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I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 6:19:44 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		**warning

if you are interessed i could tell you that **** is cheating. i have prove of it!!!!
he is increasing pilot exp an troop xp and if he need
he change TOE
it seems like he is hacking the savefiles like he need it**


This was sent to me on a different forum...I deleted the accused players name.....Could this be done by a very tech. smart player ? Just a word regarding the game against the accused player.......My pilot exp. is rising alarmingly slow and his pilots eat ALL my guys for breakfast but since I have nothing to compare it with I thought it wasn't a problem.....But recently I have started a game as the Japs.....SCN#2, just like the other game.....In that game my Jap. pilots don't come anywhere close to the domination that the first game has as the Jps.......I know this is almost imposable to figure out if cheating is going on....I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to my opponent....He is a VERY good player and I wouldn't find the game any fun if you had to change the Pilot exp. and other things just to win. Any comments would be of great interest to me, Thanks.


< Message edited by sdhundt -- 3/18/2012 6:36:23 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 6:29:35 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41460
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I'd ask for this "prove" the individual claims to have.

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to sdhundt)
Post #: 2
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 6:34:31 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		I did ask for the PROOF about an hour ago but I have not gotten any response as of yet. I have not and will not address this to my opponent unless I have HARD proof. I have been playing the SCN#2 against the accused player for over 15 months and I'm not going to end it over what looks to be an angry player....But I will listen to his PROOF if he has it.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 3
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 6:47:50 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Steven,

Keep cool. You´ve probably read Gudi1979s thread in the german forum. We´re discussing that thing the whole afternoon.
I looked at the save-files and they are indeed VERY strange, but i´m not experienced enough with AE and especially with the allied side.
Already asked a more experienced player for help. He might look at the allied side and tell me what he thinks.

Some things made me really wonder (early november 1942), especially:

1. 24 allied air units with 90xp, most of them did not even see combat
2. he has HUNDREDs of 90exp pilots, many of them without kills or even flown missions..as far as i know pure training can´t do that
3. Lots of ground units with 99exp and 99 morale (many of them chinese). Counted 35 active units with these stats

I really hope we can figure out whats going on there.

(in reply to sdhundt)
Post #: 4
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 6:54:32 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9600
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		editted out due to seille's post


< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 3/18/2012 6:56:33 PM >

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to sdhundt)
Post #: 5
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 6:59:15 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		impressive stats ;-)
http://www.si-games.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21914&page=12


_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 6
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 7:07:58 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3079
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: online
quote:

impressive stats ;-)
http://www.si-games.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21914&page=12


For anyone interest Google Chrome will offer to translate many foreign language pages including the one referenced above. I must say this player seem to have achieved a training level far beyond anything else I have ever seen. Strange

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Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 7
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 7:16:56 PM   
Smeulders

 

Posts: 1879
Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

impressive stats ;-)
http://www.si-games.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21914&page=12


For anyone interest Google Chrome will offer to translate many foreign language pages including the one referenced above. I must say this player seem to have achieved a training level far beyond anything else I have ever seen. Strange


It looks like either a bug or cheating. Not sure the second is possible, though if people (tracker) manage to read out information from the save files, then people will probably manage to find out how a save file looks with some chosen stats changed.

One thing that I'm not quite clear on (probably due to my sub-par German), how did the player manage to get these screenshots ? The "accused" player certainly didn't give his password, because he asks this question himself. I'm not sure if he gets an answer to that.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 8
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 7:31:19 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		"wollte das spiel was er beendet hat, halt weiterspielen mit nem kumpel. da sich roy wie ich nun weis aus sehr guten grund geweigert hat das pw weiterzuleiten hab ich es mir bei matrix besorgt."
"I wanted to keep on playing the game roy ended with a friend. Roy denied, for good reasons as we know now, giving out his passwort, so I was provided with it by matrix."

While that sounds strange and I wouldn't expect matrix to take care of such things, the accused player doesn't deny that the pictures are true. He says he has achieved that by "tricks", which he doesn#t reveal. So the rest is sure this is either bugusing/exploits or editing of safe files, especially as only the units needed have such stats and as units just in fighting are filled with 90XP pilots with 0 Missions.


_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to Smeulders)
Post #: 9
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 7:34:32 PM   
frank1970


Posts: 1678
Joined: 9/1/2000
From: Bayern
Status: offline 		"wollte das spiel was er beendet hat, halt weiterspielen mit nem kumpel. da sich roy wie ich nun weis aus sehr guten grund geweigert hat das pw weiterzuleiten hab ich es mir bei matrix besorgt. und was fragt mein kumpel mich ob das mein Ernst ist mit dem Spiel. ich natürlich nachgefragt, worauf er nur sagte ich soll mir das ganze ma ansehen. Ich Sag nur erschreckende Bilder die sich da gezeigt haben."

"I wanted to continue the game he had ended with a friend of mine. Because Roy did not give me the password ( I know the reason now), I got it from matrix games. My friend complaind whether I was sure with the game. He just told me to look myself. I was shocked."


