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Kowloon Brigade - 10/17/2011 9:45:32 AM   
elcid

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Lakewood Washington
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For reasons unclear an Allied unit starts the game in Hong Kong.
Classed as a standard Indian Army Brigade, with a Major General
in command (vice a bragidier) - it is incorrect in almost every detail
except its name.

It appears the unit did not form until January 1942, that its heavy
weapons were primarily machine guns from former British forces,
that it was a Chinese unit initially about 400 strong, and that it
changes names (and organization) in December 1943 (vice June 1943)
to a different name than in the database.

The raw data appears to be as follows:

Hong Kong Kowloon formed in January 1942 the HK-Kowloon brigade (Ť`‹ă‘ĺ‘ŕ) was established from the Guangdong People's anti-Japanese Guerilla force.[32] In February 1942 with local residents Cai Guo-liang (äďš —Ŕ) as commander and Chen Da-ming (’Â’B–ľ) as political commissar, they were armed with 30 machine guns and several hundred rifles left by defeated British forces.[8] They numbered about 400 between 1942 and 1945 and operated in Sai Kung.[8] Additionally, the guerillas were noteworthy in rescuing prisoners-of-war, notably Sir Lindsay, Sir Douglas Clague, Professor Gordan King, and David Bosanquet.[2] In December 1943 the Guangdong force reformed the East river guerillas, absorbing the HK-Kowloon brigade into the larger unit.[32]

In addition, a correctly fitted out battalion is set not to appear. These units are 6337 for the Kowloon Brigade, 6338 for the 2nd Royal Scots Battalion. Finally the Hong Kong Base force points at an incompatable formation - although it appears to correct in its organization - some of its elements seem likely to disappear because of that pointing. That unit is 6335.

FYI

< Message edited by elcid -- 10/17/2011 9:51:45 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Kowloon Brigade - 10/17/2011 9:59:01 AM   
elcid

 

Posts: 226
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Lakewood Washington
Status: offline
It also appears the Kong Kong Volunteers were omitted: here is their data.
FYI I have traveled to Hong Kong since 1968, briefly lived in Wanchai, and was married there
in 1991. People in Hong Kong are very proud of The Volunteers.

The volunteers, renamed the "Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps" (HKVDC), met their severest test in the bitter fighting that took place in the crucial weeks before the fall of Hong Kong on Christmas Day 1941. On 8 December 1941, HKVDC, deployed a total fighting strength of 2200 all ranks in 7 infantry companies, 5 artillery batteries, 5 machine gun companies equipped with Vickers machine gun and an armoured car platoon.

While only seeing light action in the New Territories at the beginning of the Japanese attack, the Volunteers were heavily engaged on Hong Kong Island, especially during the key battles of Wong Nai Chung Gap and Stanley. Casualties among 3 Coy at the former, and 1 Bty at the latter, were extremely heavy. 1 and 2 (Scottish) companies also suffered heavy losses, as did 5 Bty.

Out of the mobilised strength of 2200, 289 were listed either as missing or killed, and many others became prisoners of war. Some, however, made their way into China where the British Army Aid Group was formed to assist the Chinese Government in the struggle against the Japanese. A number of these men later made way to Burma where they joined the famed Chindits under General Orde Wingate. The services of the defence corps were later recognised by the award of 19 decorations and 18 mentioned in despatch for gallantry and good service. As a recognition of The Hong Kong Volunteer Defence Corps defence of Hong Kong during 1941, the Corps was awarded the battle honour "Hong Kong".


(in reply to elcid)
Post #: 2
RE: Kowloon Brigade - 10/17/2011 3:24:40 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1826
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: elcid

For reasons unclear an Allied unit starts the game in Hong Kong.
Classed as a standard Indian Army Brigade, with a Major General
in command (vice a bragidier) - it is incorrect in almost every detail
except its name.

It appears the unit did not form until January 1942, that its heavy
weapons were primarily machine guns from former British forces,
that it was a Chinese unit initially about 400 strong, and that it
changes names (and organization) in December 1943 (vice June 1943)
to a different name than in the database.

The raw data appears to be as follows:

Hong Kong Kowloon formed in January 1942 the HK-Kowloon brigade (Ť`‹ă‘ĺ‘ŕ) was established from the Guangdong People's anti-Japanese Guerilla force.[32] In February 1942 with local residents Cai Guo-liang (äďš —Ŕ) as commander and Chen Da-ming (’Â’B–ľ) as political commissar, they were armed with 30 machine guns and several hundred rifles left by defeated British forces.[8] They numbered about 400 between 1942 and 1945 and operated in Sai Kung.[8] Additionally, the guerillas were noteworthy in rescuing prisoners-of-war, notably Sir Lindsay, Sir Douglas Clague, Professor Gordan King, and David Bosanquet.[2] In December 1943 the Guangdong force reformed the East river guerillas, absorbing the HK-Kowloon brigade into the larger unit.[32]

In addition, a correctly fitted out battalion is set not to appear. These units are 6337 for the Kowloon Brigade, 6338 for the 2nd Royal Scots Battalion. Finally the Hong Kong Base force points at an incompatable formation - although it appears to correct in its organization - some of its elements seem likely to disappear because of that pointing. That unit is 6335.

FYI


British Empire Forces were Andy Mac's busines, but:

Kowloon Brigade = Mainland Brigade = East Brigade

Three names for the same British brigade under the command of Brigadier Cedric Wallis.

