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ship design automation - 12/7/2012 3:34:34 PM   
springel


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I started a game where I wanted to design my own military ships.

So I designed a frigate and a destroyer and I upgraded the design a few times when new discoveries were made, but then after a while I saw that the AI had obsoleted my designs and made its own.

I had left ship design automation in general, but removed the checkbox on the military designs in the policy screen and my designs were put on manual design and upgrade.

So how do I prevent the AI from obsoleting my designs?

A related question: when new designs for hyperdrives and blasters etc. are discovered, I don't have to retrofit to apply those improvements?

< Message edited by springel -- 12/7/2012 7:17:25 PM >
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RE: ship design automation - 12/9/2012 5:49:44 AM   
Cruis.In

 

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if you click on manually upgrade, and dont follow through, it obsoletes it I discovered. discovered it while building my dreadnought and constantly checking stats,

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RE: ship design automation - 12/9/2012 9:49:38 AM   
Bingeling

 

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OK, I took a peek in the game and searched some hidden corner of my memory structures...

To have the AI stop messing with a design class, you have to uncheck it in the research and design section of the empire policy screen.

As far as I know, setting "manual" upgrade in the design screen just makes the AI leave that one alone. It won't obsolete it. When I made a searcher explorer ship with long range scanner, I designed it and set manual/manual in the design list. The AI kept updating the normal explorer design, while my searcher ships stayed around, and I could build more when I wanted to. Keep in mind that the default to build is always the latest, and in this example the AI explorer would be built by the quick accesses to build explorers (Build orders, and shortcuts below the selection panel). But you can choose which version to build with right clicking the space port.


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RE: ship design automation - 12/9/2012 9:56:32 AM   
Bingeling

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: springel

I started a game where I wanted to design my own military ships.

So I designed a frigate and a destroyer and I upgraded the design a few times when new discoveries were made, but then after a while I saw that the AI had obsoleted my designs and made its own.

I had left ship design automation in general, but removed the checkbox on the military designs in the policy screen and my designs were put on manual design and upgrade.

So how do I prevent the AI from obsoleting my designs?

A related question: when new designs for hyperdrives and blasters etc. are discovered, I don't have to retrofit to apply those improvements?

With destroyer subrole unchecked in empire policy screen, and your destroyer design having "manual" upgrade in the design list, it should never be modified by the AI (unless you press auto upgrade button), and the AI should never create a competing destroyer design.

Some research breakthroughs are improvements to the existing designs. These work "automatically" on ships using the component, and does not lead to a modification of the design. If you research a new type of blaster you need to update your design (create a new one, obsolete the old), and retrofit ships to this new design.

Of course, with auto design on, the AI takes care of this.

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RE: ship design automation - 12/9/2012 3:10:17 PM   
springel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling


quote:

ORIGINAL: springel

I started a game where I wanted to design my own military ships.

So I designed a frigate and a destroyer and I upgraded the design a few times when new discoveries were made, but then after a while I saw that the AI had obsoleted my designs and made its own.

I had left ship design automation in general, but removed the checkbox on the military designs in the policy screen and my designs were put on manual design and upgrade.

So how do I prevent the AI from obsoleting my designs?

A related question: when new designs for hyperdrives and blasters etc. are discovered, I don't have to retrofit to apply those improvements?

With destroyer subrole unchecked in empire policy screen, and your destroyer design having "manual" upgrade in the design list, it should never be modified by the AI (unless you press auto upgrade button), and the AI should never create a competing destroyer design.

Some research breakthroughs are improvements to the existing designs. These work "automatically" on ships using the component, and does not lead to a modification of the design. If you research a new type of blaster you need to update your design (create a new one, obsolete the old), and retrofit ships to this new design.

Of course, with auto design on, the AI takes care of this.



Thanks for the answer.

I can only assume that I changed some setting without realizing it, and will see if it ever happens again.

So the first blaster improvement will be applied automatically, but the high energy one will require an upgrade?

I don't quite understand why the high energy one is an improvement: it delivers far less damage per energy input than the basic one. So you gain a bit on size, but you need more reactors for the same damage, offsetting the 'advantage'

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RE: ship design automation - 12/9/2012 8:44:19 PM   
Bingeling

 

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There is two possible upgrades to the maxos blaster, one which is needed for more powerful ones later. These does not require any design upgrade.

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RE: ship design automation - 12/9/2012 9:30:35 PM   
Cruis.In

 

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im not talking about the manual/automatic check button to the right of the list.

I mean if you click on the option manually upgrade design at the bottom, in the same bottom area as edit, and u come out without doing anything it obsoletes it.

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RE: ship design automation - 12/9/2012 9:58:24 PM   
Bingeling

 

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Yes, I am pretty sure it obsoletes on button press, but does not save the new until you ... save.

If you do this by accident, you can always find the old design and unobsolete it. Chang the top left option that says "show latest design" or something.

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RE: ship design automation - 12/10/2012 12:03:42 AM   
Cruis.In

 

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yeh leartn my lesson. i use edit if i just want to view without changing. even saving would make a new design even tho i didnt change anything.

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RE: ship design automation - 12/10/2012 8:28:06 AM   
Darkspire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cruis.In

yeh leartn my lesson. i use edit if i just want to view without changing. even saving would make a new design even tho i didnt change anything.


Must admit the design layout buttons are a little confusing but once you get used to them its pretty straight forward.

For example, I make an Escort design by using 'add new'. I then research the quantum reactor so I now want to bring my design up to date so I go into the design screen and click on the Escort design then click on 'upgrade selected' the reactor on the escort design will have been replaced with the new quantum design.

So the 'upgarde selected' will replace any current design components with updated ones but will not add any components to the design.

Back to our example of an Escort design. Due to size I could not add the torpedos I wanted when I first built it so I cant click the 'upgrade selected' as there are no torpedos in the design so it wont update, so click on the 'manually upgrade design' button and add the new torpedo components. In future I can just click on the 'auto upgrade' button and my torpedos will be upgraded.

So the 'manually upgrade design' button will allow you to add new components to a design so that in future you can just use the 'auto upgrade' button. Do not use this button to view designs (see below)

So back to our escort design. If I wanted use the design as a base for our new frigate design, I click on 'copy as new' the escort design comes up and I go to the top left and change the class from escort to frigate, make all the changes I want and click save, I now have my escort design and a new frigate design based on the escort design.
The 'copy as new' button is also very useful if you just want to view the design, just remember to click cancel and not save to exit, you can use edit to view the design as well, your choice (just get a warning if you already have ships built of the class using the 'edit' button) sometimes you cant quite remember if you added a component or just want to have a look to make sure the design is ok so if you use this method you avoid any problems with duplicating designs and getting the whole thing in a mess.

So use the 'copy as new' to copy a design to use as a base for a new class or a sub class (like escorts with lasers and a sub class of escorts with area weapons, love to spam the area weapon escorts into enemy lands ) or use the 'copy as new' button to view designs, remembering to click cancel, not save to exit. This avoids the annoying thing of making the class obselete like it would by looking with the 'manually upgrade design' button.

Now back to our Escort design and dealing with the 'edit' button. The auto upgrade does tend to get a little confused over whats hot and whats not so thats when to use the edit button. So for example if you research fission reactors and quantum reactors, phaser cannons and phaser lances, proton engines and accellorous engines ('scuse spelling im doing this off the top of my noggin) the auto upgrade button gets into a bit of mix up and doesnt put the right ones on the design, accellorous engines are faster but weigh more, the auto upgrade wont put the accellorous engines on even though there faster. Same goes with the cannon and lance, sometimes it wont put the lance on in favor of the cannon, reactors it will put a fission on in favor of a quantum one, I found this out when I was wondering why my new shiny ships were not firing, the reactors had been replaced with 'auto upgrade'and it was under powered . So use the edit button to change anything on a new design before exiting the design screen or if there are 0 ships with the new design use the edit button to view the design.

