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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A)

 
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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/28/2018 1:10:27 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Wakkanai is the reason why every possible invasion hex in Japan needs level 6 forts,



Level 7+ forts, maybe? Wakkanai had level 6 forts and about 1kAV before the invasion in a x2 hex, and his first DA got a 2:1!!!

quote:


but the non-base invasion of the hex SE of Wakkanai was a very elegant move.



Yes. That's my feeling. Also, though, surprisingly durable. This actually could change how the Allies are played in future. Non-base invasions are not just possible, they're effective!

quote:



There's a nice justification for keeping a large QRF in move mode in a central location!

I think that with Wakkanai falling, I'd keep the pressure on as best you can - it's the best bombardment target on the map right now for the IJN, or it will be once he rotates his fighter squadrons in.


Not that I have much left to use for bombardment. Four BBs and about eight CA.

I have a feeling Dan will see that too though and change up the situation again. He's not one to sit on his successes for long. I think another move will come soon.

< Message edited by obvert -- 8/28/2018 1:11:05 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 2341
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/28/2018 1:37:05 PM   
Lowpe


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Joined: 2/25/2013
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No doubt the non base landing worked wonders, are you allowed to do paratroop landings in non-base hexes?


And lets not forget the no stacking limit also changes the situation drastically.

I went back and looked, the IJA was there, but severely lacked artillery pieces and an AA unit. I suspect this base was the weakest defended of likely invasion spots. Allied sig int and recon strikes again.

The starting forces:



51st Ind.Mixed Brigade
Karafuto Mixed Brigade
72nd Division
11th Ind.Mixed Regiment
Soya Fortress
5th Fleet
206th Naval Construction Battalion
218th Naval Construction Battalion
23rd Air Flotilla
29th Field AF Construction Battalion
178th JAAF AF Bn


I didn't look, but I bet the 72nd Division is a weak air mobile division.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2342
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/28/2018 1:37:48 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24453
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

Level 7+ forts, maybe? Wakkanai had level 6 forts and about 1kAV before the invasion in a x2 hex, and his first DA got a 2:1!!!

The bombardment model just isn't good at this particular. It doesn't "know" about a large established perimeter into which unloading proceeds without much interference and it certainly doesn't allow for decision to not fire due to overwhelming counter battery opposition.

As Allies in the late game I did what I could to limit the effect by reducing the turns of unloading. Depending on the operation the Allies have more options then (in the late game). Sometimes you can't do much about it, but at least you can usually avoid extending it through lack of coordination.

I haven't been reading CR's AAR so I have no idea if he's been paying any mind to it at all.

_____________________________


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Post #: 2343
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/28/2018 1:38:59 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24453
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

No doubt the non base landing worked wonders, are you allowed to do paratroop landings in non-base hexes?
As I recall the game code does not allow that unless there is an enemy unit in the hex.


And lets not forget the no stacking limit also changes the situation drastically.

I went back and looked, the IJA was there, but severely lacked artillery pieces and an AA unit. I suspect this base was the weakest defended of likely invasion spots. Allied sig int and recon strikes again.

The starting forces:



51st Ind.Mixed Brigade
Karafuto Mixed Brigade
72nd Division
11th Ind.Mixed Regiment
Soya Fortress
5th Fleet
206th Naval Construction Battalion
218th Naval Construction Battalion
23rd Air Flotilla
29th Field AF Construction Battalion
178th JAAF AF Bn


I didn't look, but I bet the 72nd Division is a weak air mobile division.




_____________________________


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 2344
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/28/2018 1:45:20 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 17342
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

No doubt the non base landing worked wonders, are you allowed to do paratroop landings in non-base hexes?
As I recall the game code does not allow that unless there is an enemy unit in the hex.






If the Allies land one unit, as I seem to recall was what happened here, a counter paratroop landing by Japan might be enough to win a fight especially if it was heavily disrupted? Just a thought.

In the future Japan can place small ground units to hold the non base hex for for a day? My thought this might not work because of how SR works when the rails are cut.

It is a tough problem, no doubt.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 2345
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/28/2018 2:08:03 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24453
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

No doubt the non base landing worked wonders, are you allowed to do paratroop landings in non-base hexes?
As I recall the game code does not allow that unless there is an enemy unit in the hex.






If the Allies land one unit, as I seem to recall was what happened here, a counter paratroop landing by Japan might be enough to win a fight especially if it was heavily disrupted? Just a thought.

In the future Japan can place small ground units to hold the non base hex for for a day? My thought this might not work because of how SR works when the rails are cut.

It is a tough problem, no doubt.


Without consideration of withstanding a para-drop counter attack, for the landings at Cam Ranh Bay the defensive landings to the side were a regiment on one side and a brigade on the other (basically same size). The point of the size was to make it legitimate rather cutting the rails in game terms only. Those units of course took a lot of disablements and had to recover before further assignments.

I don't know how others would handle that, opinions and agreements will vary, but in that case at least it would have taken quite a para force to defeat either one of those units fully equipped with heavy weapons. As you say, tough problem.

_____________________________


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 2346
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/28/2018 2:23:41 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

No doubt the non base landing worked wonders, are you allowed to do paratroop landings in non-base hexes?
As I recall the game code does not allow that unless there is an enemy unit in the hex.






