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Why not put my whole army in refit mode?

 
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Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 2/29/2012 7:13:10 PM   
AFV


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Just a question, I'm more interested in the Soviet perspective since they have so many units with moral less than 50 at the start.

Since you can gain moral in refit mode, why not put your whole army in refit mode?
I can see the answer being "because then the units you need to get replacements will not recieve them." Then I would just adjust the TOE on the units that need moral but dont really need replacements. I can also see the answer as being "because its gamey", which I would agree.

Or, is the game coded such that if a unit doesn't actually receive replacements (based on the TOE setting), then you don't receive any moral bumps?

Or, am I misunderstanding how refit and moral works (which is very likely).
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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 2/29/2012 7:19:10 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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By putting everyone in refit, you lose any control over who gets the limited amount of replacements. It's a bad idea.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 2/29/2012 7:19:52 PM   
Walloc

 

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U use to be right, but that loophole has been closed.

v1.05.18 ¡V September 6, 2011
New Features and Rule Changes

19) Changes to Morale Rules

d. Changed rule so that the morale gain from refit when under 50 morale is only gained when the unit in refit is at least 10 hexes from a supplied enemy unit (similar to the current gain if less than morale 50 and 10 or more hexes from enemy unit).

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 2/29/2012 7:20:52 PM >

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 2/29/2012 8:00:31 PM   
AFV


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JAMiAM- I understand that, but like I pointed out, I would manually control it with the TOE for the units. However, is moot as what Walloc pointed out with the patch notes, which should be reflected in the manual but is not.

Thanks guys.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 2/29/2012 8:36:59 PM   
Q-Ball


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Units on REFIT are also more likely to swap-out and upgrade equipment. And you might not always want to do that, particularly when the Rifle Squads upgrade on either side. If everything is on REFIT, the AI will want to swap-out every Rifle Squad on REFIT, resulting in a huge armaments drain all at once. This is an example of why keeping everyone on REFIT is a bad idea.

I do use it alot though, I like to pick what units get REFIT.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 2/29/2012 9:09:04 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

By putting everyone in refit, you lose any control over who gets the limited amount of replacements. It's a bad idea.


Also, reserve mode is huge.



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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 2/29/2012 11:06:05 PM   
AFV


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What do you mean reserve mode is huge?

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/1/2012 1:27:19 AM   
Flaviusx


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I mean it's huge.

I believe it is amazingly underused and may be the reason why so many Soviet players are having problems right now, particularly in 42. It's the best defensive tool in the kit now that forts are much diminished.

You put lots and lots of stuff on reserve and you will give the Axis real problems. The Soviet Union is in a great position to make the most of reserve stance because of its enormous number of units. They can easily put half or more of their army in reserve stance by autumn of 41. In 1942 maybe even more than that.

When you have literally hundreds of units in reserve, something will react. A single rifle divisions reacting to an attack can more often than not turn that combat into a hold result. All of a sudden, the Axis player can't predict what happens anymore. They hate that. Every combat starts looking incredibly chancy.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/1/2012 1:49:49 AM   
AFV


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Ah thanks. Makes sense, I will use that more.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/1/2012 2:34:39 AM   
gradenko2k

 

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Echoing Flavuisx's love for Reserve mode. They can produce some very surprising Held results for the Axis player. You could technically get by with everyone on refit if you don't mind the ARM drain and then micro-managing the Morale gains by moving this and that unit 10 hexes out, but you'd lose out on the usefulness of reserves.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/1/2012 3:34:49 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

Echoing Flavuisx's love for Reserve mode. They can produce some very surprising Held results for the Axis player. You could technically get by with everyone on refit if you don't mind the ARM drain and then micro-managing the Morale gains by moving this and that unit 10 hexes out, but you'd lose out on the usefulness of reserves.

You're more likely to get a morale boost from a held result than you are from the refit bonus anyhow. So, it pays double dividends.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/1/2012 8:56:15 AM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I mean it's huge.

I believe it is amazingly underused and may be the reason why so many Soviet players are having problems right now, particularly in 42. It's the best defensive tool in the kit now that forts are much diminished.

You put lots and lots of stuff on reserve and you will give the Axis real problems. The Soviet Union is in a great position to make the most of reserve stance because of its enormous number of units. They can easily put half or more of their army in reserve stance by autumn of 41. In 1942 maybe even more than that.

When you have literally hundreds of units in reserve, something will react. A single rifle divisions reacting to an attack can more often than not turn that combat into a hold result. All of a sudden, the Axis player can't predict what happens anymore. They hate that. Every combat starts looking incredibly chancy.