Darkspire

< Message edited by Darkspire -- 12/10/2012 8:31:12 AM >


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RE: ship design automation - 12/10/2012 8:40:22 AM   
Bingeling

 

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It is a bit of a chore to fix things if you use the auto upgrade option and it puts the wrong weapons (and other stuff). It is quite a bit of clicking to make things right, and multiple designs to "repair".



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RE: ship design automation - 12/10/2012 12:05:13 PM   
Cruis.In

 

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auto upgrade is only supposed to put the next best version of the weapon you have on

so concussion missine --> assault missile etc.

not replace with an entirely differently weapon line

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Post #: 12
RE: ship design automation - 5/16/2013 9:30:21 AM   
joeyeti


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
.....

Now back to our Escort design and dealing with the 'edit' button. The auto upgrade does tend to get a little confused over whats hot and whats not so thats when to use the edit button. So for example if you research fission reactors and quantum reactors, phaser cannons and phaser lances, proton engines and accellorous engines ('scuse spelling im doing this off the top of my noggin) the auto upgrade button gets into a bit of mix up and doesnt put the right ones on the design, accellorous engines are faster but weigh more, the auto upgrade wont put the accellorous engines on even though there faster. Same goes with the cannon and lance, sometimes it wont put the lance on in favor of the cannon, reactors it will put a fission on in favor of a quantum one, I found this out when I was wondering why my new shiny ships were not firing, the reactors had been replaced with 'auto upgrade'and it was under powered . So use the edit button to change anything on a new design before exiting the design screen or if there are 0 ships with the new design use the edit button to view the design.

Darkspire


One thing I seem to be slightly confused about - should Edit not better be renamed to View (with removing its editing possibilities) to avoid confusions between it and Manually Upgrade Design?

Because the way I see it the only difference is that with Edit you get a warning if there are ships/bases of that design already built (and then you cannot edit that design), whereas with Manually Upgrade Design is just that - raw manual edit without any warnings (true, it may also make the old design obsolete). By merging Edit with MUD and adding that warning to it new players might be better off...

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RE: ship design automation - 5/16/2013 3:57:19 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Part of the issue is that the design screen was significantly improved and expanded in a post-release update for Legends, so the manual doesn't cover it in detail. The update readme should document it though.

Edit will open a design for editing (as long as it's not already in use) without making any other changes. Manually Upgrade means that it will automatically rename it, automatically obsolete the existing design and open up a new renamed (i.e. Ship Mk2) design based on the original but leave the actual changes to the design as far as components and such up to you. It's a time saver if you like to do your own designs. Auto Upgrade does the same, but it's one click and done in that it asks the AI to make any changes to the components. If I'm micro-managing design, I usually use Manually Upgrade on the ship types I'm more interested in and leave the others on automatic upgrade. Alternately, if managing all designs I may use the auto-upgrade button when I don't feel a design is important enough to manually tweak, but I don't want the AI just upgrading it whenever it wants to.

Regards,

- Erik


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RE: ship design automation - 10/20/2013 7:38:02 AM   
Sithuk

 

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I custom designed a torpedo based defensive base. I placed the design on auto-upgrade and the design AI is adding level 1 rail guns and beams when it upgrades the design. I have set my design preferences to torpedos only in the options. Is there any way to have the AI designer only "upgrade" the existing component types, rather than add different ones?

I appreciate that point defence weapons should be the exception, if they are not already present.

I am playing fully patched Shadows.

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RE: ship design automation - 10/20/2013 11:09:52 AM   
CyclopsSlayer


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I just place the design on manual, and periodically use the auto update button.

Left to its own devices the AI is beyond stupid in many of its choices. It uses the physical layout of the tech tree to decide the tech to use regardless of the stats or functions of the components. The AI considers first the tier, and second between choices of the same tier the top one is chosen every time. Take hyper drives, if you had all 4 at tier 6 it would choose Kaldos over Equinox over Cal Dista over Torrent.

