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Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing.

 
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Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/19/2013 2:28:26 PM   
wodin


Posts: 10367
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/19/the-flare-path-indecent-proposal/#more-150192

I agree with Tim. Thats all I can say on the matter.

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Post #: 1
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/19/2013 3:11:32 PM   
Ranger33

 

Posts: 557
Joined: 8/11/2012
Status: offline
I think when it comes to older titles, things should definitely be re-evaluated. There are probably two dozen titles on Matrix that have caught my eye when browsing, but price + date of release + no demo = no purchase. I can't justify spending $30-40 on something like that when I'm not really sure what I'm getting, except that I know it's probably outdated. I have bought a couple like that, but won't be doing so in the future, having learned my lesson.

New titles are a different matter. I have my eye on Command: Modern Air/Naval Ops, and I know it will be on the pricey side, but I know I'm getting the the flagship title of that genre for the next decade or so, so I can justify it.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 2
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/19/2013 3:31:40 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 2839
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
It would be great to point to better business models, but what? Avalon Hill... out of business. SPI... out of business. Even here at Matrix, some developers pop up with interesting titles and make a buck and then fade away into oblivion. It's a tough business with niche computer wargames and all the programming involved. Plus graphics, pbem, tcp/ip, NetPlay and other stuff to be compatible across multiple platforms and operating systems. It's tough to make a living off this stuff except for a few like Tiller and Grigsby and others; the rest usually have day jobs and a real life to go home to. So, I don't know.

FWIW I'll recount a couple of stories from folks I know who lived in London for several years. In one case they liked to buy a popular product from a store and one day it wasn't there anymore. The reason cited was that it kept selling out so the store owner discontinued it. In the other case they saw a piece of furniture remaining from a 3-piece set, a discontinued set, and offered to buy it. The offer was refused, because if the store owner sold the last piece there wouldn't be anything left to display. Really?? Hopefully Iain did not attend British business school.

(in reply to Ranger33)
Post #: 3
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/19/2013 4:56:51 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 4019
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
He's right about one thing. It *is* blather.

Stick with game reviews.

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(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 4
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/19/2013 6:53:06 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 42198
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
I really do not understand why peeps are getting so upset. If I have this right:

- Matrix / Slitherine buy the rights to a game
- They choose to sell said game at x
- X happens to be higher than the price you can get said game elsewhere currently

So?

Matrix / Slitherine have paid for the game, they can do what they want re the pricing - its their product to do with as they wish. If they have the market right, people will continue to buy. If they have it wrong, then sales will not materialise and they will have thrown money down the drain.

What is the issue??

If you were lucky to buy at the cheaper price - well done
If you didn't, but want the game, then decide if you are willing to pay the price asked. If yes then go purchase, if no then do not.

Why do people think they have a right to dictate the price a company can sell a product at?

Am I missing something here??

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 5
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/19/2013 8:34:46 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2464
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I really do not understand why peeps are getting so upset. If I have this right:

- Matrix / Slitherine buy the rights to a game
- They choose to sell said game at x
- X happens to be higher than the price you can get said game elsewhere currently

So?

Matrix / Slitherine have paid for the game, they can do what they want re the pricing - its their product to do with as they wish. If they have the market right, people will continue to buy. If they have it wrong, then sales will not materialise and they will have thrown money down the drain.

What is the issue??

If you were lucky to buy at the cheaper price - well done
If you didn't, but want the game, then decide if you are willing to pay the price asked. If yes then go purchase, if no then do not.

Why do people think they have a right to dictate the price a company can sell a product at?

Am I missing something here??


Warspite1,

No, you are not missing anything. You have it spot on already.

Best wishes,
Steve


_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 6
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/19/2013 8:46:55 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 4019
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I really do not understand why peeps are getting so upset. If I have this right:

- Matrix / Slitherine buy the rights to a game
- They choose to sell said game at x
- X happens to be higher than the price you can get said game elsewhere currently

So?

Matrix / Slitherine have paid for the game, they can do what they want re the pricing - its their product to do with as they wish. If they have the market right, people will continue to buy. If they have it wrong, then sales will not materialise and they will have thrown money down the drain.

What is the issue??

If you were lucky to buy at the cheaper price - well done
If you didn't, but want the game, then decide if you are willing to pay the price asked. If yes then go purchase, if no then do not.

Why do people think they have a right to dictate the price a company can sell a product at?

Am I missing something here??


Warspite1,

No, you are not missing anything. You have it spot on already.

Best wishes,
Steve



Straddled and hit the target on the first salvo.