If the Allies land one unit, as I seem to recall was what happened here, a counter paratroop landing by Japan might be enough to win a fight especially if it was heavily disrupted? Just a thought.

In the future Japan can place small ground units to hold the non base hex for for a day? My thought this might not work because of how SR works when the rails are cut.

It is a tough problem, no doubt.



The current situation makes the single file path to Wakkanai vulnerable for defenders as well, and I'm aiming to guard that by placing units with some DP guns in every hex to better disable any troops landing in a non-base hex and reduce bombardment effectiveness.

I don't think you can drop paras off-base. Maybe though I've never tried in a hex where units were present? Not sure.


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 2347
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/28/2018 2:25:45 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24453
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

I don't think you can drop paras off-base. Maybe though I've never tried in a hex where units were present? Not sure.

It was the case in WITP you could drop on enemy units outside a base, but I just don't recall any discussion of it either being changed or not changed in AE. No idea.

_____________________________


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2348
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/28/2018 4:10:13 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
Jan 2, 1945


Wakkanai is captured. Interestingly, no kamis are yet available. It is out of range of Tokyo!!

The IJN moves in this turn to see if the KB can hit any of those unloading amphibs but no arrive today. Instead the strikes do fly and hit numerous TFs of Allied DDs. Some LBA flies as well. The hit rate is poor, but some are nailed and go under, which is nice. It won't change anything, but it adds some VPs to offset the massive 800 the Allies get from the base (and more from the troops destroyed).

Everything will sneak back into the shadows and the troops in the blocking hex will test the defences there to see how much is in fighting shape that landed in the non-base hex. Now the real fun starts. The Allies are on Japanese home soil, and there are at least a lot of troops available. A lot more becomes vulnerable though too.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jan 2, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on 112th Cavalry Regiment, at 122,49 , near Wakkanai

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 49 NM, estimated altitude 43,010 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 20

Allied aircraft
P-38L Lightning x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38L Lightning: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 41010 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 112th Cavalry Regiment, at 122,49 , near Wakkanai

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 35 NM, estimated altitude 44,530 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-83 x 15
Ki-100-I Tony x 32

Allied aircraft
P-38L Lightning x 4

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
P-38L Lightning: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
15 x Ki-83 sweeping at 41530 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Wakkanai at 122,48

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 36
A6M5c Zero x 26
A6M8 Zero x 88
D4Y3 Judy x 33
D4Y4 Judy x 29
J2M5 Jack x 12
N1K5-J George x 6
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 23
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 20
Ki-100-I Tony x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y3 Judy: 6 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 9 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
DD Ross
DD Little II
DD Stephen Potter
DD Halsey Powell
DD David Taylor
DD McKee, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Prichett
DD Aulick

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Wakkanai at 122,48

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 59
D4Y4 Judy x 23
J2M5 Jack x 12
N1K2-J George x 20
N1K5-J George x 6
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 23
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 21
Ki-83 x 12
Ki-84a Frank x 11
Ki-100-I Tony x 49

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y4 Judy: 3 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
DD Heywood Edwards, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
DD Claxton
DD Foote
DD Hailey, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Wakkanai at 122,48

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 45
B6N1 Jill x 35
B6N2 Jill x 33
J2M5 Jack x 22
N1K2-J George x 25
N1K5-J George x 6
Ki-84a Frank x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N1 Jill: 6 damaged
B6N1 Jill: 5 destroyed by flak
B6N2 Jill: 1 destroyed by flak


Allied Ships
DD Dyson
DD Paladin, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
DD William Porter
DD Vendetta
DD Bradford
DD Laws

Aircraft Attacking:
30 x B6N1 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Wakkanai at 122,48

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 35
A6M8 Zero x 45
D4Y4 Judy x 31
J2M5 Jack x 10
N1K2-J George x 45
N1K5-J George x 20
Ki-84a Frank x 11
Ki-100-I Tony x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y4 Judy: 2 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 2 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
DD Cassin Young, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
DD Wickes, Bomb hits 1, on fire


Aircraft Attacking:
12 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Wakkanai at 122,48

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 18
A6M8 Zero x 101
D4Y4 Judy x 45
N1K2-J George x 25
Ki-83 x 12
Ki-100-I Tony x 30

Allied aircraft
P-38L Lightning x 1

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y4 Judy: 6 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 3 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
DD David Taylor
DD Claxton, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Halsey Powell
DD Aulick

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Wakkanai at 122,48

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 18
A6M8 Zero x 23
D4Y3 Judy x 26
J2M5 Jack x 11
N1K2-J George x 25
N1K5-J George x 14
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 23
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 41

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y3 Judy: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Paladin, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
DD Vendetta

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Wakkanai at 122,48

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 4,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 90
B6N1 Jill x 19
J2M5 Jack x 20
N1K5-J George x 20
Ki-83 x 12
Ki-100-I Tony x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N1 Jill: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Wickes, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Aircraft Attacking:
19 x B6N1 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Wakkanai (122,48)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 85657 troops, 1331 guns, 2065 vehicles, Assault Value = 2161

