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Midway - 1/2/2013 1:10:24 PM   
fulcrum28


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I wonder why a famous and decisive battle, like Midway, was not included in the default scenarios set.
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RE: Midway - 1/2/2013 2:14:24 PM   
ilovestrategy


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From what I've read here in the forums, Midway is more of a tactical scenario while WiTP mechanics work on a strategic level. The regular players can handle this a lot better than I can.

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RE: Midway - 1/2/2013 5:04:13 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fulcrum28

I wonder why a famous and decisive battle, like Midway, was not included in the default scenarios set.


I think because it relied on one side's surprise and that's hard to do when you're playing AE. A random set-up would help, but scenarios in the game engine aren't really built to do that. With 20/20 hindsight the Japanese player woudl never attack Midway and would go hunting right away, with a huge CAP in place. It wouldn't be "Midway."

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RE: Midway - 1/3/2013 1:34:08 AM   
spence

 

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The strategic surprise experienced by the Japanese at Midway would be impossible to simulate in WitP or its derivative WitP:AE unless the whole first move of the game was programed to proceed as historical.

In addition, as documented in "Shattered Sword" all the foibles of the IJN method of carrier operations came together to make the result almost fore-ordained. 175 or so American strike (bomb or torpedo carrying a/c) made attacks on the KB before even one IJN a/c had even launched on a counterstrike. Unless one were to balance the scenario by making EVERY American strike a/c pilot completely incompetent at his trade (a bit of a stretch even if many of them were inexperienced) the IJN would have next to no chance.

In addition the game portrays the IJN CAP with a good deal more capability than was ever displayed historically. When faced with only one dimensional/one directional attacks the IJN CAP functioned reasonably well but when attacks came in from different directions or at more than one level (simultaneous dive and torpedo bomber attacks) the system broke down. It is not surprising really since no central direction of the CAP EVER existed in the IJN and even if it had many of the pilots of the CAP had removed the radios from their a/c to increase the A6Ms manuverability.

The Americans Fighter Direction Centers didn't work the way they were supposed to in 1942. They may not even have been perfect in 1944 (but think "Marianas Turkey Shoot"). The IJN's Fighter Direction Centers never existed at all at any point in the war. The game's system fails to recognize that the individual pilots' skill would matter not at all if they were in the wrong place at the wrong time as was evidenced at Midway.


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RE: Midway - 1/3/2013 1:41:36 AM   
Captain Cruft


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Or, to put it more simply, the game can't model it correctly.

WitP has never been remotely realistic. That doesn't mean it isn't fun though

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RE: Midway - 1/3/2013 2:58:50 AM   
DivePac88


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No it's not that the game can't model the Battle of Midway, that is up to the players. What the game does is models the operational situation, not the tactical environment. So technically the game can't model any historical battles of the Japanese war, and it shouldn't, that is what the players are for.

But in the countless engagements one can read in the AAR section, there are similar situations and results to Midway. Just read Q-ball's Hairy Yankee Reports AAR, and some of rroberson carrier battles, to see some one sided affairs. Also a Japanese player in WitP-AE could put himself a similar situation, by moving a 4 carrier TF under Allied LBA with 3 Carriers on airfield attack, 1 carrier on naval strike, and 5% CAP!

< Message edited by DivePac88 -- 1/3/2013 3:05:49 AM >


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RE: Midway - 1/3/2013 4:35:17 AM   
gradenko2k

 

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Midway was played out over the course of a single day, which doesn't really fit into WITP's scale.

A WITP-level examination of the scenario would probably be something like a campaign from April to July 1942, where you get to examine the decisions that lead up to the battle, beginning with the "problem" of Port Moresby and the IJN's decision to commit just two fleet carriers to the Coral Sea invasion force.

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RE: Midway - 1/3/2013 7:02:08 AM   
Puhis


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Game engine cannot even replicate tactical choices Japanese made (first strike Midway, then strike ships).

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RE: Midway - 1/3/2013 1:00:43 PM   
dr.hal


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Also I think if the battle went past one or two days (prior to contact), the Japanese player would NEVER divide his forces the way that Yamamoto did. It was such an amazingly spread out and cumbersome deployment as to almost ensure a defeat. An adage of the military is concentrate your forces. If this had been done, I don't think the Americans would have come out so well. Coral Sea was far more balanced and had some maneuver room. It makes a great "learning" scenario. IMHO Midway does not. Hal

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RE: Midway - 1/3/2013 11:41:23 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Also I think if the battle went past one or two days (prior to contact), the Japanese player would NEVER divide his forces the way that Yamamoto did. It was such an amazingly spread out and cumbersome deployment as to almost ensure a defeat ...


Yamamoto was using classical "Art of War" manuevering deception to bait the USN CVs, but all he managed to do was to isolate the Kido Butai from any support if things went wrong, but that outcome was dismissed even during wargames.