_____________________________


(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 7
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/19/2013 8:51:21 PM   
budd


Posts: 2879
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: online
It's just games, I don't get worked up about it. They price how they see fit and i buy as i see fit. I am of the opinion that they do themselves a disservice with the prices of there back catalog though, but's that's their business.

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 8
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 1:48:51 AM   
Rtwfreak

 

Posts: 381
Joined: 12/11/2011
Status: offline
quote:

¡gThe sales you have been trained to expect only benefit the store selling them as they vie for market share. They do not benefit the publisher or developer and the industry press is finally realising that and there is the start of a move away from these sales. We never believed in them and are being proved right.h


I haven't seen anything in the "mainstream" media that backs that statement. In fact there's more and more sales each week now than ever before. There's the daily sale the midweek sale and then always the weekend sales along with the daily sale and sale of the week.

(in reply to budd)
Post #: 9
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 1:53:57 AM   
Rtwfreak

 

Posts: 381
Joined: 12/11/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: **budd**

It's just games, I don't get worked up about it. They price how they see fit and i buy as i see fit. I am of the opinion that they do themselves a disservice with the prices of there back catalog though, but's that's their business.


I agree with you they are "just games" it's not like we have to depend on them for our lives or lifestyle and there's plenty of other games throughout the year to keep us entertained until December when we finally get a sale from them. I have been fortunate to get the majority of Matrixgames/Slitherine games I own through Ebay over the years for 50% of the retail price or less or from other discount sites like Gamersgate from those developers that also had separate delivery rights with other companies. So you can get good discounts you just have to search for them or ask around.

(in reply to budd)
Post #: 10
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 3:30:46 AM   
rodney727


Posts: 1477
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline
It's just the fact that some people who work in retail feel cheated and to be honest feel kinda slighted by slitherines business methods. I would rate their customer service skills a 2/10 with one being the lowest. For example when game "r". Is being sold for years at a price of $10 or much cheaper and then sells the rights to company "s" then company "s" then sells the game for in some cases 10x then a lot of people paid for it. The "INFAMOUS EASTER EGG SALE" is just once example of their great customer service skills and retail experience . In fact I am going to use this in a meeting on how not to "ALIENATE YOUR CUSTOMERS". I could go on...but it's pointless on here.




quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I really do not understand why peeps are getting so upset. If I have this right:

- Matrix / Slitherine buy the rights to a game
- They choose to sell said game at x
- X happens to be higher than the price you can get said game elsewhere currently

So?

Matrix / Slitherine have paid for the game, they can do what they want re the pricing - its their product to do with as they wish. If they have the market right, people will continue to buy. If they have it wrong, then sales will not materialise and they will have thrown money down the drain.

What is the issue??

If you were lucky to buy at the cheaper price - well done
If you didn't, but want the game, then decide if you are willing to pay the price asked. If yes then go purchase, if no then do not.

Why do people think they have a right to dictate the price a company can sell a product at?

Am I missing something here??



_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 11
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 3:32:26 AM   
rodney727


Posts: 1477
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline
Sorry no not really.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I really do not understand why peeps are getting so upset. If I have this right:

- Matrix / Slitherine buy the rights to a game
- They choose to sell said game at x
- X happens to be higher than the price you can get said game elsewhere currently

So?

Matrix / Slitherine have paid for the game, they can do what they want re the pricing - its their product to do with as they wish. If they have the market right, people will continue to buy. If they have it wrong, then sales will not materialise and they will have thrown money down the drain.

What is the issue??

If you were lucky to buy at the cheaper price - well done
If you didn't, but want the game, then decide if you are willing to pay the price asked. If yes then go purchase, if no then do not.

Why do people think they have a right to dictate the price a company can sell a product at?

Am I missing something here??


Warspite1,

No, you are not missing anything. You have it spot on already.

Best wishes,
Steve



Straddled and hit the target on the first salvo.



_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 12
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 3:56:18 AM   
rodney727


Posts: 1477
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline
Thanks wodin. I really do feel justified now. Sorry but I'm not a "yes man". I always question. Makes me a better human being.
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/19/the-flare-path-indecent-proposal/#more-150192

I agree with Tim. Thats all I can say on the matter.



_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 13
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 4:28:56 AM   
shunwick


Posts: 2464
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Sorry no not really.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I really do not understand why peeps are getting so upset. If I have this right:

- Matrix / Slitherine buy the rights to a game
- They choose to sell said game at x
- X happens to be higher than the price you can get said game elsewhere currently

So?

Matrix / Slitherine have paid for the game, they can do what they want re the pricing - its their product to do with as they wish. If they have the market right, people will continue to buy. If they have it wrong, then sales will not materialise and they will have thrown money down the drain.

What is the issue??

