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Using Tac Air for Interdiction

 
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Using Tac Air for Interdiction - 1/13/2012 7:44:50 PM   
Hairog


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The US,Soviets and Germans counted on interdiction. It was a major component of their combined arms. After gaining air superiority they let loose their fighter bombers or ground attack aircraft and stopped anything from moving to or from the front during the daylight hours. This greatly crippled the Germans. It was a crucial part of the Allies tactics.

Remember the classic gun camera movies of the P38s and P47s shooting up trains and having them blow up in their faces or the stories of the panzers trying to make it to the front only to be rocketed by the IL2 or the P38s and the battle being lost. Even as early as 1939 the Stuka dive bombing the Poles, French and British slowing up their advance and counter attacks.

Interdiction is a vital piece of the Blizkrieg and Soviet Deep Battle as well as an essential part of the US Combined Arms Doctrine.

The Germans had there panzers. The Soviets had their artillery and the US had it's tactical air power. And interdiction was a major part of it's role. I guess you could say it is modeled in game by units taking hit points but much of it's major impact was slowing or stopping the movement of enemy units and cutting and destroying supply. Actual damage to the front line unit was also a major part but I would argue not as important as interdiction.

How about it could only occur within a certain distance from a city or unit? That way you wouldn't have bombers flying far inland hitting and isolated junction. But then again this was a major tactic in the US airwar.

There has to be a way to model it so that if you don't pay attention you'll get yourself in a pickle much like the Germans did after D-day when they tried to move the panzers to counter attack and they were slowed down and useless or the French in 1940 unable to bring their tanks to the battle.

Is there anyway to simulate TAC and Strat bomber attacks on RRs? It might be a great addition if an air unit could disrupt supply and strategic travel by a certain percentage for the turn it successfully attacks a RR hex.

Another idea might be that you could cut the supply route through a strategic hex for a turn and thus make an unit out of supply by air power along.

Some kind of formula based on the strength and level of the air unit that would either cut strategic movement and reduce supply level to a cities organic number if cut off from the supply source.

And example might be Danzig. If you bombed and cut that RR hex just south of the city it would fall back to it's 15 supply instead of it's 30 supply for a turn. In addition you could not move by strategic movement either to or from Danzig for a turn. In most cases this reduction in supply might not mean much but it could in certain situations.

Another example you could cut Warsaw off from Germany by successfully bombing the RR hex north and the on SW of the city and there-by drop the supply from 30 to 14 which may be significant in some cases as well as preventing any strategic movement.

The bombers would have to have another choice for an attack option. Call it INTERDICTION or something.

Making it so that you had to have air superiority to be able to attack would strengthen the air war game. more attacks on the enemies fighter units in order to eliminate them so you could use interdiction to slow up or isolate land units.

It seems to me I've played games that model this by having the hexes you interdict cost more to move through. Maybe that's the way to do it.

All in all it would be another tactical option and create another vital role for the fighter unit. The US spend much of their resources on fighters and winning air superiority over the battlefield in order to bring tactical fighter bombers into play.

I think it would add a quite different and realistic choice to this already great game and create a historically accurate use and reason for the fighter unit. Gain air superiority with your fighters and gain a huge advantage over the battlefield like historically was the case.


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RE: Using Tac Air for Interdiction - 1/14/2012 7:33:47 PM   
StellarRat

 

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I already asked that fighters be allowed to attack ground units with ground units as CAS (if the weather is clear) and they told me they intentionally did not want that. Personally, I think they should be able to at least slow down ground units and reduce the available supplies, but you never know, maybe if enough of us want this it might be possible.

(in reply to Hairog)
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RE: Using Tac Air for Interdiction - 1/14/2012 11:49:44 PM   
freeboy

 

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well, this is a simple game, thats its strength, and although interdiction and a host of other add ons may make the game feel better to you, I like the simple ease of play..
you want complex grog war buy wite

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RE: Using Tac Air for Interdiction - 1/15/2012 12:36:51 AM   
Wolfe1759


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I agree with freeboy, whilst there is a lot that could be added to the game, personally I think there is very little that should be added. Keep it simple and easy to play, sometimes less is more.