Defending force 37357 troops, 404 guns, 23 vehicles, Assault Value = 444

Allied adjusted assault: 2089

Japanese adjusted defense: 443

Allied assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 2)

Allied forces CAPTURE Wakkanai !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
5348 casualties reported
Squads: 106 destroyed, 122 disabled
Non Combat: 17 destroyed, 62 disabled
Engineers: 163 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 178 (158 destroyed, 20 disabled)
Vehicles lost 14 (14 destroyed, 0 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
1016 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 139 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 42 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Guns lost 31 (3 destroyed, 28 disabled)


Assaulting units:
98th Infantry Division
5th USMC Tank Battalion
7th Infantry Division
1st Australian Division
819th Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
77th Infantry Division
670th Tank Destroyer Battalion
2/6th Armoured Regiment
3rd Marine Division
XIV Corps Combat Engineer Regiment
192nd Tank Battalion
131st Combat Engineer Regiment
2/4th Armoured Regiment
93rd Infantry Division
762nd Tank Battalion
110th Combat Engineer Battalion
3rd Regiment
11th Airborne Div /2
160th USA Base Force
265th Coastal Artillery Regiment
147th Field Artillery Regiment
3rd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
8th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
I US Corps
205th Field Artillery Battalion
I Corps Artillery
82nd Mortar Battalion
Provisional GMC Grp

Defending units:
72nd Division
51st Ind.Mixed Brigade
Soya Fortress
Karafuto Mixed Brigade
43rd Div /2
89th Div /2
206th Naval Construction Battalion
23rd Air Flotilla
29th Field AF Construction Battalion
11th Ind.Mixed Regiment
218th Naval Construction Battalion
5th Fleet
178th JAAF AF Bn

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 2349
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/28/2018 4:14:17 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 25437
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

I don't think you can drop paras off-base. Maybe though I've never tried in a hex where units were present? Not sure.

It was the case in WITP you could drop on enemy units outside a base, but I just don't recall any discussion of it either being changed or not changed in AE. No idea.


I've tried it in WiTP:AE. No can do.

_____________________________


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 2350
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/28/2018 4:20:16 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 25437
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Yes. That's my feeling. Also, though, surprisingly durable. This actually could change how the Allies are played in future. Non-base invasions are not just possible, they're effective!


All they'll need will be the surfeit of Allied shipping in 1945 right behind 'em to work it. Seriously, though, without large numbers of AKA/APA and myriad support vessels and supply ships in immediate attendance, I think this effort would have failed. This would be a very risky move (especially on a Japanese Home Island) without comprehensive naval and air superiority and before 1945. Allied players that make this a mainstay before then (the vast majority of Allied players aren't playing in 1945) are more than likely going to get burned.

_____________________________


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2351
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/28/2018 7:16:21 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 8731
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Yes. That's my feeling. Also, though, surprisingly durable. This actually could change how the Allies are played in future. Non-base invasions are not just possible, they're effective!


All they'll need will be the surfeit of Allied shipping in 1945 right behind 'em to work it. Seriously, though, without large numbers of AKA/APA and myriad support vessels and supply ships in immediate attendance, I think this effort would have failed. This would be a very risky move (especially on a Japanese Home Island) without comprehensive naval and air superiority and before 1945. Allied players that make this a mainstay before then (the vast majority of Allied players aren't playing in 1945) are more than likely going to get burned.


I agree.

I don't think non-base invasions will be a new pattern of play. They have limited uses. This just happened to be one of them.

There are few other places on the map where they'd be relevant.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 2352
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/28/2018 7:31:21 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24453
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

I don't think you can drop paras off-base. Maybe though I've never tried in a hex where units were present? Not sure.

It was the case in WITP you could drop on enemy units outside a base, but I just don't recall any discussion of it either being changed or not changed in AE. No idea.


I've tried it in WiTP:AE. No can do.

Thanks!

_____________________________


(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 2353
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/28/2018 8:58:37 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
Jan 3, 1945


After a bombardment on the 3rd the scope of Allied non-base landings becomes clear. This is a big force nearly at full strength, and it's been there less than two weeks. The is no HQ in hex either, although I'm sure the one at Wakkanai and others at Toyohara have some influence.

In the air the Allies sweep Kushiro and send in strikes against the resources. I have essentially training groups there for a moment while others upgrade and fill out. On the day over 50 resource points are lost with some fires still burning.

The KB leaves the area effectively, but Allied search spots it near Sendai. I sent it down there as a flank run could have trapped it easily near Maizuru.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jan 3, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 34 NM, estimated altitude 46,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 23
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 48
Ki-100-I Tony x 44

Allied aircraft
Thunderbolt II x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 3 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
Thunderbolt II: 2 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 27 NM, estimated altitude 41,900 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 18
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 34
Ki-100-I Tony x 30

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 6 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 1 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 47 NM, estimated altitude 38,900 feet.
Estimated time to target is 17 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 23
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 45
Ki-100-I Tony x 39

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 2 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 3 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
Corsair II: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Corsair II sweeping at 36900 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 50 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 17 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 12
B-29-1 Superfort x 6

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 7 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 3 damaged