If you were lucky to buy at the cheaper price - well done
If you didn't, but want the game, then decide if you are willing to pay the price asked. If yes then go purchase, if no then do not.

Why do people think they have a right to dictate the price a company can sell a product at?

Am I missing something here??


Warspite1,

No, you are not missing anything. You have it spot on already.

Best wishes,
Steve



Straddled and hit the target on the first salvo.




Rogo727,

You believe that people should have the right to dictate to a company what they should sell a product for?

Best wishes,
Steve

_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to rodney727)
Post #: 14
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 4:45:58 AM   
rodney727


Posts: 1477
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline
No. You like many others on here are missing the point. The case in point is they bought this game rights at X dollars. They calculated probably several price points in "which to get there money back from this game". THEY DID NOT RESEARCH THE MARKET. They didn't know this game was being sold for a much lower price not for a day or months but years! If they stated this at the start I wouldn't have said anything at all. So yes when a company acts in this matter I always speak out. I'm not the only one who feels this way. Folks when the top "three" are regulated to handling customer relations you are going to have problems.
quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Sorry no not really.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I really do not understand why peeps are getting so upset. If I have this right:

- Matrix / Slitherine buy the rights to a game
- They choose to sell said game at x
- X happens to be higher than the price you can get said game elsewhere currently

So?

Matrix / Slitherine have paid for the game, they can do what they want re the pricing - its their product to do with as they wish. If they have the market right, people will continue to buy. If they have it wrong, then sales will not materialise and they will have thrown money down the drain.

What is the issue??

If you were lucky to buy at the cheaper price - well done
If you didn't, but want the game, then decide if you are willing to pay the price asked. If yes then go purchase, if no then do not.

Why do people think they have a right to dictate the price a company can sell a product at?

Am I missing something here??


Warspite1,

No, you are not missing anything. You have it spot on already.

Best wishes,
Steve



Straddled and hit the target on the first salvo.




Rogo727,

You believe that people should have the right to dictate to a company what they should sell a product for?

Best wishes,
Steve



_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 15
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 4:46:04 AM   
barkman44

 

Posts: 344
Joined: 1/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Sorry no not really.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I really do not understand why peeps are getting so upset. If I have this right:

- Matrix / Slitherine buy the rights to a game
- They choose to sell said game at x
- X happens to be higher than the price you can get said game elsewhere currently

So?

Matrix / Slitherine have paid for the game, they can do what they want re the pricing - its their product to do with as they wish. If they have the market right, people will continue to buy. If they have it wrong, then sales will not materialise and they will have thrown money down the drain.

What is the issue??

If you were lucky to buy at the cheaper price - well done
If you didn't, but want the game, then decide if you are willing to pay the price asked. If yes then go purchase, if no then do not.

Why do people think they have a right to dictate the price a company can sell a product at?

Am I missing something here??


Warspite1,

No, you are not missing anything. You have it spot on already.

Best wishes,
Steve



Straddled and hit the target on the first salvo.




Rogo727,

You believe that people should have the right to dictate to a company what they should sell a product for?

Best wishes,
Steve

We do,it's called the free market.
If the price is considered unreasonable it won't be purchased.
That will eventually dictate the price.

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 16
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 5:02:19 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 4019
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
It will be by those who find the price reasonable.

It will be who have an interest in the period.

$1.99 is a ridiculous price and is not sustainable.

_____________________________


(in reply to barkman44)
Post #: 17
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 5:10:53 AM   
rodney727


Posts: 1477
Joined: 7/12/2011
From: Iowa
Status: offline
Again missing the point here..... Truth is 95% of the people who wanted to buy this probably already had. The only way now to make money from this game is to lower the price or make new add ons for it, at this point in time they aren't .

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

It will be by those who find the price reasonable.

It will be who have an interest in the period.

$1.99 is a ridiculous price and is not sustainable.



_____________________________

"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 18
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 6:10:34 AM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2545
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
I'm not buying much Matrix Games, mostly due to the prices.

Actually, I have bought only one - Battles from the Bulge - but only because NWS was selling it at lower price. I wouldn't be able to afford buying it in the Matrix Games Store.
Too bad that NWS no longer sells Matrix Games games.

I also bought WPO, BiN and BiI but I got them from bargain bin for 5pln each.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to rodney727)
Post #: 19
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 7:37:39 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 42198
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Again missing the point here..... Truth is 95% of the people who wanted to buy this probably already had. The only way now to make money from this game is to lower the price or make new add ons for it, at this point in time they aren't .

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

It will be by those who find the price reasonable.

It will be who have an interest in the period.

