Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Japanese R&D

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Tech Support >> Japanese R&D Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Japanese R&D - 9/17/2011 10:38:52 PM   
darbycmcd

 

Posts: 381
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline
Sorry Michael, with the to and fro of the patch and discussions happening in a couple different places, I am a bit confused about what the actual definative formula is for generating R&D points for Japanese ac. my assumption was that when a factory is completely repaired, it generates points much like it would generate planes, basically the number of devices is expected production per month. now there is some talk that there is actually a 1-3 point per day production, size notwithstanding.... could you outline it definately in one place. thanks!
Post #: 1
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/17/2011 11:31:17 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2559
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

Excellent idea to create a thread just for R&D

Here is what I consider to be the best treatment from Michael on the subject, as quoted from the patch thread:

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

In simple terms
(a) A factory will produce a random R&D between 0 and the number of devices in the factory ie 1 device = 0, 2 devices = 0,1, 3 devices =0,1,2, 4 devices = 0,1,2,3, 10 devices = 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 etc.
(b) The random R&D is then divided by 10. Any random R&D of less than 10 will be '0', otherwise it will be the ten's component of the random R&D.
(c) If there are no damaged devices in factory (this is a given as there must be NO damaged ones present), add '1' to the number from (b).
(d) If the number from (c) exceeds 3, it is capped at '3'.

The number from (d) is added to the a/c development counter - this will be a number from 1 to 3 inclusive.
Once the counter exceeds 100, it moves the available date sooner by a month and resets the development counter.


(in reply to darbycmcd)
Post #: 2
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/17/2011 11:36:09 PM   
darbycmcd

 

Posts: 381
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline
ah, but this is very fast! it means that every factory (fully repaired) will produce at least 1 point PER DAY. so 10 size 1 factories will give 300 points a month.... is that really the intent?

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 3
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/17/2011 11:46:00 PM   
darbycmcd

 

Posts: 381
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline
For example Nymdalar reports this from his game (post 61 http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2825013&mpage=3)

So if my understanding is correct this is giving me the following points toward acceleration
7(0) = 1
55(0) = 3
3(0) = 1
1(0) = 1

for a total of 6 points/day. Which means that I will get an acceleration every 16-17 days which matches up with what is accutually occuring in my game.


and he could actually be more efficient to use 3 size 1 factories rather than the 55. so imagine that just 6 size 1 factories leads to an acceleration every 2 weeks. is that the idea? given the number of R&D factories the japanese has, this seems to be a problem

< Message edited by darbymcd -- 9/17/2011 11:49:36 PM >

(in reply to darbycmcd)
Post #: 4
RE: Japanese R&D - revised - 9/18/2011 1:27:50 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13089
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
Here is the revised sequence that was valid before beta p8, and will be again with beta q4. The missing step from earlier postings in in BOLD.

quote:

In simple terms
(a.1) Daily number of initial devices from factory is as with a/c production [ (active devices + random(30))/30]. If this number is 0, or there are any damaged devices present, then no R&D will result this turn from this factory. [This agrees with the manual ]
(a.2) A factory will then produce a random R&D between 1 and the number of devices from step (a.1) ie 1 device = 1, 2 devices = 1,2, 3 devices =1,2,3, 4 devices = 1,2,3,4 10 devices = 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 etc.
(b) The random R&D is then divided by 10. Any random R&D of less than 10 will be '0', otherwise it will be the ten's component of the random R&D.
(c) If there are no damaged devices in factory (this is a given as there must be NO damaged ones present), add '1' to the number from (b).
(d) If the number from (c) exceeds 3, it is capped at '3'.

The number from (d) is added to the a/c development counter - this will be a number from 1 to 3 inclusive.
Once the counter exceeds 100, it moves the available date sooner by a month and resets the development counter.


It is possible to get '0' R&D now, as the step (a.1) was being bypassed post-p8 due to a bug introduced in p8.

Thank you to those who kept asking me to check the code.
The misplaced '{}' that caused this was very difficult to pick up. I was looking at it all week and just couldn't see it in the current code.

Based on the proper formula, to get a possible additional +1 from (b), it would require you to have a daily production of at least 10+.
Less than 10 would just give you '1' R&D daily from step (c).


< Message edited by michaelm -- 9/18/2011 2:41:53 AM >


_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to darbycmcd)
Post #: 5
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 1:32:12 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13089
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd

For example Nymdalar reports this from his game (post 61 http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2825013&mpage=3)

So if my understanding is correct this is giving me the following points toward acceleration
7(0) = 1
55(0) = 3
3(0) = 1
1(0) = 1

for a total of 6 points/day. Which means that I will get an acceleration every 16-17 days which matches up with what is accutually occuring in my game.


and he could actually be more efficient to use 3 size 1 factories rather than the 55. so imagine that just 6 size 1 factories leads to an acceleration every 2 weeks. is that the idea? given the number of R&D factories the japanese has, this seems to be a problem


See earlier post.

