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Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots

 
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Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/2/2011 2:33:58 PM   
jeffs


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I was just doing my first turn as the allies and .....
Is it true there is no pool what so ever for Dutch pilots?
zero, zippo, nada???

At least according to the database I looked at ...There was nothing (air groups had their original pilots
and there were 3 pilots in reserve....

But there were no replacement pools (not only were there no trainees now (the Chinese and the Russians start at zero)....But I did not even see anything showing future replacements?

Is this a mistake? Or is this yet another sick torture of scenario 2 perpetrated upon the honor of the AFB???

_____________________________

To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq
Post #: 1
RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/2/2011 2:58:01 PM   
GreyJoy


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Noticed the same too... and always wondered why it's designed like that

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RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/2/2011 3:29:15 PM   
Sredni

 

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It never really mattered before because we could just pull untrained pilots. Pilots starting at like less then 10xp and skill heh.

Recent beta changes though are stopping this, I guess it wasn't meant to happen. The dutch airforce is meant to be used up and run out I think. Curse you historical accuracy

(in reply to jeffs)
Post #: 3
RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/2/2011 3:35:48 PM   
HansBolter


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I'm pretty sure it's the same in Ironman.

In order to flesh out some of the squadrons deficient in pilots you have to move pilots out of other squadrons with a surplus.


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Hans


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RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/2/2011 4:00:55 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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It sounds fine - where would the replacement pilots come from ?

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RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/2/2011 4:08:25 PM   
Sredni

 

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Whenever I was pulling the sub 10 xp/skill type pilots before I always imagined some officer walking out into the street and yanking some poor random native aside and saying "Oy, welcome to the dutch airforce!" heh

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Post #: 6
RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/2/2011 6:14:39 PM   
crsutton


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Perhaps there has been some changes but I can't ever recall a shortage of dutch pilots in my scen #2 game. The were generally very average or worse but I can't recall not having enough. I have a few Australian squadrons that are Dutch (1944) and there are plenty of pilots in the pools- many veterans of the first few months.

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RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/2/2011 6:30:35 PM   
Gunner98

 

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I ran into this problem in Scen 2 - if you hold onto Timor and/or Ambon and can get the bulk of your Dutch AF stationed there, pilots become a problem. Mind you airframes are also a problem and by mid/late 42 I was disbanding Sqns to cobble together enough workable airframes and pilots to make a show of it. You can upgrade some of the Sqns to P40/B-25/DB-7 but I found it hard to keep more than one decent sized Sqn of each in the air.

I think it probably reflects real limitations and forced me to balance forces between India, Timor/Ambon and East Oz.

B

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 8
RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/2/2011 6:56:24 PM   
Dutch_slith


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Almost all of the restricted squadrons do have their original pilots (all are named pilots). All RL Reinforcements for these squadrons are in the game too.

The flying schools of the MLKNIL and MLD were evacuated to Australia and later to the US. All pilots from these schools that were transfered to PTO are in the game.

Since all pilots are in the game (named), the pool is empty...

(in reply to jeffs)
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RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/2/2011 9:05:30 PM   
JeffroK


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Its a pity the Dutch underground couldnt smuggle potential pilots out for use in the DEI, as well as keep up 3 (more?) Sqns in the RAF

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RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/2/2011 11:12:07 PM   
jcjordan

 

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I would think that due to the changes in the betas on how pilot pools are done vs trying to draw a pilot into a unit that needs one that a small replacement pool should be started since the dutch do have some RAAF/RAF units that come in late war as there were dutch pilots escaping in Europe & being trained but I'm sure some would have been transfered to the Pacific if needed but granted that most units were filled from pilots that escaped the DEI.

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 11
RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/3/2011 7:25:04 AM   
jeffs


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Perhaps it is HISTORICALLY accurate to have no ability to get new pilots...

But we are talking scenario 2!!! Where historical accuracy means nothing to the evil empire

Come on...Throw a dog a bone...Let me get some crap pilots.......

_____________________________

To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq

(in reply to jcjordan)
Post #: 12
RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/3/2011 4:13:33 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Its a pity the Dutch underground couldnt smuggle potential pilots out for use in the DEI, as well as keep up 3 (more?) Sqns in the RAF


Well, Dutch pilots were white-not natives. Every white person of Dutch origin was either dead or in a Japanese prison camp. There were no pilots to smuggle out. I don't know but somehow doubt that supplying Dutch pilots to the Pacific was considered much of a priority to the Dutch resistance or the Allies. Perhaps after the liberation of Holland but I just don't know the history there.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 12/3/2011 4:15:04 PM >


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RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/3/2011 7:55:03 PM   
CV 2

 

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Well one thing I am finding in scen 2 (this is my first time playing it) is that all the Jap air HQs have to be manually set (in the TO&E) their torp loads, and they only apparently reload if replacements are on for the unit.

(in reply to crsutton)
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RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/3/2011 9:47:22 PM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Its a pity the Dutch underground couldnt smuggle potential pilots out for use in the DEI, as well as keep up 3 (more?) Sqns in the RAF


Well, Dutch pilots were white-not natives. Every white person of Dutch origin was either dead or in a Japanese prison camp. There were no pilots to smuggle out. I don't know but somehow doubt that supplying Dutch pilots to the Pacific was considered much of a priority to the Dutch resistance or the Allies. Perhaps after the liberation of Holland but I just don't know the history there.

I meant out of Europe but didnt say-so.