$1.99 is a ridiculous price and is not sustainable.


warspite1

rogo727 with respect the point is not being missed at all. I do not know the detail of what % of people who want the game have bought it already (you say 95%), I do not know the economics of what Matrix paid and what they need to get their money back. Furthermore I do not know to what extent Matrix research was flawed (if indeed it was). But I do not need to know any of this stuff.

I am not putting my money into buying the rights - they are. They (the shareholders and management) are taking the risks, putting up the cash - in return for which they have the right to set the price and make decisions on the future of the game. That's just how things work.

We as consumers have a simple choice. Do we buy at the price quoted or not? If, as you suggest, Matrix have got this all wrong, then the price will no doubt come down again as they try and get as much money back as possible. If they have their strategy right then it won't.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to rodney727)
Post #: 20
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 8:24:35 AM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 4019
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

We as consumers have a simple choice. Do we buy at the price quoted or not? If, as you suggest, Matrix have got this all wrong, then the price will no doubt come down again as they try and get as much money back as possible. If they have their strategy right then it won't.



Or it could join the list of discontinued games.

I don't know what his point is. He owns the game already. He can *suggest* Matrix got it wrong. But without the market research et al that they have, it is all baseless speculation.

_____________________________


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 21
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 9:41:00 AM   
tevans6220

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/3/2005
Status: offline
Guys, I think a lot of you are missing the point. We aren't talking about a brand spanking new game here. PON is three years old. At release I paid $19.99 for it. Whether Ageod/Paradox or whoever was sustainable at that price is really not my concern. They asked the price and I paid it. Three years ago. And let's be honest. At release PON had a lot of problems and still does. For Slitherine/Matrix to now ask $24.99 for a three year old game which still has problems is a little questionable to me. Let's also not forget the fact that PON has been sold for very low prices right up until just recently. Keep in mind that anybody who really wanted to buy the game probably did already. How many more sales of PON do they think they're going to get? Especially when people find out that it was sold cheaper elsewhere and that Slitherine/Matrix raised the price.

Slitherine/Matrix has a huge problem with pricing. Not only with their older games but with a lot of their games. With today's economy asking $60, $70, $80 or more for a computer game is a little ridiculous. Especially games that are 5+ years old. Add to that the fact that most of the Slitherine/Matrix catalog are works in progress and it makes it even more ridiculous. I have games that I bought at least 3 years ago that are still being patched for bugs (EiA, WiTE, WiTP AE just to name a few). Patches that add features or allow the games to work with new video cards or OS'es are understandable. But you would think bugs could be found and fixed in a reasonable amount of time. I'm not saying I expect 100% bugfree software when I make a purchase. That's impossible. But I don't want to be a guinea pig or paying beta tester either.

The last thing I'd like to point out is that just because one pay's a higher price for something doesn't mean they hold it in higher value. Case in point WiTP and WiTE. $80 games. I almost feel obligated to play them just so I won't feel as though I wasted my money. EiA is a different story. $70 game. And in my opinion it's junk. I wasted my money. Almost 6 years after release and it's still buggy. PON, which started this whole uproar, released 3 years ago and I still can't get it to play at a reasonable speed even with a quad core system. I thought it was a bad game 3 years ago and got banned from Paradox forums for saying so. I really think I'm done with computer gaming. Prices are too high for something that won't last 20 or 30 years. I seriously doubt I'll be able to play any current computer game 20 or 30 years from now. It almost seems like a waste of good money. On the other hand, books and boardgames if kept in good condition can last a lifetime. I wish Slitherine/Matrix the best of luck but they've got their last dime from me. High prices and works in progress are enough for me to walk away.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 22
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 9:58:42 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 42198
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

Guys, I think a lot of you are missing the point. We aren't talking about a brand spanking new game here. PON is three years old. At release I paid $19.99 for it. Whether Ageod/Paradox or whoever was sustainable at that price is really not my concern. They asked the price and I paid it. Three years ago. And let's be honest. At release PON had a lot of problems and still does. For Slitherine/Matrix to now ask $24.99 for a three year old game which still has problems is a little questionable to me. Let's also not forget the fact that PON has been sold for very low prices right up until just recently. Keep in mind that anybody who really wanted to buy the game probably did already. How many more sales of PON do they think they're going to get? Especially when people find out that it was sold cheaper elsewhere and that Slitherine/Matrix raised the price.