Resources hits 25

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 122,49 (near Wakkanai)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 1347 troops, 64 guns, 59 vehicles, Assault Value = 1566

Defending force 35512 troops, 649 guns, 490 vehicles, Assault Value = 1045

Japanese ground losses:
Guns lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 11 (2 destroyed, 9 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
13 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Assaulting units:
27th Tank Regiment
20th Division
4th Tank Division
Kyuko Naval Guard Unit
4th Division
25th Tank Regiment
85th Naval Guard Unit
68th Brigade
89th Div /3
51st Air Defense AA Regiment
17th RF Gun Battalion
15th Base Force
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
14th RF Gun (Pack) Battalion
141st AA Regiment
68th Ind. AA Battalion
20th RF Gun Bn /1

Defending units:
112th Cavalry Regiment
503rd Parachute Regiment
640th Tank Destroyer Battalion
25th Infantry Division
2nd Marine Division

1st Australian Para Battalion
51st Marine Defense Battalion
17th Marine Defense Battalion
200th & 515th Coast AA Regiment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 2354
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 9:25:28 AM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
Jan 4, 1945


Ok. I've waited a long tie for the K-83. It's been a stalwart sweeper in the past for me, and has been used well against me in the Loka match around the same time period. So I swept Toyohara today ...

.. And got crushed. These groups have all pilots of 78+ EXP and are not at extended range, have an altitude dive advantage, and outgun most of what they're aiming at. What gives?

I've gotta work this out quickly. I need to reduce the Allies where and when they don't want to be reduced. I need to keep pressure on their pools and make their offensive missions more difficult and sporadic.

This is about it for the day. Now a week to fill these groups out again.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jan 4, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 17 NM, estimated altitude 45,530 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-83 x 22

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 9
Kittyhawk IV x 6
P-38L Lightning x 30
P-51D Mustang x 13
F4U-1A Corsair x 25
F4U-1D Corsair x 39

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-83: 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38L Lightning: 1 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 2 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed


Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-83 sweeping at 41530 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Ketoi-jima , at 134,50

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 71 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 19 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy: 4 damaged
Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied Ships
LST-643, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Port hits 3
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
19 x Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 44,530 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-83 x 19

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 9
Kittyhawk IV x 6
P-38L Lightning x 28
P-51D Mustang x 12
F4U-1A Corsair x 15
F4U-1D Corsair x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-83: 6 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk IV: 1 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 41 NM, estimated altitude 46,530 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-83 x 31

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 8
Kittyhawk IV x 4
P-38L Lightning x 23
P-51D Mustang x 11
F4U-1A Corsair x 17
F4U-1D Corsair x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-83: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire VIII: 1 destroyed
Kittyhawk IV: 1 destroyed
P-38L Lightning: 2 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 2 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed


Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-83 sweeping at 41530 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Wakkanai (122,48)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 6049 troops, 231 guns, 393 vehicles, Assault Value = 2089

Defending force 32096 troops, 261 guns, 4 vehicles, Assault Value = 246

Allied adjusted assault: 197

Japanese adjusted defense: 261

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
455 casualties reported
Squads: 49 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 7 (2 destroyed, 5 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
Vehicles lost 20 (1 destroyed, 19 disabled)

Assaulting units:
5th USMC Tank Battalion
XIV Corps Combat Engineer Regiment
3rd Regiment
192nd Tank Battalion
762nd Tank Battalion
1st Australian Division
3rd Marine Division
77th Infantry Division
819th Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
110th Combat Engineer Battalion
7th Infantry Division
93rd Infantry Division
2/4th Armoured Regiment
98th Infantry Division
2/6th Armoured Regiment
131st Combat Engineer Regiment
11th Airborne Div /2
82nd Mortar Battalion
I US Corps
I Corps Artillery
205th Field Artillery Battalion
265th Coastal Artillery Regiment
160th USA Base Force
8th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
3rd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
147th Field Artillery Regiment
Provisional GMC Grp

Defending units:
Karafuto Mixed Brigade
72nd Division
51st Ind.Mixed Brigade
43rd Div /2
89th Div /2
23rd Air Flotilla
11th Ind.Mixed Regiment
5th Fleet
Soya Fortress
29th Field AF Construction Battalion
206th Naval Construction Battalion
218th Naval Construction Battalion
178th JAAF AF Bn

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2355
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 1:44:48 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
Jan 5-6, 1945


Nothing happened on the 5th, just a further clean up at Wakkanai by the Allies. At least the garrison is dying slowly there. I'm taking out as much as I can, but really will only get a portion of the good 89th division.

On the 6th the Allies try Kushiro again but this time find the good air groups back. The Georges and Franks do some work, and the CAP is resilient enough to stick around for the main show.

When the 4Es arrive the CAP is still 75 strong, and the strikes are not well coordinated. Lots of good escorts are lost for the Allies, and every wave has the CAP getting into the bombers, both reducing their effectiveness and knocking a few down.