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RE: Using Tac Air for Interdiction - 1/15/2012 1:44:13 AM   
JLPOWELL


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There may be a simple solution which gives the 'feel' of air superiority. I see a couple of options:
1. FTR attacks on units hitting (reducing) enemy AP instead of actually doing damage Armor and Mechanized would be more vulnerable to this (AP for the following turn of course)
2. Formula which works behind the scenes and emulates theater interdiction by again reducing AR based on number of enemy FTR and TAC vrs Friendly FTR strength (adjustments to the algorithm for distance weather and time of year (Summer has LOTS more daylight in this theater) Again armor and mechanized units more would loose more.

AP should not be reduced below 1 unless perhaps it was already 1 due to supply.

The affect of strategic bombing on transportation infrastructure could be modeled by permitting an attack on a rail hex and with the possibility of damaging it. This should be pretty low probability based on strength and level of the bomber and subject to interception. (perhaps 10% for a nearly full strength level 1 Bomber and never better than perhaps 30- 40% for high level (level 5) bombers , Enough missions and the infrastructure would be damaged, but would automatically repair as per the normal rules. This should not require any UI or game play modifications it would be 'assumed' it is a transportaton attack if on a non city hex. To keep it simple transportation attacks would not be made on cities or normal strategic bombardment would have a chance of transport hit (even lower than on a regular rail hex). (alternateively with a bit more modification the 'type' of attack could be specified on a city, but we do want to pereserve simplicity so...)

If the game allows a few partisans the chance to damage a rail hex why not let STR bombers have a shot. It was done with pretty significant effect prior to DDay invasions.

German formations essentially were reduced to movement at night by allied airpower late in from mid 1944 onwards. They experienced drastically reduced manouver capability which should be modeled if possible.

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RE: Using Tac Air for Interdiction - 1/15/2012 5:29:43 AM   
freeboy

 

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its not the issue , in regard to damaging rails.. its that we are abstracting so much through the rails.. so essentially if you closs a rail, the whole week no supplies go through it.. maybe if we introduced a interdicted hex symble.. reduces movement.. but supplies are the hidden cost.. out of supplies or low on supplies aginst a supplied oponent , like in reality, your guys die.. so this is a tough one, allied bombing even in Normandy did not stop supplies... far from it
Back to this game, what degree do we watn to complicate it?
interdictioon... anti air support.. morters short medium and long range aertilery, or counter attacking breakthroughs.. or my favorite, the anti artillery counter battery mission.. I hope you see my point, it really is  about scale.. and in Fury in the microcosm, with tripple the size map we can reduce the turns to two days, add lots of fun color coded stuff, but for this game I don't see it helping game flow.
Currently my air either is or is not dominant.. to the degree its dominant I blast through dug in forces or  punish strong concentrations.. this to me is a good use of tactical air pwer.. mybe if we stopped thinking fighter and bomber and rather groups.. anti ground forces groups .. and dedicated anti air units.. not only does it play as is, its accurate, again to the degree we are looking for. funtion given the scale...
Did not mean to ramble sorry

< Message edited by freeboy -- 1/15/2012 10:15:34 PM >

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RE: Using Tac Air for Interdiction - 1/15/2012 8:10:04 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

From freeboy
not only does it play as is, its accurate, again to the degree we are looking for. funtion given the scale...


I can only hope you are not serious about the above and are just refering to the OP versus thinking that the game is fine.

Maybe after the patch it will be accurate, but the way the game is now it is anything but accurate. As Germany, I puppeted England, had mutiple Pz corps with over 50+ strenght, never was effected by any supply/weather/other constraints that I could tell, could strageticly move entire corps from the coast of France to deep into Russia (in a week) and then have them attack the next turn, plus a whole lot more. And do not even get me started about the entire naval system. Also, scale has NOTHING to do with the items I mention, so for you to claim that the game is accurate given the scale is, dare I say it, not accuarte

Even in a supposed 'simple' version of WWII, there should be at least some attempt towards historical abilities and constraints.