Slitherine/Matrix has a huge problem with pricing. Not only with their older games but with a lot of their games. With today's economy asking $60, $70, $80 or more for a computer game is a little ridiculous. Especially games that are 5+ years old. Add to that the fact that most of the Slitherine/Matrix catalog are works in progress and it makes it even more ridiculous. I have games that I bought at least 3 years ago that are still being patched for bugs (EiA, WiTE, WiTP AE just to name a few). Patches that add features or allow the games to work with new video cards or OS'es are understandable. But you would think bugs could be found and fixed in a reasonable amount of time. I'm not saying I expect 100% bugfree software when I make a purchase. That's impossible. But I don't want to be a guinea pig or paying beta tester either.

The last thing I'd like to point out is that just because one pay's a higher price for something doesn't mean they hold it in higher value. Case in point WiTP and WiTE. $80 games. I almost feel obligated to play them just so I won't feel as though I wasted my money. EiA is a different story. $70 game. And in my opinion it's junk. I wasted my money. Almost 6 years after release and it's still buggy. PON, which started this whole uproar, released 3 years ago and I still can't get it to play at a reasonable speed even with a quad core system. I thought it was a bad game 3 years ago and got banned from Paradox forums for saying so. I really think I'm done with computer gaming. Prices are too high for something that won't last 20 or 30 years. I seriously doubt I'll be able to play any current computer game 20 or 30 years from now. It almost seems like a waste of good money. On the other hand, books and boardgames if kept in good condition can last a lifetime. I wish Slitherine/Matrix the best of luck but they've got their last dime from me. High prices and works in progress are enough for me to walk away.
warspite1

No, I say again, the point is not being missed.

Firstly though let me get out of the way the point about the value of a game to a player and the amount paid. I think that is an unwelcome distraction from the core source of disagreement. For the record I do not buy that argument - I don't care how much I pay, I am not going to like a game more or invest more time in a game just because I paid more for it. If its good and has my interest I will play it - if its rubbish - like EIA - then I will not play it regardless of the fact it was not cheap.

But anyway back to the pricing issue. Suppose a second hand car dealer buys a second hand Mercedes from a customer as part of a trade-in. The car dealer will weigh up what he thinks he can sell that car for in the future and thus what profit there is in it for him in deciding the price.

Having bought that car he now puts it on the forecourt at the price he believes it will sell at. THAT IS HIS CHOICE, and having ownership of the vehicle, HIS RIGHT. He might choose to put a premium on the car (compared to what others are selling similar vintage/marque cars at) because of his company's after sales service is better or because he has a quality reputation or just because he thinks he can. But that's FOR HIM to decide - its his business, his money that paid for it in the first place, his risk.

Now I might want that Mercedes (I probably do) but I might decide its too much. If so then sure, I can go up to the dealer and complain till I'm blue in the face that he should sell it cheaper because its 3-years old and I think Mercedes have a few issues I'm not happy with. What do you think his response would be?

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to tevans6220)
Post #: 23
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 2:20:08 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2545
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

Guys, I think a lot of you are missing the point. We aren't talking about a brand spanking new game here. PON is three years old. At release I paid $19.99 for it. Whether Ageod/Paradox or whoever was sustainable at that price is really not my concern. They asked the price and I paid it. Three years ago. And let's be honest. At release PON had a lot of problems and still does. For Slitherine/Matrix to now ask $24.99 for a three year old game which still has problems is a little questionable to me. Let's also not forget the fact that PON has been sold for very low prices right up until just recently. Keep in mind that anybody who really wanted to buy the game probably did already. How many more sales of PON do they think they're going to get? Especially when people find out that it was sold cheaper elsewhere and that Slitherine/Matrix raised the price.

Slitherine/Matrix has a huge problem with pricing. Not only with their older games but with a lot of their games. With today's economy asking $60, $70, $80 or more for a computer game is a little ridiculous. Especially games that are 5+ years old. Add to that the fact that most of the Slitherine/Matrix catalog are works in progress and it makes it even more ridiculous. I have games that I bought at least 3 years ago that are still being patched for bugs (EiA, WiTE, WiTP AE just to name a few). Patches that add features or allow the games to work with new video cards or OS'es are understandable. But you would think bugs could be found and fixed in a reasonable amount of time. I'm not saying I expect 100% bugfree software when I make a purchase. That's impossible. But I don't want to be a guinea pig or paying beta tester either.

The last thing I'd like to point out is that just because one pay's a higher price for something doesn't mean they hold it in higher value. Case in point WiTP and WiTE. $80 games. I almost feel obligated to play them just so I won't feel as though I wasted my money. EiA is a different story. $70 game. And in my opinion it's junk. I wasted my money. Almost 6 years after release and it's still buggy. PON, which started this whole uproar, released 3 years ago and I still can't get it to play at a reasonable speed even with a quad core system. I thought it was a bad game 3 years ago and got banned from Paradox forums for saying so. I really think I'm done with computer gaming. Prices are too high for something that won't last 20 or 30 years. I seriously doubt I'll be able to play any current computer game 20 or 30 years from now. It almost seems like a waste of good money. On the other hand, books and boardgames if kept in good condition can last a lifetime. I wish Slitherine/Matrix the best of luck but they've got their last dime from me. High prices and works in progress are enough for me to walk away.
warspite1

No, I say again, the point is not being missed.