On the day the Allies lose about 20 4E and 93 airframes total to Japan's 56. Pilot losses are very low for the Japanese. A good day in the air!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jan 5, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Wakkanai (122,48)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 58944 troops, 902 guns, 1352 vehicles, Assault Value = 2103

Defending force 31534 troops, 246 guns, 4 vehicles, Assault Value = 238

Allied adjusted assault: 2078

Japanese adjusted defense: 237

Allied assault odds: 8 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
3341 casualties reported
Squads: 219 destroyed, 12 disabled
Non Combat: 14 destroyed, 77 disabled
Engineers: 17 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 31 (21 destroyed, 10 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
312 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 22 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 15 disabled

Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled

Assaulting units:
1st Australian Division
762nd Tank Battalion
192nd Tank Battalion
XIV Corps Combat Engineer Regiment
819th Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
98th Infantry Division
93rd Infantry Division
2/6th Armoured Regiment
110th Combat Engineer Battalion
2/4th Armoured Regiment
7th Infantry Division
3rd Marine Division
3rd Regiment
77th Infantry Division
131st Combat Engineer Regiment
11th Airborne Div /2
3rd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
82nd Mortar Battalion
I Corps Artillery
I US Corps
147th Field Artillery Regiment
8th USMC Field Artillery Battalion
160th USA Base Force
205th Field Artillery Battalion
265th Coastal Artillery Regiment
Provisional GMC Grp

Defending units:
72nd Division
Karafuto Mixed Brigade
43rd Div /2
51st Ind.Mixed Brigade
89th Div /2
11th Ind.Mixed Regiment
5th Fleet
23rd Air Flotilla
206th Naval Construction Battalion
Soya Fortress
218th Naval Construction Battalion
29th Field AF Construction Battalion
178th JAAF AF Bn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jan 6, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 44 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 16 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 14
J2M5 Jack x 27
N1K1-J George x 12
N1K5-J George x 52
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 17
Ki-84a Frank x 9
Ki-84r Frank x 28

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 1 destroyed
J2M5 Jack: 2 destroyed
N1K5-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 7 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 44 NM, estimated altitude 35,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 12
J2M5 Jack x 24
N1K1-J George x 12
N1K5-J George x 50
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 14
Ki-84a Frank x 9
Ki-84r Frank x 24

Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 27

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M5 Jack: 1 destroyed
N1K5-J George: 1 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 5 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x F6F-3 Hellcat sweeping at 30000 feet *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 12 NM, estimated altitude 24,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 12
J2M5 Jack x 22
N1K1-J George x 12
N1K5-J George x 46
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 14
Ki-84a Frank x 9
Ki-84r Frank x 22

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M5 Jack: 1 destroyed
N1K5-J George: 2 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 2 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 34 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 4
J2M5 Jack x 9
N1K1-J George x 8
N1K5-J George x 31
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 7
Ki-84a Frank x 6
Ki-84r Frank x 10

Allied aircraft
P-51D Mustang x 18
PB4Y-2 Privateer x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K5-J George: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-51D Mustang: 3 destroyed
PB4Y-2 Privateer: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
PB4Y-2 Privateer: 1 destroyed by flak


Resources hits 6
Manpower hits 1
Fires 610


Aircraft Attacking:
8 x PB4Y-2 Privateer bombing from 9000 feet
City Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 72 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 2
J2M5 Jack x 8
N1K1-J George x 5
N1K5-J George x 26
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 4
Ki-84a Frank x 4
Ki-84r Frank x 6

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 22
B-29-1 Superfort x 6
P-51D Mustang x 2
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 20

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 9 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 2 damaged
P-51D Mustang: 1 destroyed
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 destroyed, 15 damaged


Resources hits 34
Manpower hits 18
Fires 9760


Aircraft Attacking:
9 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 9000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 69 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 2
J2M5 Jack x 7
N1K1-J George x 5
N1K5-J George x 21
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 3
Ki-84a Frank x 2
Ki-84r Frank x 6

Allied aircraft
P-51D Mustang x 5
PB4Y-2 Privateer x 9

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
P-51D Mustang: 1 destroyed
PB4Y-2 Privateer: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
PB4Y-2 Privateer: 1 destroyed by flak


Manpower hits 2
Fires 11880

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x PB4Y-2 Privateer bombing from 9000 feet
City Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 71 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 24 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 1
J2M5 Jack x 7
N1K1-J George x 4
N1K5-J George x 19
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 3
Ki-84a Frank x 2
Ki-84r Frank x 3

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 6
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M5 Jack: 1 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed
N1K5-J George: 3 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 6 destroyed


Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 9000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 35 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M5 Jack x 4
N1K1-J George x 2
N1K5-J George x 6
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 1
Ki-84a Frank x 2

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Resources hits 1
Fires 4680


Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 9000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 31 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M5 Jack x 2
N1K1-J George x 2
N1K5-J George x 6
Ki-84a Frank x 1

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 2 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak

Manpower hits 2
Fires 5200


Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 9000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 12 NM, estimated altitude 45,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M5 Jack x 1
N1K1-J George x 2
N1K5-J George x 5
Ki-84a Frank x 1

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed
N1K5-J George: 1 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 3 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Wakkanai (122,48)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 58213 troops, 871 guns, 1329 vehicles, Assault Value = 2116