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(in reply to Smeulders)
Post #: 10
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 7:40:58 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 22902
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		99 experience Chinese Corps with 600 infantry squads....LOL. They could WALK across the East China Sea and take Tokyo in a week.


How could the opponent fail to notice?


This is causing the Bull****ometer to peg, especially the bit about getting the password from Matrix.

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 11
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 7:42:40 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		Well now things are looking to be VERY strange indeed.....I don't want to point any fingers at what now looks to be either a bug or sad to say a player that is cheating, IS CHEATING the correct word to be used here ? Or is he just taking advantage of the game system ? It looks like cheating.

(in reply to frank1970)
Post #: 12
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 7:47:09 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		I guess it's my FAULT for not taking notice....I just didn't think a player would go to such lengths to cheat...What's the FUN in the game if you change how powerful your troops are just to win the game...It's not a game then it's just a computer screen with events taking place and you already know the outcome...No fun in that kind of game

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 13
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 7:47:27 PM   
Hiltibrant

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 1/5/2012
Status: offline 		To offer a quick transcript of what the linked thread was about:

It seems that it is indeed possible to "hack" the data during ongoing pbems. The example AAR linked to had ended due to personal reasons, and the other player just ventured to have a look at his opponent's side when he discovered several things which seemed not only fishy, but really impossible due to game mechanics. (In the thread it says that his opponent, the one accused of cheating, refused to share the pw, but that he got it from Matrixgames when he contacted them). That's how he got around to taking screenshots detailing what he discovered:

1. Several Chinese LCUs with Exp 99 and Morale 90.
2. A total of 24 Allied air units consisting entirely of 90 exp pilots, most of which had no kill and hadn't even seen frontline use
3. Some other players had a look at the savegames and found that several locations had much more supply than seemed possible due to supply-flow mechanics, and that hardly any area suffered supply problems (not even China).
4. A few of the commentators loaded several savegames into tracker and confirmed that some of the dubious pilots had indeed "jumped" from 30 exp to 90 exp in a matter of 75 days.
5. Some commentators expressed that they had played pbems against the individual in question and had experienced several strange situations involving him over the years, so this seems to have been going on for quite some time.

So yeah, it seems that a pbem game is susceptible to database-changes.

(in reply to Smeulders)
Post #: 14
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 7:52:09 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		How very, very sad......It ALL makes sense now.......Shame on me for giving a player such trust....Why even play the game if you are going to edit the results to ALWAYS be in your favor....What a waste of 15 moths of game play.....Leason learned.

(in reply to Hiltibrant)
Post #: 15
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 7:53:54 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

How very, very sad......It ALL makes sense now.......Shame on me for giving a player such trust....Why even play the game if you are going to edit the results to ALWAYS be in your favor....What a waste of 15 moths of game play.....Leason learned.

I played him too, you're not alone!

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to sdhundt)
Post #: 16
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 7:54:34 PM   
aztez

 

Posts: 4031
Joined: 2/26/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I can say having two PBEM's in late years that you wohn't see those kind of pilot experience nor LCU experience even than.

It is either an bug which itself sounds odd.. propably someone is able to modify data in ongoing games.

Is this person active in these forums as well?

(in reply to sdhundt)
Post #: 17
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 8:30:44 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		Yes, he was. When you open the game file with the good 'ol hex editor, it shows a lot of data. Not that I'd know how or whether to changes are possible, but the accused works in the IT sector...

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to aztez)
Post #: 18
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 8:36:05 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		I just don't see the FUN in playing the game if you edit it to always win..It's no longer a game if you cheat like this....Maybe the whole point was to put his "IT" knowledge to use in witpae just to see how smart he is or to just see if he could change the game....Either way i ask WHY even play the game if your plan is to change the outcome in a way where you always WIN .....Not any fun in that.....I still find it hard to believe ROY is doing this but it ALL points to him messing with the game system so he wins....Ugh, very sad.

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 19
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 8:45:14 PM   
Historiker


Posts: 4742
Joined: 7/4/2007
From: Deutschland
Status: offline 		I doubt many here would see any sense in cheating to that extent.
Anyways, it is now said that the other one sent the game file to matrix and they resetted the password.

< Message edited by Historiker -- 3/18/2012 8:51:33 PM >

_____________________________

Without any doubt: I am the spawn of evil - and the Bavarian Beer Monster (BBM)!

There's only one bad word and that's taxes. If any other word is good enough for sailors; it's good enough for you. - Ron Swanson

(in reply to sdhundt)
Post #: 20
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 9:03:37 PM   
seille

 

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		It is not sure the savegame itself was modified, it might have been a exploit. For me that doesn´t really matter to be honest.

I actually look at the savegames to find the point the game was "manipulated" loading the turns in 10-steps. And i just found air units climbing
30XP within 10 turns. Looks like an exploit to me, but not fully sure. The problem is there are not only the air units, no there are many ground units which look
modified,too.
I´ll load more turns tomorrow into tracker and then send my findings to MichaelM, so he can hopefully fix the problem.

