor. I can watch a vid or read an AAR far quicker than bash through a demo in a strategy game.

The thing that sold me on Command Ops was the combination demo video/AAR/tutorial by the developer rather than demo game.

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RE: Demo's - 8/1/2013 4:26:08 PM   
bo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nicwb

Fair enough Gexmex,

I guess my experience is different. With strategy games I find that I get more out of a video or a good AAR. For me it comes down to a time factor. I can watch a vid or read an AAR far quicker than bash through a demo in a strategy game.

The thing that sold me on Command Ops was the combination demo video/AAR/tutorial by the developer rather than demo game.


Hi nicwb

Actually what I was trying to get across until a few statements got twisted around was that a demo tells me real quick if the format of the game is to my liking or not, if it plays well that's fine too, for example I am looking for a good civil war game and I downloaded the Blue and the Gray and found out in the first couple of moves this game is not for me.

I downloaded Scourge of war demo and saw some really ridiculous movements play out on both sides, maybe some people like that kind of game. Little soldiers moving about looks nice until you see how they act in game play. I would agree that Combat Mission Normandy plays very well, but I am looking for a civil war game and as of yet have not found it.

Brother against brother looks decent but I like more of a strategic game than a pure tactical game. Forge of freedom looks very good but it is 7 years old [ancient for a computer game] with no reduction in price. Civil war 2 looks to me at least, a little like the Blue and the Gray and Civil war 1. I would buy FOF or more likely a remake of it if the price was right.

Bo

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Post #: 23
RE: Demo's - 8/1/2013 6:02:03 PM   
gexmex

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nicwb

Fair enough Gexmex,

I guess my experience is different. With strategy games I find that I get more out of a video or a good AAR. For me it comes down to a time factor. I can watch a vid or read an AAR far quicker than bash through a demo in a strategy game.

The thing that sold me on Command Ops was the combination demo video/AAR/tutorial by the developer rather than demo game.



No question, I really use those AARs and walkthroughs as well. Screenshots are great in those. Plus, I can peruse those during breaks while at work (shhhh, don't tell!). Another really useful thing about demos though from my POV is as an indicator of how the game will perform on my machines. Sure, the system requirements provide that info to an extent, but I've had games that didn't agree with my laptop/pc even though I more than met the recommended specs. In that case I would have probably purchased the game and been kind of hosed. Other times, demos have issues that the full version don't have, so that can go both ways I suppose. So that's just another aspect I thought of.

Pros and cons to both approaches

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Post #: 24
RE: Demo's - 8/2/2013 5:00:16 AM   
flanyboy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


quote:

ORIGINAL: nicwb

Fair enough Gexmex,

I guess my experience is different. With strategy games I find that I get more out of a video or a good AAR. For me it comes down to a time factor. I can watch a vid or read an AAR far quicker than bash through a demo in a strategy game.

The thing that sold me on Command Ops was the combination demo video/AAR/tutorial by the developer rather than demo game.


Hi nicwb

Actually what I was trying to get across until a few statements got twisted around was that a demo tells me real quick if the format of the game is to my liking or not, if it plays well that's fine too, for example I am looking for a good civil war game and I downloaded the Blue and the Gray and found out in the first couple of moves this game is not for me.

I downloaded Scourge of war demo and saw some really ridiculous movements play out on both sides, maybe some people like that kind of game. Little soldiers moving about looks nice until you see how they act in game play. I would agree that Combat Mission Normandy plays very well, but I am looking for a civil war game and as of yet have not found it.

Brother against brother looks decent but I like more of a strategic game than a pure tactical game. Forge of freedom looks very good but it is 7 years old [ancient for a computer game] with no reduction in price. Civil war 2 looks to me at least, a little like the Blue and the Gray and Civil war 1. I would buy FOF or more likely a remake of it if the price was right.

Bo


Does the scourge of war demo you have show version 1.61? The newest patch for scourge of war fixed most of the movement issues, you'll still see strange movements from time to time but that usually only results when you try and cram to many regiments into far too small a space.

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 25
RE: Demo's - 8/2/2013 5:32:40 PM   
bo

 

Posts: 4182
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


quote:

ORIGINAL: nicwb

Fair enough Gexmex,

I guess my experience is different. With strategy games I find that I get more out of a video or a good AAR. For me it comes down to a time factor. I can watch a vid or read an AAR far quicker than bash through a demo in a strategy game.

The thing that sold me on Command Ops was the combination demo video/AAR/tutorial by the developer rather than demo game.


Hi nicwb

Actually what I was trying to get across until a few statements got twisted around was that a demo tells me real quick if the format of the game is to my liking or not, if it plays well that's fine too, for example I am looking for a good civil war game and I downloaded the Blue and the Gray and found out in the first couple of moves this game is not for me.

I downloaded Scourge of war demo and saw some really ridiculous movements play out on both sides, maybe some people like that kind of game. Little soldiers moving about looks nice until you see how they act in game play. I would agree that Combat Mission Normandy plays very well, but I am looking for a civil war game and as of yet have not found it.

Brother against brother looks decent but I like more of a strategic game than a pure tactical game. Forge of freedom looks very good but it is 7 years old [ancient for a computer game] with no reduction in price. Civil war 2 looks to me at least, a little like the Blue and the Gray and Civil war 1. I would buy FOF or more likely a remake of it if the price was right.

Bo


Does the scourge of war demo you have show version 1.61? The newest patch for scourge of war fixed most of the movement issues, you'll still see strange movements from time to time but that usually only results when you try and cram to many regiments into far too small a space.


