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Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 2:47:10 AM   
Dili

 

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http://usssantafe.net/docs/the_battle_of_sitka_pip.htm

The Naval battle of Sitka Pip.

quote:

...Uncertainty reached it's peak during the last week of July leading up to the Battle of Sitka Pip. On 23 July a Catalina on patrol made contact with seven vessels about 200 miles southwest of Attu. This was first assumed to be our Task Force George but it was not. Then on July 26 began the fiasco, the genuine snafu, that we called The Battle of Sitka Pip. Actually, it was neither a fiasco nor snafu from the perspective of the time. After all, the spotting planes, the battleships, cruisers, and destroyers were equipped with July 1943 vintage radars. Both Task Groups were operating in company in the darkness on July 26 when they made contact with the supposedly seven vessels 90 miles southwest of Kiska. I vividly recall the scene in our CIC on that night when orders were given to all ships with radar contact to open fire. Reports immediately began coming in from several ships of salvos launched and speculations as to hits.

Aboard Santa Fe intent focus centered on our radar guys, some frantically urging target identification with eager trigger fingers. Speculation abounded.

"Are those guys firing at splashes?"

"New Mexico is letting go with 14-inchers - making hellava splash."

"Nah, there's something out there!"

Captain Berkey was cool as a cucumber, ordering that we hold fire until we had a sure fire target or targets. But so many ships were firing that the temptation mounted as time went on and the stress in CIC was intense. Gunners grumbled. Target ranges came in from 12,000 to 20,000 yards. Starshells were used but no targets were seen.

"Weather?" The Battle of Sitka Pip came and went and Santa Fe never fired a shot. But anxiety, and General Quarters, prevailed throughout most of the night which was not alleviated with the light of dawn when it was learned that an "investigation" by parties unknown would be conducted. Ultimately, Captain Berkey was fully vindicated for his calm demeanor under fire by "keeping his head while all about you others are losing theirs" and accepting the sound judgment of his radar gang that "there's nothing out there but high seas." But the echo of the gunner's bitter frustrations still ring in my ears of what I heard on the sound powered telephone in CIC the night of the Battle of Sitka Pip.

What we soon heard was not the results of an "investigation" but "suggestions" by a group of radar experts that the contacts some ships saw - or thought they saw - might have been caused by what they called "triple-trip echoes (or radar pips) from an island about 110 miles away". When we first heard it, the island named was Sitka and some wag aboard came up with the something to the effect that "Well, that was some battle we were in the other night, the Battle of Sita Pip." The experts had actually named Amchitka as the island echoed. They also made the hypothesis in the case of the New Mexico that target course and speed could have been developed by the use of ranges of 23,000 yards instead of 223,000 (the distance to Amchitka) which finally gave target course approximately parallel to the American force and speed slightly less.

But what a night! And what a battle! If you have any doubts, look at the official Navy record stating "The heavy ships of Task Group Gilbert alone punished the phantoms with 518 14-inch shells, 485 8-inch, 25 5-inch 38 caliber, and 76 5-inch 25 caliber." We also heard that the New Mexico was soon detached to the Bremerton Navy Yard to rebore her 14-inch guns, a casualty of the Battle of Sitka Pip....



So how you have reacted if your task force have wasted most ammunition against nothing - this with 1943 radars - and then next morning a Japanese task force appears...




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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 4:07:44 AM   
kaleun

 

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The game is borked! of course.

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 4:30:41 AM   
Xxzard

 

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Just imagine getting the message: "BB Mutsu explodes in port" for no war-related reason whatsoever. The hair-pulling rage would no doubt follow...



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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 7:47:23 AM   
Dadekster

 

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Thb I could accept it as long as there was a reason, such as magazine accident etc etc. Just getting "BB Mutsu explodes in port" and nothing else, yeah, well hell that'd make me explode. :)

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 8:16:54 AM   
jmalter

 

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true episode - 'the battle of the pips'. 'cos radar is like your cat, it can see things that people can't. 

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 11:52:25 AM   
oldman45


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If I saw a combat report like that I would laughed my ass off.

