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defensive ground strike vs defence ground support

 
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defensive ground strike vs defence ground support - 5/20/2013 9:09:10 PM   
michaelbaldur


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is it a good idea to use defensive ground strike. to flip units that can attack you next impulse or keep the units fixed in that section of the line ..

or is it better to save your planes/Guns for the enemy attack

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RE: defensive ground strike vs defence ground support - 5/21/2013 12:13:32 AM   
paulderynck


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Works best with Arty in a Land as long as you have some spare re-org points in range.

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RE: defensive ground strike vs defence ground support - 5/21/2013 4:28:49 AM   
brian brian

 

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a very good question with no one answer.

using air power in WiF changes greatly if you are using Fractional Odds. With that rule in play, probably defensive ground support is a better choice, though not the best choice in every situation. When a single point of air can lower the odds column, that is the way to go. Without Fractionals in play, all of the lower factor planes (less than 3) are definitely better on ground support than ground strike.

[But, I haven't played without Fractional Odds since the rule came out, and I would probably want to use it in other games that use a d10. I bought a game this winter in the 21st century edition of the Great Battles of the American Civil War system (Stone's River) that uses 1d10 now..... but I don't think the combat system uses odds. Haven't read the rules yet.]


It also depends on the balance of air power on a given front, how late in the turn it is, and how mobile the front is. Using defensive bombers in Russia is a different question than using them elsewhere.

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RE: defensive ground strike vs defence ground support - 5/21/2013 4:29:40 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


is it a good idea to use defensive ground strike. to flip units that can attack you next impulse or keep the units fixed in that section of the line ..

or is it better to save your planes/Guns for the enemy attack

Depends on a lot of items.

If there are 3 enemy units in the hex, then that is better than there being 1 in the hex.

If there are enemy fighters that can intercept, then that's usually not good - hence Paul's recommendation to use artillery that cannot be intercepted. And he wants to be able to reorganize the artillery so it isn't disorganized should it be attacked.

If you can reorganize the bombers after they have flown the ground strike, then you can have them available for ground support too!

How far into the turn are we? If the turn is going to go on for a long time, then are the air units that fly the ground strike going to be overrun later? But conversely, if you disorganize an enemy unit early in the turn, then that unit's not going to be active for the whole turn (unless it gets reorganized).

And, as always, "Do you feel lucky?"

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RE: defensive ground strike vs defence ground support - 5/21/2013 5:08:56 AM   
brian brian

 

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I meant to type _without_ using Fractionals, Defensive Ground Support is a much better choice. Bring in the Fighter-Bombers on every combat where the odds are exact...

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RE: defensive ground strike vs defence ground support - 5/21/2013 5:44:15 PM   
Centuur


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It depends on the situation and the targets available.

HQ's without FTR cover are good for defensive groundstrikes. Stop the HQ and you are making things difficult for the other side.
Otherwise I think it is generally speaking better to save the planes for defensive ground support.

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RE: defensive ground strike vs defence ground support - 5/24/2013 1:52:28 PM   
AstroBlues

 

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I wonder using the 2D10 table if there is somehow a trade-off between flipping units to get a +2 to using offensive ground support?

ron

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RE: defensive ground strike vs defence ground support - 5/24/2013 5:58:08 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronster

I wonder using the 2D10 table if there is somehow a trade-off between flipping units to get a +2 to using offensive ground support?

ron

That's a straight forward calculation, although it involves the probability of the ground strikes being successful. Those calculations the AI Opponent will be able to make precisely, which will be one of its primary advantages over human opponents.

EDIT: I should add that the AIO will have specific goals in mind for each land combat: clearing the hex of enemy units/destroying enemy units/retreating enemy units/taking minimal attacker casualties/attacking units staying organized/getting a B* result to put enemy units out of supply. While every attacker wants to get B* results for every attack, correctly assessing the importance/value of lesser results is crucial to success in WIF (in my opinion).

