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Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 2:33:13 PM   
MrBlizzard


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I'm experiencing heavy operations losses for my transport planes. I'm wondering if it's normal and is the same for you? E.g. I'm In october 42 and I've lost 40!! pilots for each of my L3Y2 sentai (and a bigger number of planes of course).
I've trained pilots in transport mission and they're more than 60 now but I cannot stop losses. every 2 missions my sentais lose a pilot for operations (no interceptions, no AA). It's really more than I can afford!!!
Any advice? What are your stats?
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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 2:38:14 PM   
dr.hal


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There are a number of factors that might come into play. The biggest is with your opponent. Is your opponent stationing a long distance CAP over the base or hex you are trying to supply???? Interdiction is the name of the game here.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 3:11:12 PM   
MrBlizzard


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Thanks Hal, you're always present!
The answer is no, no enemy CAP at all, my opponent has done a Sir Robin strategy and his planes heve simply disappeared, hidden somewhere...
there must be something different to explain all these accidents

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 3:24:31 PM   
pws1225

 

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Pilot fatigue is another possibility. Do they get a rest every now and then so they aren't worn out.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 3:33:03 PM   
Cpt Sherwood

 

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Check air base size. If they under sized at either end I believe you will get increased ops losses.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 3:34:07 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Not just the pilots need rest the airframes do as well. Many people forget that part. Machines do fall apart without proper rest and care too

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 3:51:00 PM   
MrBlizzard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood

Check air base size. If they under sized at either end I believe you will get increased ops losses.

Ok , how big has to be a AF for 2E transport planes ?

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 3:55:22 PM   
cohimbra


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Another thing: at what altitude your TP planes operate? In my previous campaign I've horrible losses
when setting mission altitude at 6.000; but losses decreases a lot when I ordered to fly at higher
altitude, 9.000/10.000 (and in my opinion, pilot's fatigue MUST stay under 20-25, whit a/c fatigue under
40/45). Regards.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 4:16:43 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

I'm experiencing heavy operations losses for my transport planes. I'm wondering if it's normal and is the same for you? E.g. I'm In october 42 and I've lost 40!! pilots for each of my L3Y2 sentai (and a bigger number of planes of course).
I've trained pilots in transport mission and they're more than 60 now but I cannot stop losses. every 2 missions my sentais lose a pilot for operations (no interceptions, no AA). It's really more than I can afford!!!
Any advice? What are your stats?



compared to combat both nav search and transport produce an almost crazy rate of op losses. My Catalinas on search for example are within the highest numbers of aircraft (probably the highest when going with loss per employed aircraft). No, they are not flying extended - not even max normal - range, no, not all are flying - usually 60% - and no, the pilots are not overfatigued and no, I am not losing them to enemy Cap over enemy territory.

Like transports, they just drop out of the sky like flies.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 4:23:48 PM   
tigercub


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AF size 4 is best, size 3 if the need high but losses will go up. bigger the better...as you would guess.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 4:47:54 PM   
dr.hal


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Most of the folks above have covered all the other "things" I was thinking of. But that loss rate does seem to be high but we don't know "out of how many" the loss rate is about. What was your "N" in mathematical terms? I too have lost C-47s trying supply. My rate was high if it was parachuted in and high when the fight was on extended range. Hal

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 5:42:02 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Most of the folks above have covered all the other "things" I was thinking of. But that loss rate does seem to be high but we don't know "out of how many" the loss rate is about. What was your "N" in mathematical terms? I too have lost C-47s trying supply. My rate was high if it was parachuted in and high when the fight was on extended range. Hal


Patrol and transport planes, at least Allied, have low durability ratings compared to other multi-engine. They have rates comaprable to many fighters. But fighters are usually shot down before durability becomes an issue. Patrol planes can fly for two years withoiut being shot at. That's always been my assumption at least. Combined with total hexes flown, which might affect airframe fatigue; rest is usually assiged by pilot fatigiue, not airframe, and since patrol and transport don't engage in combat thier pilots don't accumulate fatigue as fast.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 6:46:24 PM   
Cpt Sherwood

 

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For patrol aircraft, I fly them at 10,000 feet to avoid the medium flak. 25mm has a ceiling of 7,000 and 40mm a ceiling of 9,000. I feel this will cut down on ops losses due to damage from flak.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 6:54:23 PM   
DaveConn

 

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In addition to what others have mentioned, remember to keep a watch on weather at the origination and destination airports; from my experience, that can have a major effect on ops losses. When I am flying supplies "over the hump", I usually stand down if the weather is bad at either end (also allows rest for pilots and airframes).