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Post #: 15
RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/4/2011 1:27:16 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Its a pity the Dutch underground couldnt smuggle potential pilots out for use in the DEI, as well as keep up 3 (more?) Sqns in the RAF


Well, Dutch pilots were white-not natives. Every white person of Dutch origin was either dead or in a Japanese prison camp. There were no pilots to smuggle out. I don't know but somehow doubt that supplying Dutch pilots to the Pacific was considered much of a priority to the Dutch resistance or the Allies. Perhaps after the liberation of Holland but I just don't know the history there.

I meant out of Europe but didnt say-so.


Actually, you got me thinking. I opened my game and there are no Dutch pilot pools or replacements in 4/44. But of course, Holland was not liberated until after that date. I know that Commonwealth pilots are not yet in the pools but do start to show up later. I wonder if this this the same with Dutch pilots? Almost has to be, but I don't know.

_____________________________

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Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 16
RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/5/2011 11:20:24 PM   
jcjordan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Its a pity the Dutch underground couldnt smuggle potential pilots out for use in the DEI, as well as keep up 3 (more?) Sqns in the RAF


Well, Dutch pilots were white-not natives. Every white person of Dutch origin was either dead or in a Japanese prison camp. There were no pilots to smuggle out. I don't know but somehow doubt that supplying Dutch pilots to the Pacific was considered much of a priority to the Dutch resistance or the Allies. Perhaps after the liberation of Holland but I just don't know the history there.

I meant out of Europe but didnt say-so.


Actually, you got me thinking. I opened my game and there are no Dutch pilot pools or replacements in 4/44. But of course, Holland was not liberated until after that date. I know that Commonwealth pilots are not yet in the pools but do start to show up later. I wonder if this this the same with Dutch pilots? Almost has to be, but I don't know.


Other than those in the pilot db or in units at start, there are no Dutch pilots added for the whole game in any scenario so if you have massive pilot losses in the DEI, you won't have enough pilots to fill out the late war RAF/RAAF dutch units.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 17
RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/13/2011 4:37:04 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

It never really mattered before because we could just pull untrained pilots. Pilots starting at like less then 10xp and skill heh.

Recent beta changes though are stopping this, I guess it wasn't meant to happen. The dutch airforce is meant to be used up and run out I think. Curse you historical accuracy


No, the reason why it wasn't a problem in the past was because there was something, IIRC, along the lines of 170 Dutch pilots in General Reserve.

I don't play with the beta but i would be very surprised that somewhere along the way those 170 pilots were removed. Has the OP actually looked at whether there are any Dutch pilots in General Reserve, or perhaps TRACOM?

In any case, the real problem is lack of replacement Dutch airframes for there is not a 1:1 airframe:pilot loss ratio.

Alfred

(in reply to Sredni)
Post #: 18
RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/13/2011 6:26:17 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sredni

It never really mattered before because we could just pull untrained pilots. Pilots starting at like less then 10xp and skill heh.

Recent beta changes though are stopping this, I guess it wasn't meant to happen. The dutch airforce is meant to be used up and run out I think. Curse you historical accuracy


No, the reason why it wasn't a problem in the past was because there was something, IIRC, along the lines of 170 Dutch pilots in General Reserve.

I don't play with the beta but i would be very surprised that somewhere along the way those 170 pilots were removed. Has the OP actually looked at whether there are any Dutch pilots in General Reserve, or perhaps TRACOM?

In any case, the real problem is lack of replacement Dutch airframes for there is not a 1:1 airframe:pilot loss ratio.

Alfred


Well not exactly because there are three or four Dutch RAAF squadrons that do eventually upgrade to better planes. The fighters are stuck with the P40 E but eventually get to take the Australian Mustang. Not til 45 though. There is a unit of transports. (Lodestars) that never get any replacements. These pilots can be retrained to help out a bit. So you will need to save some pilots.


Just checked and the three RAAF squadrons are #120 P40s that get the boomerang (ugh!) in 9/44 and the D mustang in 7/45. #18 which can use the Dutch DB7 and Mitchell until they are used up and then convert to the Australian Mitchell 2 and 3. But there is a very limited supply of Australian Mitchells. And #321 which gets the Dutch or British PBYs and there are plenty of those.

In addition, for some reason you get the return of a lot of the original Dutch squadrons in Aden in early 44. These squadrons are practically useless as they can never convert to aircraft of any use. But you can disband them and put the pilots in your pools. In 5/44, I have just over 200 well trained Dutch pilots in my pools. The problem really is the lack of airframes. I found it best not to use the Dutch P40E, DB7 or Mitchell in combat over the DEI as they are doomed to get shot up fast and don't help much but save them for later combat over Australia where they will be a lot more useful. However, this may not matter as they will always be limited in aircraft type and numbers.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 12/13/2011 6:52:44 PM >


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I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

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(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 19
RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/13/2011 6:45:57 PM   
Alfred

 

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That is only a problem if the pilot loss ratio is close to 1:1. For the Dutch, you should be looking at achieving a pilot to airframe loss ratio of 1:3. When the original 170 pilots in the pool are added to those pilots in the initial on map squadrons, lack of airframes, even taking into account the limited Australian production which is also needed for the pure RAAF squadrons, is the real limiting factor.

Alfred

(in reply to crsutton)
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RE: Scenario 2 and Dutch Pilots - 12/13/2011 6:54:59 PM   
Sredni

 

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I kinda wish we could spend PP to transfer airframes between nationalities . It's not like the p-40's you have left over in 44+ serve much purpose, send em to the dutch! heh

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 21
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