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RE: defensive ground strike vs defence ground support - 5/24/2013 6:43:10 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ronster

I wonder using the 2D10 table if there is somehow a trade-off between flipping units to get a +2 to using offensive ground support?

ron

A +2 DRM is one odds shift. So the greater the number of defensive factors, the better you are to ground strike than to ground support. FREX a defending stack has 15 factors. You would need 15 ground support factors to clear in, to get an extra plus 2. But those same factors ground striking could give you an additional +4 or even +5.

Of course another problem is action limits. FREX in a CW Land Action you only get 2 air missions that can be used for ground striking whereas ground support is only limited by what's in range of the hex to be attacked.



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RE: defensive ground strike vs defence ground support - 5/25/2013 5:18:42 AM   
brian brian

 

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another way to look at it is this....say a defending unit has 5 factors, and you have a 5 factor Stuka nearby. a ground strike would be stupid.....only a 50% chance of gaining a +2 on the attack. but a 5 factor Stuka added to a land attack on a 5 factor defender is an automatic increase of one odds level, i.e. +2 on the 2d10 table.

or let's say you are in command of the 1939 Japanese Army Air Force, and you have 4 planes with tactical factors of 2, 1, 1, & 1 in range of a 5 factor Chinese INF Army in the mountains that you want to attack. using all 4 planes on a ground strike is perhaps a 26.34243762% chance of success? (I don't know cumulative odds statistics and just typed in a random # there). but throw the 4 planes in as ground support, and the 5 factors of air are an automatic +1 against 10 defense factors.

but of course the original question is about using air on the defense....a bit different

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RE: defensive ground strike vs defence ground support - 5/25/2013 5:53:43 PM   
paulderynck


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Three ones and a two hit chances:

Against 1 unit: Hit: 41.7% Miss: 58.3%

Against 2 units: Hit 1: 48.6% Hit 2: 17.4% Miss both: 34%

Against 3 units: Hit 1: 42.5% Hit 2: 30.4% Hit 3: 7.2% Miss all 3: 19.8%

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RE: defensive ground strike vs defence ground support - 5/25/2013 6:38:01 PM   
michaelbaldur


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the reason I like defensive ground strike is that you have the initiative. you decided what stacks you fly to. and which enemy units you want to flip.

when using defensive ground support. the attacker more or less decide where you fight.

you can use defensive ground strike in one area to help you make counter attacks in another part of the line.

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RE: defensive ground strike vs defence ground support - 5/26/2013 5:21:11 AM   
brian brian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Three ones and a two hit chances:

Against 1 unit: Hit: 41.7% Miss: 58.3%

Against 2 units: Hit 1: 48.6% Hit 2: 17.4% Miss both: 34%

Against 3 units: Hit 1: 42.5% Hit 2: 30.4% Hit 3: 7.2% Miss all 3: 19.8%



thanks man! what is the formula for that?

Steve is right, the AI will have an advantage on me for that...... but will the AI be able to plan to shift it's air force to another part of the front on time for a devious plan involving next turn's reinforcements?

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RE: defensive ground strike vs defence ground support - 5/26/2013 10:08:48 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Three ones and a two hit chances:

Against 1 unit: Hit: 41.7% Miss: 58.3%

Against 2 units: Hit 1: 48.6% Hit 2: 17.4% Miss both: 34%

Against 3 units: Hit 1: 42.5% Hit 2: 30.4% Hit 3: 7.2% Miss all 3: 19.8%



thanks man! what is the formula for that?


The easiest case is one unit. To miss you have to miss with all, which has a probability of 0.9 to the power of 3 times 0.8.

The probability of hitting is then 1 minus the probability of missing.

For the others, you have to work out the probabilities of each possible outcome. Edit: If they add up to one, you likely did it right, although with the last one the rounding to a tenth of the percentage is what caused it to add up to 99.9%.


< Message edited by paulderynck -- 5/26/2013 10:10:05 PM >


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