I guess the proof is in the pudding, but in theory that doesn't stack. For one, by autumn 1941 the Russians shouldn't have that many units around, they will probably be scrabbling around trying to maintain a frontline. Secondly, where they do have some depth, they may not have morale. If the unit the Axis attacks routs, don't the reserves also? Depth disappeared in one attack, not good. Thirdly, these units will probably get attacked from the air on their way to battle, greatly reducing their effectiveness.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/1/2012 10:18:53 AM   
randallw

 

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15.5.3. DEFENSIVE RESERVE UNIT SPECIAL RULES
Defending units committed from reserve may rout if the battle result forces the defender to retreat from the combat. Defending units committed from reserve will not be eligible to rout if they pass a check where their Morale is greater than or equal to 40+die(15). This means that if their morale is 55 or greater they will never rout from a reserve commitment, but if their morale is 40 or lower they always will always be eligible to rout. The computer will never put a unit with morale less than 50 in reserve mode.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/1/2012 11:03:21 AM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

15.5.3. DEFENSIVE RESERVE UNIT SPECIAL RULES
The computer will never put a unit with morale less than 50 in reserve mode.

And neither will I, but units with 50+ morale are the exception for Russia in 1941

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/1/2012 1:14:37 PM   
Flaviusx


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Low to mid 40s is good enough for this, Mehring, I promise. And this reserve business winds up being a nice morale builder.

I only hesitate when the morale is absolutely craptastic. Defined for this purpose as sub 40 morale. Those guys...yeah, I have special missions for them in 1941. They go on suicide picket duty. If they die, great. I replace with them a cadre with much better morale. (Yes, it is actually faster in 1941 to build morale this way than to train units with especially bad morale.) If they don't die, also great. Keep sending them back out there until they do (at least until November, then you are stuck with training them.) Don't put these guys on refit, either. They can hug the Germans, put zocs on everybody, and cause them attrition losses.







< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 3/1/2012 1:15:45 PM >


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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/1/2012 2:00:24 PM   
Mehring

 

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That's interesting Flavius. I'll gently edge down the morale level of my reserves until I get some dire results.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/1/2012 2:20:09 PM   
Baelfiin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Low to mid 40s is good enough for this, Mehring, I promise. And this reserve business winds up being a nice morale builder.

I only hesitate when the morale is absolutely craptastic. Defined for this purpose as sub 40 morale. Those guys...yeah, I have special missions for them in 1941. They go on suicide picket duty. If they die, great. I replace with them a cadre with much better morale. (Yes, it is actually faster in 1941 to build morale this way than to train units with especially bad morale.) If they don't die, also great. Keep sending them back out there until they do (at least until November, then you are stuck with training them.) Don't put these guys on refit, either. They can hug the Germans, put zocs on everybody, and cause them attrition losses.


Speaking from painful personal experience, this is a great thing to do as the Russians.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/1/2012 3:20:48 PM   
Farfarer61

 

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Disrupting units you assess as in Reserve Mode is a particulary evil technique for Russians on the offensive. Using waves of 125 U2VS to prevent mobile units from reacting is very annoying to the Axis player. The Flak lossess can be high though.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/2/2012 8:50:03 PM   
kfmiller41


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quote:

I mean it's huge.

I believe it is amazingly underused and may be the reason why so many Soviet players are having problems right now, particularly in 42. It's the best defensive tool in the kit now that forts are much diminished.

You put lots and lots of stuff on reserve and you will give the Axis real problems. The Soviet Union is in a great position to make the most of reserve stance because of its enormous number of units. They can easily put half or more of their army in reserve stance by autumn of 41. In 1942 maybe even more than that.

When you have literally hundreds of units in reserve, something will react. A single rifle divisions reacting to an attack can more often than not turn that combat into a hold result. All of a sudden, the Axis player can't predict what happens anymore. They hate that. Every combat starts looking incredibly chancy.


Where was this piece of advice a week ago before i lost 700,000 men in a pocket Well now i know

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/2/2012 9:05:21 PM   
Flaviusx


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I should have said something about this long ago in truth.

Only recently has it dawned on me that most Soviet players aren't making much use of reserve stance. In the old days of overpowered forts you could get away with this, but now, not so much.

You will note that the top defensive Axis players use it a lot. They know its worth.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/2/2012 10:38:47 PM   
Aurelian

 

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Every brigade/division within six hexes of the front line is in reserve in my current PBEM game. (Turn 40)

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/2/2012 11:10:45 PM   
Mehring

 

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While the possible variable of an unknown CV being added to scupper a dead cert attack is attractive, there are four things which have always moderated my use of reserve status-

1. Units in reserve are not being refitted.
2. In relation to above, the small chance of their gainful commitment is often outweighed by loss of replacements from refit.
3. The risk of damage from combat or enemy air intervention en route, offer the enemy the possibility to reduce or clear more than one hex per attack, a great advantage to them.
4. The morale route from defender retreat stated in the manual.