I have completely stopped playing the game at this point due to the absurdities that currently exist. I have great hopes that the patch will at least have some attempt to bring the game back from the fantasy land it currently lives in. Until then, you and I will have to disagree about what accuracy means as your defination and mine are worlds apart.

(in reply to freeboy)
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RE: Using Tac Air for Interdiction - 1/15/2012 9:52:16 PM   
Razz1


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I've never seen you post anything positive in any forum.

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RE: Using Tac Air for Interdiction - 1/15/2012 10:15:46 PM   
freeboy

 

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yes.. the game needs to grow .. but this is a fun game... LOTS of replaybility.. not a word but.. yes.. If you want accurate.. its never going there

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RE: Using Tac Air for Interdiction - 1/15/2012 10:37:46 PM   
Razz1


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No game is 100% accurate. Not even WITP or WITE or the HOI series.

There is always something we can complain about. :)

The most inaccurate thing in every game is the Artificial Intelligence.


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RE: Using Tac Air for Interdiction - 1/16/2012 4:37:29 AM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Razz

I've never seen you post anything positive in any forum.


And I have seldom seen you accept any critisizm about the game either, so I guess we are even on that score

To be blunt, I am NOT looking for WitE/HoI type details. I am looking for PLAUSABLE historical constraints and REASONABLE outcomes from my actions as a player. These have NOTHING to do with the amout of detail/scale/etc. of a game. So until the game has these added in some way, I am expressing my opnion as to why I no longer want to play the game. Obviously you feel differently.

Also, unless you have read EVERY post in EVERY forum I have posted in, I suggest that you stop using absoulutes like never as I would be happy to point out how wrong your statement above is. I have posted many positive things (even about ToF if you would care to look) in many different forums. To claim that I have not just shows how you seem to ignore facts versus accepting that others may have a different opnion that is just as valid as yours.

(in reply to Razz1)
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RE: Using Tac Air for Interdiction - 1/16/2012 8:40:01 AM   
slaytanic

 

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quote:

There may be a simple solution which gives the 'feel' of air superiority. I see a couple of options:
1. FTR attacks on units hitting (reducing) enemy AP instead of actually doing damage Armor and Mechanized would be more vulnerable to this (AP for the following turn of course)
2. Formula which works behind the scenes and emulates theater interdiction by again reducing AR based on number of enemy FTR and TAC vrs Friendly FTR strength (adjustments to the algorithm for distance weather and time of year (Summer has LOTS more daylight in this theater) Again armor and mechanized units more would loose more.


From a game point of view I like your second point. Anything that requires player's attention might become a chore and players mostly like to fight, not bomb empty hexes. Also, AI has to be taken into account. Some specific formula for each unit, if not too demanding for the system, might be used. Reducing by max 50% AP in case of total superiority might be a great addition. Also reducing strategy rail movement by some general formula

(in reply to JLPOWELL)
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RE: Using Tac Air for Interdiction - 1/16/2012 11:09:39 AM   
slaytanic

 

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Question to doomtrader&co - is the following event possible:
1. count all axis air unit strength
2. count all allied unit strength
3. if the ratio between the 2 is huge, fire interdiction event where APs for one side is less by X% (mobile units only). And SMP smaller for X%?

The  solution is not perfect but might be the only one given the current possibilities.
can't wait for that event editor!

(in reply to slaytanic)
Post #: 13
RE: Using Tac Air for Interdiction - 1/16/2012 5:49:45 PM   
freeboy

 

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we are getting back to the multiple choices for airr counters.. which adds complexity...
can we allow air units to interdict and do dedicated anti shipping / ground in the same turn?
I think the same about invasions.. want to stop selion from being tooo easy.. all transports landing anywhere, and all amphib assualts must pass a check for air supperiority.. anything but a total air supperiority and they roll for losses.. kind of like the ground movement discussion..
BUT do we really want to add layers on this games mechanics?
Chess works.. multi demension transwarp 3d etc chess does not really get much lay
lol

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Post #: 14
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