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 7:01:59 PM   
Sredni

 

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none of the things mentioned in this thread matter much for normal unopposed operation of transport aircraft. In the end no matter what you do, your transport groups will see ops losses that far exceed any other type of aircraft. (if the enemy is capping a base you're trying to transport to/from then you'll see the normal ops losses plus additional losses due to the cap).

Just accept this inevitability, adjust your operations tempo to account for production of transport aircraft, and don't worry about training their pilots (since you'll lose them in droves anyways, and transport skill doesn't seem to do anything).

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 7:24:57 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

none of the things mentioned in this thread matter much for normal unopposed operation of transport aircraft. In the end no matter what you do, your transport groups will see ops losses that far exceed any other type of aircraft. (if the enemy is capping a base you're trying to transport to/from then you'll see the normal ops losses plus additional losses due to the cap).

Just accept this inevitability, adjust your operations tempo to account for production of transport aircraft, and don't worry about training their pilots (since you'll lose them in droves anyways, and transport skill doesn't seem to do anything).


This is the kind of post that sends newbies off to die.

I would be shocked if transport skill did not correlate with lower ops losses.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 7:50:34 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

none of the things mentioned in this thread matter much for normal unopposed operation of transport aircraft. In the end no matter what you do, your transport groups will see ops losses that far exceed any other type of aircraft. (if the enemy is capping a base you're trying to transport to/from then you'll see the normal ops losses plus additional losses due to the cap).

Just accept this inevitability, adjust your operations tempo to account for production of transport aircraft, and don't worry about training their pilots (since you'll lose them in droves anyways, and transport skill doesn't seem to do anything).


This is the kind of post that sends newbies off to die.

I would be shocked if transport skill did not correlate with lower ops losses.


Same. When I use my transport squadrons, I work to minimize pilot and plane fatigue. This means:

-as short a distance as possible between origin/destination bases
-as many pilots as possible
-as much aviation support as I can spare

Of course, this applies to more than just transport units...

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 7:58:56 PM   
ny59giants


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Op losses will come from distance/range they fly.
If you are flying at extended ranges, there will be more.
AF size flying from.
Leader of air group. Having a really lousy leader will effect op losses.
Setting - do you have 10 to 20% set on Rest?? When I fly my PBYs on Naval Search, I have 20 to 30% on Rest. Even transport planes and pilots get fatigued. Check on the "Planes" in the bottom left hand corner to see how each plane is.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/28/2013 9:03:57 PM   
Yaab


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PaxMondo, post 12
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2826398&mpage=1&key=obvert%2CBangkok�

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/29/2013 12:06:11 AM   
jcjordan

 

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I've experienced what the OP had posted in my game & I'm in mar 46 but they were never of much use to me other than maybe a few paradrops so basically sat out & trained the whole war. Only thing I can say is that it might have to do w/ pilot exp & it's much harder for any non fighter unit to gain pilot exp so ops losses can be higher. My only other explanation might be something in the a/c durablity & "die" rolls are off w/ mission type.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/29/2013 4:36:39 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

I'm experiencing heavy operations losses for my transport planes. I'm wondering if it's normal and is the same for you? E.g. I'm In october 42 and I've lost 40!! pilots for each of my L3Y2 sentai (and a bigger number of planes of course).
I've trained pilots in transport mission and they're more than 60 now but I cannot stop losses. every 2 missions my sentais lose a pilot for operations (no interceptions, no AA). It's really more than I can afford!!!
Any advice? What are your stats?



compared to combat both nav search and transport produce an almost crazy rate of op losses. My Catalinas on search for example are within the highest numbers of aircraft (probably the highest when going with loss per employed aircraft). No, they are not flying extended - not even max normal - range, no, not all are flying - usually 60% - and no, the pilots are not overfatigued and no, I am not losing them to enemy Cap over enemy territory.

Like transports, they just drop out of the sky like flies.


This always amazes me. I know we have discussed it before but I just don't experience the same Op loss rate as you have. Not really sure why but I have better stocks of patrol planes than most any other. Search over heavily capped carrier forces kill off a lot of planes but the OP losses for me have not been great. I pretty much set search squadrons and forget about it. I just use 40% naval search and no other settings and keep the altitude at about 10-15k. Never has been a problem. Strange.


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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/29/2013 8:35:13 AM   
MrBlizzard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

PaxMondo, post 12
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2826398&mpage=1&key=obvert%2CBangkok�

Thanks, tests made by Pax are very very interesting, I used to keep max number of pilots, only 10% in rest and never flighted extended range : it seemed enough to me 'cause pilots fatigue didn't appear so high (15-20%), so similar to other types of planes (fighters, bombers , etc) with normal rate of operations losses.
From Pax test appears that air support must be 50% more than necessary and pilots fatigue must be under 8% for transport pilots !!
It's very low value... it means you always have to keep in rest 30-40% of pilots, but if it is the only way....
Edit: Just some numbers: My 2 sentai of L3Y2 have flown less than 120 missions till now and have lost 40 and 47 pilots...all for operations problems! I just have some 5 original prewar pilots left for each sentai, all the others are dead!!!

< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 5/29/2013 8:52:30 AM >

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 5/29/2013 1:33:30 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

PaxMondo, post 12
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2826398&mpage=1&key=obvert%2CBangkok?

Thanks, tests made by Pax are very very interesting, I used to keep max number of pilots, only 10% in rest and never flighted extended range : it seemed enough to me 'cause pilots fatigue didn't appear so high (15-20%), so similar to other types of planes (fighters, bombers , etc) with normal rate of operations losses.
From Pax test appears that air support must be 50% more than necessary and pilots fatigue must be under 8% for transport pilots !!
It's very low value... it means you always have to keep in rest 30-40% of pilots, but if it is the only way....
Edit: Just some numbers: My 2 sentai of L3Y2 have flown less than 120 missions till now and have lost 40 and 47 pilots...all for operations problems! I just have some 5 original prewar pilots left for each sentai, all the others are dead!!!


The FOWed numbers I see for my opponent in PBEM shows his Mavis models have huge ops losses in comparison to some others.

Interesting that you think 15-20% fatigue isn't "so high." I sure do. When I get even 5-6 out of 30 pilots at 20% I up the Rest.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 11/21/2018 6:40:03 AM   
Yaab


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Thread resurrection.


The high Ops losses also affect bomber aircraft flying transport missions.

I am playing scen 100 as Allied against Jap AI. It is December ,1941 (no surprise here). I use a special rule for New Guinea, where all bases are set to stockpile supplies, so the only way to move supplies between bases is either by aircraft or ship. I use Wirraway light bombers to fly transport missions from Port Moresby to Wau (4 hexes away), 30% Rest. The missions fly every day, but when I checked the Wirraway unit after one week, the unit was missing three aircraft (1/4 of the unit!) due to Ops losses. There was no message in Op/Combat reports about the mysterious loss.

Scratched my head and I think I found the culprit. When you fly continuos transport operations with transport/bomber aircraft, STAND DOWN your whole flying armada every time the weather forecast for both bases reads either R(ain) or T(hunderstorms). Only fly in C(lear), P(artly Cloudy), and O(vercast) weather. Seems R and T weather test against pilot EXP in handling aircraft in adverse weather conditions. There was a short spell of T weather over New Guinea, and it cost me. No problems with excessive Ops losses since I started standing the units down in R and T weather.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 11/21/2018 7:31:01 AM >

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 11/21/2018 9:07:39 AM   
adarbrauner

 

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MMMM....interesting home rule man!

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 11/21/2018 9:44:10 AM   
Encircled


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Stopped patrol ops losses by flying at 50% rest and dropping the maximum range by about three hexes

Have slowed down transport losses by having a 30% rest but in both cases its 1944 now and I actually have planes to spare and a bit less of the ocean to cover. Not sure I could get away with it in 1942 to be honest when the need is a lot more urgent.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 11/22/2018 7:18:56 AM   
Yaab


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Well, I put mine at 30% rest, and the destination was 4 hexes away. The leader was as average as one can get (all stats at 50 or just above). The Wirraway still flew in T weather, 3 aircraft lost and one pilot killed. No mention of losses in ops/combat report. I called it quits and from now on I stand down all my bombers/transports on Supply missions in R/T weather. I guess you need high EXP to fly in bad weather without ops losses.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 11/22/2018 7:19:55 AM >

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 11/22/2018 3:37:14 PM   
BBfanboy


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Are you counting "Severe Storms" as thunderstorm weather?
What about "Extreme Overcast"?. I don't like flying into a base with that weather unless it is a 7+ AF (with landing aids) and non-mountainous. I don't use transports so heavily so most of my experience is with bombers returning from missions (often damaged) or transferring to other bases.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 11/22/2018 8:00:33 PM   
Yaab


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Manual is vague on "Severe storms".

Manual LIGHT p.224.
"The forecast levels from best weather to worst are clear, partly cloudy, overcast, rain (snow in cold zones in winter), and thunderstorms (blizzard in cold zones in winter)"

"Extreme overcast"- good catch. I would fly and try to monitor the losses.

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RE: Transport planes operational losses - 11/27/2018 1:04:30 PM   
Yaab


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Well, just lost one Wirraway (Ops written off) and pilot WIA for having flown in C(Clear weather)! I bet TRANSPORT missions are cursed in the code by the RNG gods.

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