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RE: Midway - 1/4/2013 1:07:25 AM   
mikkey


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IIRC, in old WitP was user made Midway scenario (approximately 2 weeks long)

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RE: Midway - 1/4/2013 1:48:55 AM   
dr.hal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Also I think if the battle went past one or two days (prior to contact), the Japanese player would NEVER divide his forces the way that Yamamoto did. It was such an amazingly spread out and cumbersome deployment as to almost ensure a defeat ...


Yamamoto was using classical "Art of War" manuevering deception to bait the USN CVs, but all he managed to do was to isolate the Kido Butai from any support if things went wrong, but that outcome was dismissed even during wargames.

True Joe, but what's even worse is that the fifth division was NOT there thus the KB was down by 1/3 before things even happened. Thus even more reason NOT to split his forces as he did.

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 1/4/2013 1:49:31 AM >


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RE: Midway - 1/4/2013 5:43:55 AM   
gradenko2k

 

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He shouldn't have split up his forces going all the way back to Coral Sea. Imagine the (potential) blow-out it would have been for the Yorktown and the Lexington to go up against the whole KB.

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RE: Midway - 1/4/2013 5:49:57 AM   
Sardaukar


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Shattered Sword point out really well the almost painful mistakes Yamamoto made. It was in culture if IJN to have elaborate and complex rigid plans. It was operation doomed from start and turned out as catastrophic failure. Even if IJN had won the carrier engagement, it was very doubtful they could ever storm Midway vs. defences. Most likely outcome would have been that of Ichiki detachment at Guadalcanal. Have to remember that IJN/IJA did not have any experience about opposed landing or doctrine for naval gun support of landing.

In this sense, it'd make no sense to make pure Midway scenario, since (as pointed previously) players have 20/20 hindsight about what happened.



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RE: Midway - 1/4/2013 6:21:46 AM   
Puhis


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Coral sea and Aleutians operations were NOT Yamamoto's plans...

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RE: Midway - 1/4/2013 6:34:26 AM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Coral sea and Aleutians operations were NOT Yamamoto's plans...


True, but Coral Sea was before the Midway. Operation AL (Aleutians) was introduced by Naval GHQ and was not in Yamamoto's original plans.

It'd not have made much difference though, had it gone though or not. Unit's of "2nd Kido Butai" assigned were totally unsuitable to assist faster carriers.

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RE: Midway - 1/4/2013 8:16:51 AM   
Puhis


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Obviously your "totally" means something different than mine. There were absolytely no reasons why Ryujo and Junyo (escorted by Takao and Maya) couldn't be part of Midway operation. Maybe not with the "fast carriers" (Ryujo was actually faster than Kaga), but they could have formed second carrier force (with Zuiho).

There is several examples where slower IJN carriers operated together with fast carriers, for example Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands.

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RE: Midway - 1/4/2013 12:09:42 PM   
spence

 

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"Totally" might include the historical use at both Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz of the Ryujo and the Junyo in separate forces from Cardiv 5. Junyo's strike group at Santa Cruz also attacked separately from the KB's.

Given the rather ad hoc air groups that both these ships carried into the Aleutians Operation it is curious why the IJN couldn't bring itself to sail the Zuikaku with a composite Shokaku/Zuikaku air group for THE DECISIVE BATTLE.


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RE: Midway - 1/4/2013 4:05:11 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

"Totally" might include the historical use at both Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz of the Ryujo and the Junyo in separate forces from Cardiv 5. Junyo's strike group at Santa Cruz also attacked separately from the KB's.

Given the rather ad hoc air groups that both these ships carried into the Aleutians Operation it is curious why the IJN couldn't bring itself to sail the Zuikaku with a composite Shokaku/Zuikaku air group for THE DECISIVE BATTLE.




Like Shattered Sword says, that would have been against IJN carrier doctrine, in which carrier air group is integral part of ship, unlike in USN. And navies fight according the doctrine. So, the idea probably didn't even come to mind of IJN staff.


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RE: Midway - 1/5/2013 6:03:06 AM   
fulcrum28


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very interessting view points. I agree that Midway seems not sitable for WitP. Of course, in the full campaign, Midway can be a target of IJN :)

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RE: Midway - 1/6/2013 12:49:55 AM   
borner


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Those extra carriers COULD have changed a lot. At least they open up a lot of "what if's". For example, if Ryujo and Junyo were added to Kondo's invasion force, do they take over the main duty of air cover for Midway itsef? If so, Nagumo launches one strike, and does not worry about a second and is free to deal with the US forces when they are spotted. Or, do the extra carriers move up to engage the US carriers once they were spotted, although they would have a long way to go. With 3 carriers coming in from the southwest, what if they get spotted and how does Fletcher react? Any way you look at it, it opens a lot of possible outcomes, none of which are good for the US.


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RE: Midway - 1/7/2013 12:29:31 AM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fulcrum28

very interessting view points. I agree that Midway seems not sitable for WitP. Of course, in the full campaign, Midway can be a target of IJN :)


The last time I played as the Allies on the "hard" setting with the latest patch, the IJN did harass Midway with several CVs until I got clever and heavilly mined the waters.

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