The R&D numbers are not absolutes, there is randomness to consider. Even under the buggy version, the 55(0) could have produced 1,2 or 3 points a day.

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to darbycmcd)
Post #: 6
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 2:57:16 AM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3058
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline
So rather than 6/day as I projected, it would be a range of 4-6 daily. The 6 points would be the most likely outcome as the factory is 30+ correct? Or is a 1,2, or 3 just as likely?

Also Micheal you stated earlier that 30(0) was the optimal R&D factory size as that would almost always get you three points. Is that still the case os is a 1(0) size better? Inquiring minds want to know

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 7
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 3:41:21 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13089
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

So rather than 6/day as I projected, it would be a range of 4-6 daily. The 6 points would be the most likely outcome as the factory is 30+ correct? Or is a 1,2, or 3 just as likely?

Also Micheal you stated earlier that 30(0) was the optimal R&D factory size as that would almost always get you three points. Is that still the case os is a 1(0) size better? Inquiring minds want to know


Becareful, I think you are still thinking in terms of the buggy code which was missing a vital step.

With the correct code, a 30(0) will give you a minimum of 1 R&D per day and a potential 2 every so often.
A 1(0) might give you 1 R&D per MONTH.

See post #5 above for the correct formula

< Message edited by michaelm -- 9/18/2011 3:42:46 AM >


_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 8
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 4:10:31 AM   
darbycmcd

 

Posts: 381
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline
But is it also that step c ensures 1 point per day no matter the number of devices, as long as they are all repaired? that is the problem. i think it is as conceptualized that a 55 factory can produce 1-3 per day (ie around 55 / month) but a 1 factory producing 1 per day is a problem i think..... Michael do you have some insght into the design intent? step c ensures that no matter the size every factory functions at a minimum as a 30(0) factory. that is too much i think.

so i will take for example a game i am playing as the japanese in may 42. i have 15 factories researching the franka (due 1/44). now 6 of them have had some repair, if i had been smart i would have ensured that all the factories were just 1(0) so they would be giving me points now. so 6 factories {1(0)} would give me 180 points per month!!! i switch them up to frank r and i am getting that plane at the end of 43 using just 6 factories. given that japan has something in excess of 30 r&d factories to start, this is a lot of plane acceleration. is that the intent? i can accerlerate probably 5 plane lines that way to get planes from mid 45 by the end of 43 if this is the way it is.....

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 9
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 4:20:35 AM   
kmitahj

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline
Factory of size 1(0) won't produce 1 r/d pt a day because it will reach step (c) only twice per month (on average). Most of the time it will fail in step (a1) because ((1+random(30)) div 30) is zero unless random(30) gives 29 or 30.

(in reply to darbycmcd)
Post #: 10
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 4:27:05 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13089
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd

But is it also that step c ensures 1 point per day no matter the number of devices, as long as they are all repaired? that is the problem. i think it is as conceptualized that a 55 factory can produce 1-3 per day (ie around 55 / month) but a 1 factory producing 1 per day is a problem i think..... Michael do you have some insght into the design intent? step c ensures that no matter the size every factory functions at a minimum as a 30(0) factory. that is too much i think.

so i will take for example a game i am playing as the japanese in may 42. i have 15 factories researching the franka (due 1/44). now 6 of them have had some repair, if i had been smart i would have ensured that all the factories were just 1(0) so they would be giving me points now. so 6 factories {1(0)} would give me 180 points per month!!! i switch them up to frank r and i am getting that plane at the end of 43 using just 6 factories. given that japan has something in excess of 30 r&d factories to start, this is a lot of plane acceleration. is that the intent? i can accerlerate probably 5 plane lines that way to get planes from mid 45 by the end of 43 if this is the way it is.....

Refer to post #5 above for the steps to get potential daily R&D points.
The very first step was NOT being done in the betas p8 to q3.

Will be fixed in q4 to come out later today.

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to darbycmcd)
Post #: 11
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 4:51:10 AM   
darbycmcd

 

Posts: 381
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline
ok, i guess i am just unclear. to me it seems that step b could result in 0 points... fine. but then step c would add 1 no matter the size, kmataji suggests it is a test but it seems to me it is just a test for all repaired or not. so just to be clear, does step c mean that every completely repaired factory produces at least 1 point per day?

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 12
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 5:09:14 AM   
kmitahj

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline
Hi,

quote:

If this number is 0, or there are any damaged devices present, then no R&D will result this turn from this factory


It is quote from Michael post #5. