Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Population, construction and resources

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds Series >> Population, construction and resources Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Population, construction and resources - 5/30/2012 2:49:21 PM   
Beag

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 5/23/2012
Status: offline
Let´s keep this civil this time.

After playing 2 games to the end I´ve noticed some patterns that could be improved on the next patches, if possible. Notice that any considerations here are for a normal difficulty setting, thus implying the AI plays by the same rules as the player and doesn´t have extra bonuses anywhere) and for the standard starting conditions.

1- Resources become readily available after a point (except some luxuries like loros fruit). Considering the starting options (young galaxy, small map, 6-10 races), I´d say after 3 colonies are acquired, situation becomes pretty stable.
2- Money, too, readily available at same point.
3- With the sum of the two, expansion becomes rather easy, since conquered races are WAY too passive and as soon a base is built ships can be readily produced at the front.
4- Soon enough player is number 1 and it becomes mopping up time, because both economy and research way ahead means game won, even if you still have only a third of the map.

So, what I suggest:

1- Instead of having so many mid-value planets, make it so that resource amounts are more at the extremes (that is, planets with 90% and 10% steel, instead of many with 40-60%). That will make a strategic planet really strategic. However it will only work if the AI can deal with the fact and be as agressive towards resources as the player.
2- Population management could have some depth. As I once suggested, foreign races in a planet should have the potential to cause all kinds of trouble, from more frequent rebellions (specially if at war with their original empire) to easier sabotage of any facility in said planet. That would force the player between having more population and potential for unrest, or less population (either due to forced migration or extermination) and deal with the consequences. Also, the more intelligent and agressive the race, the larger the potential for unrest should be. I am aware that thereis a happiness malus when at war but the effect on gameplay is negligible. So, instead of just spamming bases everywhere, putting bases in precarious situations could lead them to be sabotaged and destroyed easily, unless the player makes an effort to make the population homogeneous, with all the productivity/reputation consequences that those imply.
3- To make other kinds of government more interesting, give a malus to intelligence and counter-espionage to democracies, republics and technocracies, and bonus for the others (is this already resent in the game? It should). As it is research beats all other modifiers. It really doesn´t matter if despotism gives less war weariness if due to inferior tech they lose 10 ships for each of the (technologically superior) enemy.
4- Agressive races should be more agressive than they are now, and maybe a balance of power system would be interesting - if someone is becoming too powerful, neighbour empires should renounce treaties and ally with each other. That should work regardless if the powerful empire is AI or player.
5- In the starting settings, there should be an option for "Assymetrical distribution of power". That is, on the start some empires would be larger than others. It would create interesting scenarios where you would have to try to create a league and defeat the larger power.

I´m not sure that having different kinds of shipyards that needed to be upgraded to build better ships would be good. To me it would only be an extra micromanagement burden instead of giving the player more choices and making the game harder, which is my point. Corruption could be slightly increased overall, and again foreign races should pay less and be more unhappy.

< Message edited by Beag -- 5/30/2012 2:52:43 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Population, construction and resources - 5/31/2012 4:06:02 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7861
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
Part of it is that the original idea of exhaustible resources didn't make the cut. If you could exhaust a resource and be forced to recycle older stuff it might be interesting. It would certainly make losing ships sting if there were the possibility you wouldn't have the resources to replace them.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Beag)
Post #: 2
RE: Population, construction and resources - 5/31/2012 5:50:51 PM   
Bebop Cola

 

Posts: 244
Joined: 5/9/2012
Status: offline
There might be some value in splitting the difference of abundant and limited resources. Perhaps that middle ground might be a gradual drop-off in mine productivity over time to some minimal value representing the notion that the deposits that are cheap and easy to access have been depleted. Production will bottom out at a relative trickle compared to the starting production rate, but still capable of producing some resources so as to prevent a complete grinding halt of industry.

This would, of course, be a permanent change to the resource node rather than a flag on the mining unit. This prevents a player from scrapping their own mine and building a new one or a rival empire capturing a node and getting full production again. The depletion rate should also commensurate with the mining rate. As mining technologies are improved to increase the production rate, the depletion rate should increase as well. The improved production rate from new technologies can squeeze a bit more out of a "depleted" resource node, so they're still useful research projects to complete.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 3
RE: Population, construction and resources - 5/31/2012 10:03:13 PM   
Beag

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 5/23/2012
Status: offline
Sure, resource depletion and more necessity for tech improvements would be nice. But above all I´d like to see more dispute for resources. As I said since there is few differences in values of planets, usually all that is needed is to spam mining stations, while what I propose is to have fewer valuable planets and make everyone fight more for those.

What about more meaningful population management? Are the ideas useful? Oh and one other thing I´ve noticed. The policy for races is a bit limited isn´t it? What if I want to exterminate only the bloody bugs? Becuase policies can only be applied to all races or races of your family.

< Message edited by Beag -- 6/1/2012 3:12:02 AM >

(in reply to Bebop Cola)
Post #: 4
RE: Population, construction and resources - 6/1/2012 6:52:44 PM   
Bebop Cola

 

Posts: 244
Joined: 5/9/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Beag
1- Instead of having so many mid-value planets, make it so that resource amounts are more at the extremes (that is, planets with 90% and 10% steel, instead of many with 40-60%). That will make a strategic planet really strategic. However it will only work if the AI can deal with the fact and be as agressive towards resources as the player.

My concern here is that it gives a fairly substantial advantage to any empire that stumbles upon this one huge stockpile. Everyone else is forced to spam mines on dinky little resource nodes, preventing them from building up much of a stockpile. The lucky empire that hits this large node can not only capitalize on it, but also spam those dinky nodes, building up a fairly massive stockpile relatively quickly. When push eventually comes to shove, they are going to have the advantage in any armed attempt to snatch the planet as a result of a large resource stockpile. While this may appear to accomplish the goal of creating high value strategic resource nodes, I'd be concerned that instead it just tips the balance too far in favor of the first empire to grab the node.

However, if we combine this idea with the one I suggested earlier we could have a system where node values are more or less as vanilla, save that some nodes decrease value at a slower rate than others. This means that resource gathering efforts are initially more or less equally productive in the short term, but the really valuable ones are productive in the long term. Those become the ones to fight over using the stockpiles built up from the nodes that deplete faster.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beag
2- Population management could have some depth. As I once suggested, foreign races in a planet should have the potential to cause all kinds of trouble, from more frequent rebellions (specially if at war with their original empire) to easier sabotage of any facility in said planet. That would force the player between having more population and potential for unrest, or less population (either due to forced migration or extermination) and deal with the consequences. Also, the more intelligent and agressive the race, the larger the potential for unrest should be. I am aware that thereis a happiness malus when at war but the effect on gameplay is negligible. So, instead of just spamming bases everywhere, putting bases in precarious situations could lead them to be sabotaged and destroyed easily, unless the player makes an effort to make the population homogeneous, with all the productivity/reputation consequences that those imply.

I would very much like to see more depth in population management as well. I'd like to set migration/enslavement/extermination policies per species, rather than just for my race family then everyone else. Ideally, I'd like to be able to set different tax levels for different species, perhaps even for different sub-factions of species(like those that come from a newly rebelled empire).

I'm in agreement that it would be nice to see more granularity in social pressures on multicultural colony worlds. Certain species already have a coded instinctual dislike of others, so those should be a bit more substantive in regards to the happiness of a planetary population. A world who's population is composed entirely of Gizureans that is controlled by a Human empire should pretty much experience at least mild continued unrest. A world with a mixed population should experience unrest and strife between the two groups. Assimilation only goes so far. A race that depends on a Hive Mind to function should have exceptional difficulty assimilating into a relatively individualistic Democracy. Maybe the dominant race even dislikes them for "pooling" their votes.