Firstly though let me get out of the way the point about the value of a game to a player and the amount paid. I think that is an unwelcome distraction from the core source of disagreement. For the record I do not buy that argument - I don't care how much I pay, I am not going to like a game more or invest more time in a game just because I paid more for it. If its good and has my interest I will play it - if its rubbish - like EIA - then I will not play it regardless of the fact it was not cheap.

But anyway back to the pricing issue. Suppose a second hand car dealer buys a second hand Mercedes from a customer as part of a trade-in. The car dealer will weigh up what he thinks he can sell that car for in the future and thus what profit there is in it for him in deciding the price.

Having bought that car he now puts it on the forecourt at the price he believes it will sell at. THAT IS HIS CHOICE, and having ownership of the vehicle, HIS RIGHT. He might choose to put a premium on the car (compared to what others are selling similar vintage/marque cars at) because of his company's after sales service is better or because he has a quality reputation or just because he thinks he can. But that's FOR HIM to decide - its his business, his money that paid for it in the first place, his risk.

Now I might want that Mercedes (I probably do) but I might decide its too much. If so then sure, I can go up to the dealer and complain till I'm blue in the face that he should sell it cheaper because its 3-years old and I think Mercedes have a few issues I'm not happy with. What do you think his response would be?

Selling a game that is known to be buggy without a clear warning is a pretty questionable business practice, though.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 24
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 3:01:25 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2464
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: barkorn45


quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Sorry no not really.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I really do not understand why peeps are getting so upset. If I have this right:

- Matrix / Slitherine buy the rights to a game
- They choose to sell said game at x
- X happens to be higher than the price you can get said game elsewhere currently

So?

Matrix / Slitherine have paid for the game, they can do what they want re the pricing - its their product to do with as they wish. If they have the market right, people will continue to buy. If they have it wrong, then sales will not materialise and they will have thrown money down the drain.

What is the issue??

If you were lucky to buy at the cheaper price - well done
If you didn't, but want the game, then decide if you are willing to pay the price asked. If yes then go purchase, if no then do not.

Why do people think they have a right to dictate the price a company can sell a product at?

Am I missing something here??


Warspite1,

No, you are not missing anything. You have it spot on already.

Best wishes,
Steve



Straddled and hit the target on the first salvo.




Rogo727,

You believe that people should have the right to dictate to a company what they should sell a product for?

Best wishes,
Steve

We do,it's called the free market.
If the price is considered unreasonable it won't be purchased.
That will eventually dictate the price.


Barkorn45,

And how is that in anyway different from Warspite1's post?

Best wishes,
Steve

_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to barkman44)
Post #: 25
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 3:21:04 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2464
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

No. You like many others on here are missing the point. The case in point is they bought this game rights at X dollars. They calculated probably several price points in "which to get there money back from this game". THEY DID NOT RESEARCH THE MARKET. They didn't know this game was being sold for a much lower price not for a day or months but years! If they stated this at the start I wouldn't have said anything at all. So yes when a company acts in this matter I always speak out. I'm not the only one who feels this way. Folks when the top "three" are regulated to handling customer relations you are going to have problems.
quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogo727

Sorry no not really.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I really do not understand why peeps are getting so upset. If I have this right:

- Matrix / Slitherine buy the rights to a game
- They choose to sell said game at x
- X happens to be higher than the price you can get said game elsewhere currently

So?

Matrix / Slitherine have paid for the game, they can do what they want re the pricing - its their product to do with as they wish. If they have the market right, people will continue to buy. If they have it wrong, then sales will not materialise and they will have thrown money down the drain.

What is the issue??

If you were lucky to buy at the cheaper price - well done
If you didn't, but want the game, then decide if you are willing to pay the price asked. If yes then go purchase, if no then do not.

Why do people think they have a right to dictate the price a company can sell a product at?

Am I missing something here??


Warspite1,

No, you are not missing anything. You have it spot on already.

Best wishes,
Steve



Straddled and hit the target on the first salvo.




Rogo727,

You believe that people should have the right to dictate to a company what they should sell a product for?

Best wishes,
Steve




Rogo727,

I am still struggling.

My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that AGEOD left Paradox because they were not making any money from the relationship due to the ultra low prices it was selling for.