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 12:15:40 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


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OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Aug 07, 42

SS I-169 reports having been sighted by the enemy at 179 , 109
SS I-16 reports having been sighted by the enemy at 180 , 106
1st Art.Mortar Regiment packing for load on AMC Akagi Maru (TF 100), 2 day(s) remaining
18th Tank Regiment packing for load on AK Azuma Maru (TF 100), 2 day(s) remaining
18th Tank Regiment packing for load on AK Arizona Maru (TF 100), 2 day(s) remaining
1st Art.Mortar Regiment packing for load on AK Sydney Maru (TF 100), 2 day(s) remaining
No additional repairs possible on CL Kuma
using currently assigned resources at Ominato
BB Mutsu explodes at Yokohama/Yokosuka
No additional repairs possible on xAP Keihuku Maru
using currently assigned resources at Ominato
No additional repairs possible on xAKL Horei Maru

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 2:04:58 PM   
EUBanana


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I only wish my battleships would fire more shells than a heavy cruiser in a battle.

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 4:56:34 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

true episode - 'the battle of the pips'. 'cos radar is like your cat, it can see things that people can't.



It didn't involve any gunfire but twice I experienced some form of this phenomenon...once when I was a cadet on a cruise in the Med and once a few years later sorta near Sable Island Nova Scotia.

In both cases the radar pips seemed quite genuine and appeared to be reflections of some sort of maneuvering vessel but they were generally tracking as if to collide with us (which may have something to do with what we thought we were "seeing"). I was on the bridge "watching" developments on the bridge (radar) repeater in both cases but also in both cases the folks in CIC were plotting the pips as genuine targets. In the Med, the visibility was very good but we never saw a thing as the (one) radar pip seemed to track right in to a collision and then sail away on the other side. Off Sable Island however, it was very foggy and night with visibility restricted to just barely being able to make out the lookout on the bow from the bridge (100 ft +/-). There were multiple targets seemingly maneuvering at 4-5 kts in the manner one might expect of fishing boats (which would not be unheard of near Sable Island). More than once the "pips" seemed to approach within 100 yards but we (the Captain, the lookout on the bow, the rest of the bridge watch, and I) never saw or heard a thing (other than our own foghorn). That was just one long watch. The radar was an AN/SPS-51 which was surely a post-WWII radar although I don't really know its antecedents. Sure picked up targets well that night though a week before it had completely missed an iceberg in the fog that was a mere 500 yds wide and just barely stuck out of the sea 100 ft or so (suuprise, suuprise, suuprise).

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 6:52:33 PM   
dr.hal


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The atmosphere can cause interesting radar returns. While on watch in the Indian Ocean keeping the world safe from democracy, I was OOD and noticed that the PPI (radar scope repeater on the bridge) was giving a return of a "wall" approaching the ship. Yes a WALL... It stretched across the screen. It was a good return and was moving at about 40 knots. Me, the JOOD, lookouts and eventually the Captain all tried to see what was happening... NOTHING.

Then on the horizon a faint smudge like thin smoke stretched across our point of view. You couldn't see much but SOMETHING was there and it was approaching the ship fast. It dropped from 12 NM to 6 NM quickly... still NOTHING!!!

Then it engulfed the ship! Or at least hit the ship... but we still couldn't really "see" anything....

What was it?

We were about 600 NMs away from the nearest land...

Thoughts? Hal

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 7:40:36 PM   
drw61


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

The atmosphere can cause interesting radar returns. While on watch in the Indian Ocean keeping the world safe from democracy...


I'm guessing you meant safe for democracy

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 8:01:46 PM   
dr.hal


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Oh MY.... I seem to have messed up.. of COURSE I meant "for"... didn't I?

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 8:18:17 PM   
Feinder


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Nah. Would never happen.

"518 14-inch shells expended"

Our BBs in AE would never fire that many...



-F-

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 9:39:46 PM   
Nemo121


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In AE it'd be more 50 14 inch shells plus ALL their 20mm ammunition.

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/24/2012 10:44:34 PM   
sandman455


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Sand trapped and suspended in the evaporation duct. Factor in the ship's movement along with ambient winds, you could get 40kts of closure.