(in reply to Historiker)
Post #: 21
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 9:38:40 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		UGHH, it keeps getting worse regarding ROY....Here is a German forum where he was uncovered, here is the link.....http://www.si-games.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21914&page=12.....Very sad on what many thought was a very, very elite top player...How the mighty have fallen...At least I now know I wasn't as bad a player as I thought. ROY will NEVER get a game again...At least not here, very sad but at least he has been exposed.

(in reply to seille)
Post #: 22
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 10:00:55 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14046
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline 		Well, if he wants to play again, and can do this with computers and code, it shouldn't be hard for him to just get another email and sign up as someone new, right?

(in reply to sdhundt)
Post #: 23
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 10:29:04 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10466
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

**warning

if you are interessed i could tell you that **** is cheating. i have prove of it!!!!
he is increasing pilot exp an troop xp and if he need
he change TOE
it seems like he is hacking the savefiles like he need it**


This was sent to me on a different forum...I deleted the accused players name.....Could this be done by a very tech. smart player ? Just a word regarding the game against the accused player.......My pilot exp. is rising alarmingly slow and his pilots eat ALL my guys for breakfast but since I have nothing to compare it with I thought it wasn't a problem.....But recently I have started a game as the Japs.....SCN#2, just like the other game.....In that game my Jap. pilots don't come anywhere close to the domination that the first game has as the Jps.......I know this is almost imposable to figure out if cheating is going on....I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to my opponent....He is a VERY good player and I wouldn't find the game any fun if you had to change the Pilot exp. and other things just to win. Any comments would be of great interest to me, Thanks.



When it comes to security - there are no absolutes. So we cannot say the game is 100% crack proof. However, compared to WITP stock ... the WITP/AE security system is almost infinitely better.

Since part of a security system's ability to function is based on how it works being a secret - I will not further describe how WITP/AE security works. But I can say that I do not think any of us who worked on the project could successfully edit the save file in a meaningful way and we KNOW how the security works. Yes, you can see data in there ... but it is scrambled in multiple dimensions ...

General advice is ... if you don't trust your opponent ... don't play the game with them ... and this is true for any game .. poker ... monopoly ... chess ... Axis and Allies ... even little ole WITP/AE.

If you must play against people you don't know ... play a few shorter scenarios first to primarily make sure your playing styles and communication styles are compatible ... as well as trying to develop a mutual sense of trust ... BEFORE you dive in to a >1 year campaign game ...

... security is like a wall .... we can make it has high as our stake holders want us to make us ... but we cannot really make it infinitely high ... we made the WITP/AE wall much, much, much higher than the WITP stock wall ... but it is not infinitely high ...



_____________________________

AE Project Lead
New Game Project Lead

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Post #: 24
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 10:33:25 PM   
witp1951


Posts: 118
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: Tennessee
Status: offline 		Is this exploit/file manipulation legitimate? I have been playing him and I am retreating in China as Japan in Feb 1942. Units I thought I had crushed in Malaya are showing up in Singapore at full strength. I thought I was playing an elite opponent. Is there someone at Matrix who can check my savefile?

_____________________________

Baka wa shinanakya naoranai

Dog

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Post #: 25
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 10:36:42 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		What sense or fun does it have to manipulate a game like this? Some people have serious ethical issues.

I really feel bad for his opponents. WitP AE is something we spend much time with, to be cheated in such a way is
disgusting.

_____________________________


(in reply to sdhundt)
Post #: 26
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 10:43:53 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witp1951

Is this exploit/file manipulation legitimate? I have been playing him and I am retreating in China as Japan in Feb 1942. Units I thought I had crushed in Malaya are showing up in Singapore at full strength. I thought I was playing an elite opponent. Is there someone at Matrix who can check my savefile?


Just read the last few pages of the German AAR, he claims that he only "manipulated the game in ways possible for every other player", although personally I have serious doubts
and independent of the answer it does not make such acitons legit in any way.

There is a small chance that he found an in-game way to perform all those manipulations. If this is the case it is something he should have reported instead of exploited.
You could post in the tech forum with savegame attached and ask for a quick analysis, maybe it helps in finding the leak.



_____________________________


(in reply to witp1951)
Post #: 27
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 11:06:13 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1623
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
only an idiot would cheat at a game where there is no money involved

.. and even then.. don't recommend it

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"No Enemy Survives Contact with the Plan" - Commander Stormwolf

(in reply to sdhundt)
Post #: 28
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 11:10:55 PM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3627
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


only an idiot would cheat at a game where there is no money involved

.. and even then.. don't recommend it



Words of wisdom right here.

_____________________________

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)
Post #: 29
RE: I was sent this WARNING..... - 3/18/2012 11:18:35 PM   
witp1951


Posts: 118
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: Tennessee
Status: offline 		My opponent just emailed me claiming he has not cheated but made use of the game engine. He has withdrawn from our game.

Edited: I have most of the save files if anyone at Matrix is interested they can PM me.

< Message edited by witp1951 -- 3/18/2012 11:38:11 PM >

_____________________________

Baka wa shinanakya naoranai

Dog

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 30
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