You appear to be saying that Slitherine/Matrix must continue to sell PON at huge discount prices because AGEOD have no right to make money from the game and they are not doing that because they did not do their market research properly.

Do I have this right?

Best wishes,
Steve

_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to rodney727)
Post #: 26
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 3:38:54 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2464
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

Guys, I think a lot of you are missing the point. We aren't talking about a brand spanking new game here. PON is three years old. At release I paid $19.99 for it. Whether Ageod/Paradox or whoever was sustainable at that price is really not my concern. They asked the price and I paid it. Three years ago. And let's be honest. At release PON had a lot of problems and still does. For Slitherine/Matrix to now ask $24.99 for a three year old game which still has problems is a little questionable to me. Let's also not forget the fact that PON has been sold for very low prices right up until just recently. Keep in mind that anybody who really wanted to buy the game probably did already. How many more sales of PON do they think they're going to get? Especially when people find out that it was sold cheaper elsewhere and that Slitherine/Matrix raised the price.

Slitherine/Matrix has a huge problem with pricing. Not only with their older games but with a lot of their games. With today's economy asking $60, $70, $80 or more for a computer game is a little ridiculous. Especially games that are 5+ years old. Add to that the fact that most of the Slitherine/Matrix catalog are works in progress and it makes it even more ridiculous. I have games that I bought at least 3 years ago that are still being patched for bugs (EiA, WiTE, WiTP AE just to name a few). Patches that add features or allow the games to work with new video cards or OS'es are understandable. But you would think bugs could be found and fixed in a reasonable amount of time. I'm not saying I expect 100% bugfree software when I make a purchase. That's impossible. But I don't want to be a guinea pig or paying beta tester either.

The last thing I'd like to point out is that just because one pay's a higher price for something doesn't mean they hold it in higher value. Case in point WiTP and WiTE. $80 games. I almost feel obligated to play them just so I won't feel as though I wasted my money. EiA is a different story. $70 game. And in my opinion it's junk. I wasted my money. Almost 6 years after release and it's still buggy. PON, which started this whole uproar, released 3 years ago and I still can't get it to play at a reasonable speed even with a quad core system. I thought it was a bad game 3 years ago and got banned from Paradox forums for saying so. I really think I'm done with computer gaming. Prices are too high for something that won't last 20 or 30 years. I seriously doubt I'll be able to play any current computer game 20 or 30 years from now. It almost seems like a waste of good money. On the other hand, books and boardgames if kept in good condition can last a lifetime. I wish Slitherine/Matrix the best of luck but they've got their last dime from me. High prices and works in progress are enough for me to walk away.


Tevans6220,

I do not buy the "old game" argument and I never have. For me at least, a game is either good, middling, or bad, and age of game is totally irrelevant.

TOAW III was released in 2006. It's current price is £27.99. It is still under development and the last patch was a couple of years ago. Is it worth that money? Hell, yes. It is worth much more than that.

If Slitherine/Matrix would like to promote the development of TOAW IV then yes, there is a good case for dropping the price on TOAW III and regarding it as an old game. But until then it still remains as a very good investment.

Best wishes,
Steve

< Message edited by shunwick -- 4/20/2013 3:47:18 PM >


_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to tevans6220)
Post #: 27
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 3:46:18 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2464
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

Guys, I think a lot of you are missing the point. We aren't talking about a brand spanking new game here. PON is three years old. At release I paid $19.99 for it. Whether Ageod/Paradox or whoever was sustainable at that price is really not my concern. They asked the price and I paid it. Three years ago. And let's be honest. At release PON had a lot of problems and still does. For Slitherine/Matrix to now ask $24.99 for a three year old game which still has problems is a little questionable to me. Let's also not forget the fact that PON has been sold for very low prices right up until just recently. Keep in mind that anybody who really wanted to buy the game probably did already. How many more sales of PON do they think they're going to get? Especially when people find out that it was sold cheaper elsewhere and that Slitherine/Matrix raised the price.

Slitherine/Matrix has a huge problem with pricing. Not only with their older games but with a lot of their games. With today's economy asking $60, $70, $80 or more for a computer game is a little ridiculous. Especially games that are 5+ years old. Add to that the fact that most of the Slitherine/Matrix catalog are works in progress and it makes it even more ridiculous. I have games that I bought at least 3 years ago that are still being patched for bugs (EiA, WiTE, WiTP AE just to name a few). Patches that add features or allow the games to work with new video cards or OS'es are understandable. But you would think bugs could be found and fixed in a reasonable amount of time. I'm not saying I expect 100% bugfree software when I make a purchase. That's impossible. But I don't want to be a guinea pig or paying beta tester either.