Either that, or you were traveling through perhaps another dimension. . . a dimension not only of sight and sound, but of mind; a journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. You crossed over into the . . .



quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

The atmosphere can cause interesting radar returns. While on watch in the Indian Ocean keeping the world safe from democracy, I was OOD and noticed that the PPI (radar scope repeater on the bridge) was giving a return of a "wall" approaching the ship. Yes a WALL... It stretched across the screen. It was a good return and was moving at about 40 knots. Me, the JOOD, lookouts and eventually the Captain all tried to see what was happening... NOTHING.

Then on the horizon a faint smudge like thin smoke stretched across our point of view. You couldn't see much but SOMETHING was there and it was approaching the ship fast. It dropped from 12 NM to 6 NM quickly... still NOTHING!!!

Then it engulfed the ship! Or at least hit the ship... but we still couldn't really "see" anything....

What was it?

We were about 600 NMs away from the nearest land...

Thoughts? Hal



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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/25/2012 2:36:08 AM   
Dili

 

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....Final Countdown http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=min2ohR8j3U


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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/25/2012 5:35:14 AM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: drw61


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

The atmosphere can cause interesting radar returns. While on watch in the Indian Ocean keeping the world safe from democracy...


I'm guessing you meant safe for democracy



OTOH, considering the average voters´ level of education and intellect, and the delta between what a politician is saying and what it
actually means, it might be an idea worth pursuing...


Isn´t it possible that such a phenomenon is caused by how, for example, tsunami waves can behave in open water?
Nearly indistinguishable from the horizon because there no land where the wave can break, a quite
noticeable water temperature drop along the the wave, and atmospheric condensation above that temperature drop
in humid conditions.

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/26/2012 3:31:36 AM   
bigred


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xxzard

Just imagine getting the message: "BB Mutsu explodes in port" for no war-related reason whatsoever. The hair-pulling rage would no doubt follow...



Well, the real question would be "do the allies get the VPs for the sunk Mitsu?"

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/26/2012 3:36:03 AM   
bigred


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quote:

safe from democracy


quote:

Sand trapped and suspended in the evaporation duct. Factor in the ship's movement along with ambient winds, you could get 40kts of closure.

Either that, or you were traveling through perhaps another dimension. . . a dimension not only of sight and sound, but of mind; a journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. You crossed over into the . . .


Could have been a time warped Big E.

< Message edited by bigred -- 1/26/2012 3:41:08 AM >

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/26/2012 10:28:50 AM   
henhute6

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

So how you have reacted if your task force have wasted most ammunition against nothing - this with 1943 radars - and then next morning a Japanese task force appears...



The same happened also with 1964 radars in gulf of Tonkin. Or it was just a false flag operation. In any case it lead to death of 6 million asians.

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/26/2012 10:02:55 PM   
Dili

 

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In short you are saying that resistance against Japanese or Nazis increased the number of dead.
I thought it was the Communist invasion...I keep wondering why the boat people preferred to live in a war country and when peace arrived they all run away from "peace". They were "Asians" too...
The Communists had resources and wanted to takeover until they were stopped. If the main war wasn't in Vietnam it will have been in Thailand, Malaysia etc...

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/27/2012 9:30:30 AM   
henhute6

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

In short you are saying that resistance against Japanese or Nazis increased the number of dead.
I thought it was the Communist invasion...I keep wondering why the boat people preferred to live in a war country and when peace arrived they all run away from "peace". They were "Asians" too...
The Communists had resources and wanted to takeover until they were stopped. If the main war wasn't in Vietnam it will have been in Thailand, Malaysia etc...

That's correct, resistance makes more casualties. The boat people were mainly ethnically chinese and they didn't feel safe after short war against China 1979. Some were also trying to find better living. Isn't operation barbarossa the main war against communism? Vietnam was insignificant. Actually who cares if they are communist? Well US government did care. :)

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RE: Would you believe this if it happened in game? - 1/27/2012 5:13:29 PM   
Dili

 

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I care. In case you don't know Communism is a Totalitarian ideology. And there isn't an ideology that killed so much of own people. Be they white, black, yellow or martians.

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