Defending force 28505 troops, 222 guns, 4 vehicles, Assault Value = 203

Allied adjusted assault: 1626

Japanese adjusted defense: 137

Allied assault odds: 11 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
2942 casualties reported
Squads: 88 destroyed, 36 disabled
Non Combat: 10 destroyed, 61 disabled
Engineers: 17 destroyed, 2 disabled
Guns lost 46 (32 destroyed, 14 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
259 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 22 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 41 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 8 (5 destroyed, 3 disabled)
Vehicles lost 53 (5 destroyed, 48 disabled)


Assaulting units:
192nd Tank Battalion
819th Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
3rd Marine Division
3rd Regiment
131st Combat Engineer Regiment
98th Infantry Division
7th Infantry Division
1st Australian Division
77th Infantry Division
93rd Infantry Division
XIV Corps Combat Engineer Regiment
2/6th Armoured Regiment
762nd Tank Battalion
2/4th Armoured Regiment
110th Combat Engineer Battalion
11th Airborne Div /2
265th Coastal Artillery Regiment
147th Field Artillery Regiment
205th Field Artillery Battalion
82nd Mortar Battalion
I Corps Artillery
I US Corps
160th USA Base Force
Provisional GMC Grp

Defending units:
51st Ind.Mixed Brigade
89th Division
43rd Div /2
29th Field AF Construction Battalion
Karafuto Mixed Brigade
206th Naval Construction Battalion
Soya Fortress
11th Ind.Mixed Regiment
218th Naval Construction Battalion
23rd Air Flotilla
5th Fleet
72nd Division
178th JAAF AF Bn

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2356
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 2:08:39 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 17342
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
I have no experience with the KI 83...other than the obvious -- is he using a low layered defense?

Could simply have been good rolls....corsairs and spitfires are tough on defense.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2357
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 2:19:46 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24453
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I have no experience with the KI 83...other than the obvious -- is he using a low layered defense?

Could simply have been good rolls....corsairs and spitfires are tough on defense.

Me neither, but look: it's a two-engine fighter! The maneuver has to be inferior to the single engine fighters. That's my guess.

_____________________________


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 2358
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 2:33:23 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I have no experience with the KI 83...other than the obvious -- is he using a low layered defense?

Could simply have been good rolls....corsairs and spitfires are tough on defense.


He's using layers but high and low. Some to max altitude, then mid-to-low layers. Odd, but it worked for these. Strange to see P-38s low, as their manoeuvre is crap. It could be that the one plane that can get over the top, the P-51D, is climbing and dives, then the Ki-83 doesn't get free shots at the lower planes as easily.

I'll keep an eye on different situations and what seems to be working or not.

I don't believe rolls change things that much, not at least across three separate combats. I didn't notice before though that it was thunderstorms, and I have noticed inconsistent results when it was storms before. So maybe just the weather!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 17 NM, estimated altitude 45,530 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-83 x 22

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 9
Kittyhawk IV x 6
P-38L Lightning x 30
P-51D Mustang x 13
F4U-1A Corsair x 25
F4U-1D Corsair x 39

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-83: 9 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38L Lightning: 1 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 2 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-83 sweeping at 41530 feet

CAP engaged:
VF-38 with F4U-1D Corsair (0 airborne, 16 on standby, 0 scrambling) Max altitude
7 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 39300 , scrambling fighters between 32000 and 39300.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
VF-6 with F4U-1D Corsair (4 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling) MAX altitude
15 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 39300 , scrambling fighters between 38000 and 39300.
Raid is overhead
VF-11 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 17 on standby, 0 scrambling) MID altitude
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 36900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
No.896 Sqn FAA with Spitfire VIII (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling) LOW altitude
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 40000 and 41500.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
No.24 Sqn RNZAF with Kittyhawk IV (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling) LOW altitude
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters to 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
3rd ACG/4th FS (C) with P-51D Mustang (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling) (Almost) MAX altitude
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 40000 , scrambling fighters between 40000 and 41900.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
21st FG/46th FS with P-38L Lightning (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling) MID altitude
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 19000 , scrambling fighters between 19000 and 40000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
475th FG/432nd FS with P-38L Lightning (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling) LOW altitude
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 40000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


< Message edited by obvert -- 8/29/2018 2:34:26 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 2359
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 2:54:38 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I have no experience with the KI 83...other than the obvious -- is he using a low layered defense?

Could simply have been good rolls....corsairs and spitfires are tough on defense.

Me neither, but look: it's a two-engine fighter! The maneuver has to be inferior to the single engine fighters. That's my guess.


It's a little better than most single engine late war Allied fighters for maneuvre, actually, at least below 32k.

Here are the current main competitors. The Ki-83 should have a slight advantage over all of them barring the F4U-1D and the Spit in a defensive role, or the P-47D25, which is very similar and has a slight advantage above 32k..




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 8/29/2018 2:57:15 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 2360
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 3:11:40 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
The opening salvo of the 7th scares the crap out of me!! Suddenly, sweeps appear from two hexes to the NW of Sapporo!!!

This is an unprecedentedly HUGE cooperating sweep, and the action is long and devastating.