All but one are doubtless familiar considerations for all players, but I wonder about 3. Firstly, what exactly are the possibilities of a reserve unit routing? The manual uses the phrase 'eligible to route", but the odds are not stated. If Flavius has got it right the AI Russian is set to put too few units in reserve.

Secondly, ground support on a well recced area will hit reserves as well. I've interdicted a number of enemy reserve interventions and took a terrible toll, I recall on Grossdeutschland particularly. :)

It has its place in the gambles a player must make to succeed, but I wonder whether reserve status isn't set to become another fad which works only when the opponent doesn't take appropriate counter measures.

< Message edited by Mehring -- 3/2/2012 11:12:26 PM >


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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/3/2012 12:43:06 AM   
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I have almost never had a reserve unit committed to defensive combat in a PBEM game. It frequently happens against the AI and in FTF games. I'm wondering if there's a difference in the way the engine is coded there.

In terms of refit mode, I frequently put my army into refit mode after pulling back a hex or two in the mud turns, or when the Germans are pulling back at the start of the blizzard. It means that any of your deep defense units that start the next impulse more than 10 hexes from a German unit can get a morale bonus. Since you never know where these are, it's hard to predict which units should go into refit mode and hence I put the whole lot in.

In most turns in early 41 I put the entire army into ready mode and only put the depleted / unready units back into refit mode. They are the ones you need to get the replacements into.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/3/2012 1:13:04 AM   
Flaviusx


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It happens to me pretty often in PBEM, I haven't noticed any difference in frequency between PBEM and solo. But you have to set up for it differently in PBEM and create ambush opportunities. Human opponents force you to defend in greater depth.





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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/3/2012 1:33:43 AM   
Farfarer61

 

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I still have a nagging intuition (after many games) that mass-REFIT force-pulls more replacements into your army than would otherwise occur. I do intend to modify ( i.e. reduce ) the refit use as Axis after reading Pelton's recommendation to funnel replacements to the highest morale Infantry Divs in 42 plus.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/4/2012 3:54:48 AM   
AFV


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Farfarer- it can't pull in more replacements than you have, right? Do you have an idea why you feel that happens?

It does make sense to set the high moral units to refit, and the low moral units to refit with a lowered tow and put them 10+ hexes away from enemy units, so they get moral bump but dont take away from the replacment pool.
Or use the really low morale units as speed bumps, if early in the game per Flav's suggestion, since it takes less time to get killed and come back than to pull them back and retrain (per Flav, I don't have enough experience to know this).

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/4/2012 1:34:02 PM   
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"I have almost never had a reserve unit committed to defensive combat in a PBEM game. It frequently happens against the AI and in FTF games. I'm wondering if there's a difference in the way the engine is coded there."

I have used good leaders and reserve mode to maddenly good effect in the defense of Pskov; even in June 41' Soviet armor will react and frustrate the hell out of foraging Panzers; it works quite well.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/6/2012 9:21:52 AM   
randallw

 

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Faced about 55 attacks by the computer on it's last turn; a reserve unit entered on defense 7 times for me, though at least 20 of the attacks were out of range for any eligible reserves to help out.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/6/2012 1:33:31 PM   
Zonso

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

I have almost never had a reserve unit committed to defensive combat in a PBEM game. It frequently happens against the AI and in FTF games. I'm wondering if there's a difference in the way the engine is coded there.


I have seen reserve units committed more times than I care to remember in all of my games, by my opponents and myself. I almost think it is too effective a tactic early on for the Russian though I have never progressed past '43 where the German side may need it by necessity and design also. There are things you can do to prevent or lessen the chance of reserve units committing - one, be super cautious and use overwhelming odds in the attack or two, try and get ZOCs around the hex being attacked, that way the reserve units are required to pay the increased MPs to commit. That is likely what's happening in your game.

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RE: Why not put my whole army in refit mode? - 3/6/2012 3:48:22 PM   
karonagames


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Reserves can also commit when attacking, and although I used to use them only for major river crossings and/or restricted frontages, I am now using it more to counter defensive reserve activations, as it seems that more soviet players have now discovered its effectiveness. My current game is becoming more like poker with raising and re-raising of reserves.

I look forward to annoying my opponent from 1943 onwards with my defensive reserve activations as much as he has annoyed me in 1941 and 1942.

A tip for Axis players moving from attack to defence: Initiative is the factor that matters most. Guderian, Manstein, Schorner and Kesselring in OKH and the Army Groups are defensive magic.

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 3/6/2012 3:49:50 PM >

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