The last thing I'd like to point out is that just because one pay's a higher price for something doesn't mean they hold it in higher value. Case in point WiTP and WiTE. $80 games. I almost feel obligated to play them just so I won't feel as though I wasted my money. EiA is a different story. $70 game. And in my opinion it's junk. I wasted my money. Almost 6 years after release and it's still buggy. PON, which started this whole uproar, released 3 years ago and I still can't get it to play at a reasonable speed even with a quad core system. I thought it was a bad game 3 years ago and got banned from Paradox forums for saying so. I really think I'm done with computer gaming. Prices are too high for something that won't last 20 or 30 years. I seriously doubt I'll be able to play any current computer game 20 or 30 years from now. It almost seems like a waste of good money. On the other hand, books and boardgames if kept in good condition can last a lifetime. I wish Slitherine/Matrix the best of luck but they've got their last dime from me. High prices and works in progress are enough for me to walk away.
warspite1

No, I say again, the point is not being missed.

Firstly though let me get out of the way the point about the value of a game to a player and the amount paid. I think that is an unwelcome distraction from the core source of disagreement. For the record I do not buy that argument - I don't care how much I pay, I am not going to like a game more or invest more time in a game just because I paid more for it. If its good and has my interest I will play it - if its rubbish - like EIA - then I will not play it regardless of the fact it was not cheap.

But anyway back to the pricing issue. Suppose a second hand car dealer buys a second hand Mercedes from a customer as part of a trade-in. The car dealer will weigh up what he thinks he can sell that car for in the future and thus what profit there is in it for him in deciding the price.

Having bought that car he now puts it on the forecourt at the price he believes it will sell at. THAT IS HIS CHOICE, and having ownership of the vehicle, HIS RIGHT. He might choose to put a premium on the car (compared to what others are selling similar vintage/marque cars at) because of his company's after sales service is better or because he has a quality reputation or just because he thinks he can. But that's FOR HIM to decide - its his business, his money that paid for it in the first place, his risk.

Now I might want that Mercedes (I probably do) but I might decide its too much. If so then sure, I can go up to the dealer and complain till I'm blue in the face that he should sell it cheaper because its 3-years old and I think Mercedes have a few issues I'm not happy with. What do you think his response would be?

Selling a game that is known to be buggy without a clear warning is a pretty questionable business practice, though.


Perturabo,

If that is true then all software developers (not just game developers) stand guilty as charged. I agree though that all software developers should carry the warning - This Software May Not Be Perfect.

Besides, it is my understanding (and again, I could be wrong) that AGEOD intends to resume development of PON and it was the ultra low prices and the low income from the game that caused development to stop in the first place.

_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 28
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 3:54:32 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2464
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline
To All,

Finally, if this is about PON can I just say that there is a perfectly appalling thread about its price in the PON forum. It really doesn't need to spill over into every other forum.

Best wishes,
Steve

< Message edited by shunwick -- 4/20/2013 3:55:08 PM >


_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 29
RE: Rock paper Shotgun on Slitherine and pricing. - 4/20/2013 4:05:19 PM   
michael1776


Posts: 132
Joined: 2/3/2008
Status: offline
I have been watching the uproar generated by this game with growing interest. Quite frankly, I cannot understand why there is a need to bash Matrix for setting the price point at $24.99. Firstly, that's hardly exorbitant. Put this into perspective for a moment; the game is remarkably large. To play from start to finish in all of the scenarios is literally hundreds of hours of play time. Where else will you be entertained for hundreds of hours for less than $25? Secondly, I can think of no other company outside of Matrix/Slitherine that is as active in their community as these guys are. They are quick to resolve customer service issues, quick to produce patches for obvious game errors and production issues, sensitive to most customer feed back and highly approachable. This type of service is not rendered pro bono - nor should it be. Matrix is hardly a charity, they are a for profit organization and providing a high level of service has a cost, and a value I might add, for most of us. To those of you that cannot understand this I would recommend that you become a patron of EA...I hear that all of their games are priced reasonably, work out of the box and they jump through hoops of fire to keep their customer base content.

Again this is all a matter of perspective. It's a game. It isn't the cure for some disease. If you object to the price you as the consumer have the option to not purchase any product you either dislike, or find too expensive. This isn't rocket science people. To continue to beat the drum and whine about how over priced Matrix is, is simply a self entitled tantrum. Be reasonable, and sensible. Think about what you are aguing and move on. Let those people that have not played this title purchase it and enjoy it at a reasonable price.

And no, I am not a blind Matrix supporter. All of the PC games I purchase come from Matrix/Slitherine for a reason.

MJ

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 30
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