Th Allied CVs move forward and engage ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Sapporo , at 120,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 40
J2M5 Jack x 22
N1K1-J George x 4
N1K2-J George x 94
N1K5-J George x 5
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 43
Ki-84b Frank x 24
Ki-100-I Tony x 96
Ki-102b Randy x 6

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 76
F4U-1D Corsair x 117

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 1 destroyed
J2M5 Jack: 1 destroyed
N1K2-J George: 4 destroyed
N1K5-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-84b Frank: 2 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 5 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 3 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
41 x F4U-1D Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet
25 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet
18 x F4U-1D Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet
18 x F4U-1D Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet
17 x F4U-1D Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 8/29/2018 3:17:20 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2361
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 3:13:07 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
A massively escorted strike comes in almost immediately. My fear is for the IJN at Sapporo, the six CA, one CL and three DDs remaining to guard the base.

Only 14 of the 75+ strike planes get through, and the IJN flak disturbs the rest enough to make them miss. Whew!!

But I knew this was not the end.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on TF, near Sapporo at 120,51

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 39
J2M5 Jack x 20
N1K1-J George x 4
N1K2-J George x 85
N1K5-J George x 4
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 25
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 37
Ki-84b Frank x 21
Ki-100-I Tony x 81
Ki-102b Randy x 6

Allied aircraft
Avenger II x 24
Hellcat I x 12
Hellcat F.II x 18
Seafire IIC x 25
F6F-3 Hellcat x 409
F6F-5 Hellcat x 136
SB2C-3 Helldiver x 20
TBM-3 Avenger x 33

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 2 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
Avenger II: 16 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 8 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 2 destroyed
SB2C-3 Helldiver: 6 destroyed, 1 damaged
SB2C-3 Helldiver: 1 destroyed by flak
TBM-3 Avenger: 15 destroyed, 3 damaged


Japanese Ships
CA Takao
CMc Kurokami
CA Atago
SC CHa-33
SC CHa-29

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Avenger II bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
4 x TBM-3 Avenger bombing from 5000 feet
Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb
2 x SB2C-3 Helldiver releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb, 2 x 250 lb SAP Bomb
6 x TBM-3 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 8/29/2018 3:18:44 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2362
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 3:22:47 PM   
obvert


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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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More sweeps come and do incredible damage. This is not looking good for the later naval strikes.

LBA strikes then begin to target the airfields, and fortunately they are not well coordinated. The CAP again gets through to the bombers without completely depleting the CAP.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Sapporo , at 120,51

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 61 NM, estimated altitude 41,300 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 49
J2M5 Jack x 17
N1K1-J George x 6
N1K2-J George x 79
N1K5-J George x 5
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 19
Ki-84b Frank x 18
Ki-100-I Tony x 61

Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 1 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed
N1K5-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 3 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 3 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Sapporo , at 120,51

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 64 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 21 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 44
J2M5 Jack x 14
N1K1-J George x 5
N1K2-J George x 72
N1K5-J George x 3
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 18
Ki-84b Frank x 14
Ki-100-I Tony x 48

Allied aircraft
F6F-5 Hellcat x 56
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 1 destroyed
N1K2-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 5 damaged
P1Y2 Frances: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-45 KAId Nick: 1 destroyed on ground


Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 5 destroyed
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 2 destroyed, 5 damaged


Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 15000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2363
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 3:27:03 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
After numerous 4E strikes, the afternoon phase sees another huge naval strike, but again with only a comparatively small number of strike planes relative to escorts. The escorts sweep ahead, but the CAP manages to hold, and only a few hits to some small minelayers are

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Sapporo at 120,51

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 7
J2M5 Jack x 2
N1K2-J George x 11
N1K5-J George x 1
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 24
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 4
Ki-84b Frank x 2
Ki-100-I Tony x 5

Allied aircraft
Avenger II x 2
Hellcat I x 12
Hellcat F.II x 18
Seafire IIC x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 44
F4U-1D Corsair x 17
F6F-3 Hellcat x 383
F6F-5 Hellcat x 127
TBM-1C Avenger x 17
TBM-3 Avenger x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 1 destroyed
N1K2-J George: 2 destroyed
N1K5-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 2 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
Hellcat I: 1 destroyed
Seafire IIC: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 2 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed
TBM-1C Avenger: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged
TBM-1C Avenger: 1 destroyed by flak
TBM-3 Avenger: 3 destroyed, 7 damaged


Japanese Ships
CA Nachi
CL Yura
CA Atago
CA Kumano
CA Takao
CA Mikuma
CA Aoba

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x Avenger II launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Mk XII Torpedo
13 x TBM-3 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
15 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
18 x F6F-3 Hellcat sweeping at 13000 feet
13 x F6F-3 Hellcat sweeping at 8000 feet
10 x F6F-3 Hellcat sweeping at 8000 feet
7 x Hellcat I sweeping at 12000 feet
5 x Seafire IIC sweeping at 6000 feet
14 x Hellcat F.II sweeping at 8000 feet
9 x F6F-5 Hellcat sweeping at 12000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Sapporo at 120,51

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M8 Zero x 1
N1K2-J George x 4
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 7
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 2
Ki-84b Frank x 1
Ki-100-I Tony x 1

Allied aircraft
P-38L Lightning x 42
SBD-5 Dauntless x 9
TBM-1C Avenger x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38L Lightning: 1 destroyed
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed
TBM-1C Avenger: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged


Japanese Ships
CMc Katoku, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
CMc Ento
CMc Kurokami, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CMc Ashizaki

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x SBD-5 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2364
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 3:29:09 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
Jan 7, 1945


The remaining CAs minus the repairing Myoko are stationed protecting Sapporo airfield. They are subject to a massively escorted strike from the Allied CVs, but the number of actual bombers is low, and the IJN gets very, very lucky here. The Allies send major sweeps, bombing runs, naval strikes, and everything seems to break our way. It's all ordered in a way that the CAP can handle, and they keep the Allies at bay for the most part. Some strikes do hit the airfield, and 20+ planes are torched, but the CAs make it through without a scratch, and now I'm left with a massive dilemma!