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RE: ship design automation - 10/20/2013 4:56:47 PM   
Sithuk

 

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RE: ship design automationdding lower tech level non torpedo components.why is it adding a lower tech weapon type, and removing the higher tech torps which I originally had. I would understand if the other weapon types were same tech level or higher.they are not. Is there anyway to constrain the weapon type?

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RE: ship design automation - 10/20/2013 5:04:23 PM   
Shark7


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Some tips for those that design their own ships:

1. If you want to deviate from the basic AI designs or add additional equipment to one of your own designs you need to manually upgrade the design.

2. If all you want to do is bring an AI or player defined design up to date with the latest tech, but not change the type and number of components, using auto-upgrade is best, as it simply brings all components up to the current highest level available and renames the design to mk <x>. Real time saver.

3. If you want to both add new components and update existing ones, the best way to do this is to use the auto-upgrade command (since you can upgrade multiple designs in one click), then go in and edit each design you want to add components to. It is best to do this with the game paused so the AI doesn't get a chance to retrofit any of the ships before you get them all edited, forcing a manual upgrade to add the components. Again, this is to save time.

I personally do it this way, as I prefer to design my own ships (though I have modded my game with custom AI templates to make the AI empires much stronger than default). I also don't upgrade every time a new component becomes available, but will wait until I have at least 6 things to change so I'm not constantly having ships in retrofit.

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RE: ship design automation - 10/20/2013 8:17:23 PM   
Darkspire


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quote:

2. If all you want to do is bring an AI or player defined design up to date with the latest tech, but not change the type and number of components, using auto-upgrade is best, as it simply brings all components up to the current highest level available and renames the design to mk <x>. Real time saver.


That last bit should read 'Real time waster'

You must have seen the extensive posts I have made on this subject, the 'auto upgrade selected design' button is connected to a routine that is not working, has not been working since as a far back as legends.

Brief but mentions one of the points I have elaborated on extensively in previous posts:


quote:

ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer

I just place the design on manual, and periodically use the auto update button.

Left to its own devices the AI is beyond stupid in many of its choices. It uses the physical layout of the tech tree to decide the tech to use regardless of the stats or functions of the components. The AI considers first the tier, and second between choices of the same tier the top one is chosen every time. Take hyper drives, if you had all 4 at tier 6 it would choose Kaldos over Equinox over Cal Dista over Torrent.


All I have ever got back is something along the lines that the for the component to be upgraded it must be two tech levels above your present component or some such. I would just like to upgrade things in a an ordered fashion, having a sub screen on the design screen that allowed a user to list out what order things should be exchanged would fix it, like the order of engines, warpdrives, shields etc. The AI does a terrible job at present, if the user could list the order of each section and save that as the default to follow when the game starts it would make manual design so much more productive, less of a time waster and so much more enjoyable than what it is at present. Like I have Maxos blasters fitted and have Phaser Lances researched and it upgrades the Maxos to Auto Cannons because I have not reached the top tier for Phaser Lances, so I click the button because I have more things that I know will be exchanged correctly than incorrect then sit there wasting about 5 mins going through all the ship and base designs editing the Auto Cannons to Phaser Lances. I have given up on it to be honest, it is a lost cause and will most likely never be fixed or improved I am sad to say.

Darkspire

< Message edited by Darkspire -- 10/20/2013 8:19:09 PM >


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RE: ship design automation - 10/20/2013 10:41:15 PM   
CyclopsSlayer


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I agree! The routine is obviously either broken or uses some form of Logic I fail completely to see. I noticed in one game the AI replacing the Kaiden "Shadowghost ECM" with a standard 'Countemeasures' that was actually of a lower tier.

I am dearly hoping that with the coming "Modder Friendly" update that they open up the internal AI routines. I cannot count the number of times I deal with some, to me, needless frustration;
Plenty of Resource XXX, why can't I just grab a freighter and move it myself since the AI won't?
Set the 'Auto Designer' to use these techs (A, B, N, P...) and avoid all others?
Same thing with Spies, watching the AI want to send them after a specific Tech that is redundant or obsoleted. /shudder

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