(in reply to elcid)
Post #: 3
RE: Kowloon Brigade - 10/17/2011 4:47:23 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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From: Alexandria, Scotland
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This was calibrated to give historic results Bns wasnt working so I brigaded them



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Post #: 4
RE: Kowloon Brigade - 10/17/2011 4:50:33 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 14464
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline
ps Garrion was 6 Bns plus fortress troops

1 Brit
1 MG
2 Canadian
2 Indian

Was the garrison what we have is a fair approximation of the strength.

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Post #: 5
RE: Kowloon Brigade - 10/17/2011 4:56:11 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 14464
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline
Hang on just re read cids note - I am confused as to exactly what the criticism is thats beingt levelled ??

There were 2 Bdes the Mainland and Island (or Kowloon and HK Bdes)

One had 1 Brit and 2 Indian Bns plus attached forces
The other had 1 MG Bn and 2 Canadian Bns

As there was a shortage of Bde level weapons I only represented them as 1 Bde and 3 Bns no issue that I can see

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Post #: 6
RE: Kowloon Brigade - 10/17/2011 8:09:54 PM   
US87891

 

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Joined: 1/2/2011
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The original poster is confused. He is confusing a subsequent guerilla organization with a similar name, gotten from Wikipedia, with troops present in Hong Kong on opening day (I do like this term). 'Kowloon' brigade, under BG Charles Vallis, may have had an ad hoc name, but was nevertheless comprised of two IA Bns (5/17 Rajput and 2/14 Punjab, iirc), and a Bn of the 2d Royal Scots. Ration returns for these units on 12.01.41 show 70:2540.

I have had the opportunity to vet Mr Kereguelen's OOBs and find that his opening day (what a wonderful term) offerings are breathtakingly accurate.

Matt

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 7
RE: Kowloon Brigade - 10/17/2011 9:54:14 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10373
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From: Near Portland, OR
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If Wikipedia is going to be invoked, you might as well site the correct page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Garrison

Bill


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WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to US87891)
Post #: 8
RE: Kowloon Brigade - 10/18/2011 12:09:06 AM   
YankeeAirRat


Posts: 633
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
Or one could do better research then using Wikipedia and questionable sources from the Internet. Such as using these things with paper and using ink to print words on them in a logical format and then it is all bound together with glue to make something called a book.

_____________________________

Take my word for it. You never want to be involved in an “International Incident”.

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Post #: 9
RE: Kowloon Brigade - 10/18/2011 12:11:40 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10373
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
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Yes, though it is more difficult to post a book to a forum.

Bill




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WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to YankeeAirRat)
Post #: 10
RE: Kowloon Brigade - 10/18/2011 12:30:49 AM   
YankeeAirRat


Posts: 633
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
True, but one could cite from a book this way:

In "From A to Z" by Dr. T M. Fingers, published in 20XX, on page 67 writes the following:
quote:

"...that for Z to really work as the end of the alphabet we need to believe that we need Z words. While I propose that we we really need more letters past Z...Just look at other...blah, blah, blah"


Then maybe include a link to Amazon or Google books.

_____________________________

Take my word for it. You never want to be involved in an “International Incident”.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 11
RE: Kowloon Brigade - 10/18/2011 12:57:39 AM   
Pascal_slith


Posts: 1643
Joined: 8/20/2003
From: in New England now
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat

True, but one could cite from a book this way:

In "From A to Z" by Dr. T M. Fingers, published in 20XX, on page 67 writes the following:
quote:

"...that for Z to really work as the end of the alphabet we need to believe that we need Z words. While I propose that we we really need more letters past Z...Just look at other...blah, blah, blah"


Then maybe include a link to Amazon or Google books.


Oh my... A link to the Internet...

_____________________________

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(


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Post #: 12
RE: Kowloon Brigade - 10/18/2011 1:23:50 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6306
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: US87891

The original poster is confused. He is confusing a subsequent guerilla organization with a similar name, gotten from Wikipedia, with troops present in Hong Kong on opening day (I do like this term). 'Kowloon' brigade, under BG Charles Vallis, may have had an ad hoc name, but was nevertheless comprised of two IA Bns (5/17 Rajput and 2/14 Punjab, iirc), and a Bn of the 2d Royal Scots. Ration returns for these units on 12.01.41 show 70:2540.

I have had the opportunity to vet Mr Kereguelen's OOBs and find that his opening day (what a wonderful term) offerings are breathtakingly accurate.

Matt

Then check out Australia, units all over the place.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to US87891)
Post #: 13
RE: Kowloon Brigade - 10/18/2011 1:29:40 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6306
Joined: 1/26/2005
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Kowloon bde was probably more accurately the "Mainland" Bde, but if anyone has Joslens book around you might find different?
The Canadian view of the debacle
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/Canada/CA/SixYears/SixYears-14.html

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

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Post #: 14
RE: Kowloon Brigade - 10/18/2011 10:00:37 AM   
JeffroK


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Joined: 1/26/2005
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According to Orders of Battle Second World War 1939-45 by Lt Col H F Joslen,

Kowloon Infantry Brigade was formed in November 1941 primarily for the defense of the mainland.

Commander from 16/11/41 was Brig C Wallis

Units were
2 Royal Scots
5/7 Rajput
2/14 Punjab



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Post #: 15
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