What do I do against the entire Allied fleet? Where are they going? Is this an invasion? A primitive strike to clear the remaining IJN threats? A combined strike to begin reducing Sapporo? What next?

This turn takes a lot of time and consideration. I don't know what to do, still. Could I extricate the CAs? Well, could I even get by the Allied fleet, and if I do, then the airfield is open to any bombardment. Should I stay and battle it out? Well, then I'll see 100 Fletchers and Sumners, and probably the Iowas, and lose the CAs plus the fields. Should I keep up CAP, or disperse it all to other bases and LR CAP? Should I set naval strikes and send in the KB? Well, maybe thats the entire goal of this op and the CVs will move forward to be sure to engage, and then I lose the KB.

There is no right choice here. I have to go with my gut and imagine being in the Allied shoes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jan 7, 1945
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Wakkanai (122,48)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 19799 troops, 420 guns, 868 vehicles, Assault Value = 2004

Defending force 26105 troops, 182 guns, 4 vehicles, Assault Value = 158

Allied adjusted assault: 839

Japanese adjusted defense: 87

Allied assault odds: 9 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-), preparation(-), fatigue(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1379 casualties reported
Squads: 112 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 16 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 4 disabled
Guns lost 22 (13 destroyed, 9 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
99 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 15 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 9 (1 destroyed, 8 disabled)


Assaulting units:
XIV Corps Combat Engineer Regiment
93rd Infantry Division
1st Australian Division
3rd Marine Division
192nd Tank Battalion
98th Infantry Division
819th Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
2/6th Armoured Regiment
131st Combat Engineer Regiment
7th Infantry Division
762nd Tank Battalion
110th Combat Engineer Battalion
3rd Regiment
2/4th Armoured Regiment
11th Airborne Div /2
3rd NZ Bde /1
I US Corps
205th Field Artillery Battalion
265th Coastal Artillery Regiment
82nd Mortar Battalion
147th Field Artillery Regiment
160th USA Base Force
8th USN Naval Construction Battalion
166th USA Base Force
I Corps Artillery
Provisional GMC Grp
871st Engineer Aviation Battalion
29th USN Naval Const Rgt /3

Defending units:
Karafuto Mixed Brigade
72nd Division
89th Division
43rd Div /2
29th Field AF Construction Battalion
218th Naval Construction Battalion
5th Fleet
Soya Fortress
206th Naval Construction Battalion
23rd Air Flotilla
11th Ind.Mixed Regiment
51st Ind.Mixed Brigade
178th JAAF AF Bn

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The carnage is real. We lose a lot of good fighters, again, and although the Allies do as well, this doesn't bode well for tomorrow. Luckily I do have more I can rotate in. Those Corsair sweeps were much too effective though. I've got to get over them next time, so some CAP will be set high for tomorrow.



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 8/29/2018 3:34:44 PM >


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2365
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 3:33:08 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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Here is a sample of my rollover! I have no idea how many TFs I can't see. What do I do? Is this something that might move on to land at Akita? Or farther?

Is this just a massive show of power that will wipe away the defences here?

What would you do?




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2366
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 3:39:18 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 25437
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

What would you do?



Bust out the tatami mat, rice paper caligraphy and wakizashi, buddy. You're going to need them.

_____________________________


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2367
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 3:52:37 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

What would you do?



Bust out the tatami mat, rice paper caligraphy and wakizashi, buddy. You're going to need them.




_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 2368
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 4:19:45 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 17342
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


What would you do?




Send as many two ship task forces into it as you can with anything that carries a torpedo. Set TF to direct (you could try safe but the routines might not let you), low. Have them return to a non obvious close port and CAP the bejesus out of it, let some CAP bleed as long as it doesn't bleed into the likely heavily swept bases.

Shoot for a night time fight.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 2369
RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs Historiker (A) - 8/29/2018 4:40:06 PM   
obvert


Posts: 12929
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


What would you do?




Send as many two ship task forces into it as you can with anything that carries a torpedo. Set TF to direct (you could try safe but the routines might not let you), low. Have them return to a non obvious close port and CAP the bejesus out of it, let some CAP bleed as long as it doesn't bleed into the likely heavily swept bases.

Shoot for a night time fight.



Trouble is that's only cruisers, as the escorts are mostly gone from the last battles at Wakkanai I have just enough for the KB and one BB TF now.

You're the master of the small ship night engagements, but I just don't have anything small left!!

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 2370
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