Hi flanyboy

I do not know the answer to that one, it probably is not in there which in a way shoots some holes in my demo theory. A new demo would not show the fixes for the game after being in a way play tested by the people purchasing the game. After a month or two any missed bugs or play enhancement that might benefit the game may very well never make it to a demo. I agree that is not a good thing.

I have been playing the demo The Blue and the Gray, the effort put into the game with statistics, references to all the units in the civil war for strengths, mobility, leaders is excellent but the game play leaves a lot to be desired at least for me. The demo shows me that.

I had a conversation [e-mail] some time ago about how hard is it to make a demo and also cost wise. No names but the game is Strategic Command which has a demo for every one of their series.
I was told [hopefully correctly] that making a demo was very easy, you take the first 8 or 9 moves of the actual game and put it on a demo for download and let the paying consumers judge if they like the game or not.

But I now realize the demo could be slightly misleading because the fixes or enhancements would not be in that demo, I guess it's a tough call. Again I say with common sense about demo's, how many games that are on our never play again shelf would have been purchased if we had seen a demo? Just an opinion.

Bo



(in reply to flanyboy)
Post #: 26
RE: Demo's - 8/3/2013 2:46:14 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 4016
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
Forge of Freedom was the first deal of the week.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 8/3/2013 2:50:44 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to bo)
Post #: 27
RE: Demo's - 8/3/2013 4:05:13 AM   
flanyboy

 

Posts: 1453
Joined: 11/30/2006
Status: offline
Bo if Scourge of War interests you check out the lets plays either on my YouTube channel or Matrix's. I haven't had a chance to check out Matrix's videos in their entreaties but honestly I think a video game-play probably gives you a better sense of the game than strictly a demo.

Also if you have any questions about SOW feel free to jump on over to their forums, the people there are incredibly helpful and willing to address any concerns you might have. They also prowl the Matrix thread for SOW so you can obviously check some stuff out there. Personally I recommend the scourge of war forums if only because there are also a few mods over there you might stumble upon, there is an online competitive campaign which many members frequent on their forum as well as a Napoleonic warfare mod you can get some info on over there as well.

Lastly, if you are wondering about anything feel free to shoot me an email or pm, I helped play-test Brandy Station so I can probably answer any questions you might have about the game, or I can get the you the answers you seek.

Just know that movement was a key upgrade in the most recent patch and it was significantly improved, though you will still see odd movements from time to time (mostly) if you try to cram to many men in too small a space.
quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: bo


quote:

ORIGINAL: nicwb

Fair enough Gexmex,

I guess my experience is different. With strategy games I find that I get more out of a video or a good AAR. For me it comes down to a time factor. I can watch a vid or read an AAR far quicker than bash through a demo in a strategy game.

The thing that sold me on Command Ops was the combination demo video/AAR/tutorial by the developer rather than demo game.


Hi nicwb

Actually what I was trying to get across until a few statements got twisted around was that a demo tells me real quick if the format of the game is to my liking or not, if it plays well that's fine too, for example I am looking for a good civil war game and I downloaded the Blue and the Gray and found out in the first couple of moves this game is not for me.

I downloaded Scourge of war demo and saw some really ridiculous movements play out on both sides, maybe some people like that kind of game. Little soldiers moving about looks nice until you see how they act in game play. I would agree that Combat Mission Normandy plays very well, but I am looking for a civil war game and as of yet have not found it.

Brother against brother looks decent but I like more of a strategic game than a pure tactical game. Forge of freedom looks very good but it is 7 years old [ancient for a computer game] with no reduction in price. Civil war 2 looks to me at least, a little like the Blue and the Gray and Civil war 1. I would buy FOF or more likely a remake of it if the price was right.

Bo


Does the scourge of war demo you have show version 1.61? The newest patch for scourge of war fixed most of the movement issues, you'll still see strange movements from time to time but that usually only results when you try and cram to many regiments into far too small a space.


Hi flanyboy

I do not know the answer to that one, it probably is not in there which in a way shoots some holes in my demo theory. A new demo would not show the fixes for the game after being in a way play tested by the people purchasing the game. After a month or two any missed bugs or play enhancement that might benefit the game may very well never make it to a demo. I agree that is not a good thing.

I have been playing the demo The Blue and the Gray, the effort put into the game with statistics, references to all the units in the civil war for strengths, mobility, leaders is excellent but the game play leaves a lot to be desired at least for me. The demo shows me that.

I had a conversation [e-mail] some time ago about how hard is it to make a demo and also cost wise. No names but the game is Strategic Command which has a demo for every one of their series.
I was told [hopefully correctly] that making a demo was very easy, you take the first 8 or 9 moves of the actual game and put it on a demo for download and let the paying consumers judge if they like the game or not.

But I now realize the demo could be slightly misleading because the fixes or enhancements would not be in that demo, I guess it's a tough call. Again I say with common sense about demo's, how many games that are on our never play again shelf would have been purchased if we had seen a demo? Just an opinion.

Bo





< Message edited by flanyboy -- 8/3/2013 4:06:55 AM >

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 28
RE: Demo's - 8/3/2013 4:13:41 AM   
flanyboy

 

Posts: 1453
Joined: 11/30/2006
Status: offline
Wrong thread

< Message edited by flanyboy -- 8/3/2013 4:14:41 AM >

(in reply to bo)
Post #: 29
RE: Demo's - 8/3/2013 4:23:13 AM   
bo

 

Posts: 4182
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Forge of Freedom was the first deal of the week.

Hi Aurelian

Do not understand the post, are you saying FoF was on sale this week?

Bo

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 30
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