I think it would add some spice if the populations of newly rebelling or emerging empires occasionally had different traits than the vanilla race they split from. By that I mean different biases, preferred government types, tech focus, and design priorities. This could just be something random but it would be particularly interesting if they were set up in some way responding to their neighbors. Perhaps a human world bordering the Zenox takes on a technocratic focus and has an increased bias towards the Zenox. Alternatively, if relations between adjacent Human and Zenox empires are especially bad but still peaceful, perhaps any colonies that rebel along that border are especially biased against the opposing empire. In conjunction to the more granularity point above, I might like to encourage migration for a Gizurean sub-faction that is biased towards me while discouraging migration for the sub-faction biased against me. Of course, my own population is still likely biased against all Gizureans so such an effort may end up biting me in the ass.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beag
3- To make other kinds of government more interesting, give a malus to intelligence and counter-espionage to democracies, republics and technocracies, and bonus for the others (is this already resent in the game? It should). As it is research beats all other modifiers. It really doesn´t matter if despotism gives less war weariness if due to inferior tech they lose 10 ships for each of the (technologically superior) enemy.

I tend to agree with this. That said, with the Legends system of acquiring Intelligence agents I've been a little concerned about the whole espionage side of the game in the first place. If your agent gets nabbed, you basically have to wait for chance to spawn a new one. In the meantime you're left with a shortage of agents. It would be nice if the agents who actually do the work are recruitable, and the characters are there to provide them bonuses as heads of departments/agencies(espionage, counter-intelligence, sabotage, etc).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beag
4- Agressive races should be more agressive than they are now, and maybe a balance of power system would be interesting - if someone is becoming too powerful, neighbour empires should renounce treaties and ally with each other. That should work regardless if the powerful empire is AI or player.

While I'm a fan of aggressive races being aggressive, I think they need to do so intelligently. "Mega-Evil Empire" always feels too artificial and irritating to me. In reality, there would be no reason for a weaker empire to break their treaty with a stronger one insofar as they have a good thing going. If the relationship is good it is probably a bonus if their friend is the biggest kid on the block. If the relationship is a little rocky, that bonus might be the only thing holding them together. That said, if the relationship is bad that bonus becomes an almost insurmountable negative modifier. In the end, simply having overwhelming power should not make the Divine Saintly Empire of Good Deeds the enemy of the universe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beag
5- In the starting settings, there should be an option for "Assymetrical distribution of power". That is, on the start some empires would be larger than others. It would create interesting scenarios where you would have to try to create a league and defeat the larger power.

While I tend to prefer an equal starting point for my games, I would support this as an option at game creation.

(in reply to Beag)
Post #: 5
RE: Population, construction and resources - 6/2/2012 1:04:12 AM   
Beag

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 5/23/2012
Status: offline
Ah, Mega-Evil Empire... Memories of Space Empires

However, the weaker empires have a reason to unite for a very single reason, if they don´t beat the larger power, they will lose the game. It´s like Napoleon and the various alliances against him - if an empire/country is threatened it´s totally logical for it to seek alliances with other powers (and former allies to betray the big guy - like Russia did), specially if they antagonize ideologically/economically the larger empire. It would be a better system than to allow the player to chew each empire at a time... at least it should be an option for AI beahvior in game setup.


< Message edited by Beag -- 6/2/2012 1:05:49 AM >

(in reply to Bebop Cola)
Post #: 6
RE: Population, construction and resources - 6/2/2012 3:35:55 AM   
Bebop Cola

 

Posts: 244
Joined: 5/9/2012
Status: offline
That's just it, though. They need to be smart about it. If they have no formal relationship it may be reasonable for them to be biased in favor of their fellow small-fry empires, but there is no particular reason to provoke the big kid just because he's big. Moreover, if he's actually a decent fellow it makes sense to be friends. He's got a huge economy and can potentially be a good trading partner, he can help defend you if the other kids pick on you, and you might be able to glean technological advances beyond your ability just because him doling out some tech would not upset the balance of power too much.

The problem with a system promoting alliances against the big guy for no reason other than that he's big is that it promotes unrealistic behaviors. I'm unlikely to ally with the Dhayut, who enslaved my citizens last year, simply because the Securans, who are actually quite nice and helped me defend my other colonies from the Dhayut, are significantly more powerful than the both of us. Neither am I likely to ally with my fellow small-fry Keterov empire, who I just met and have no idea how they'll treat me. The Securans are all-right, and their massive economy buys my Bifuran Silk.

< Message edited by Bebop Cola -- 6/2/2012 3:36:32 AM >

(in reply to Beag)
Post #: 7
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Distant Worlds Series >> Population, construction and resources Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.141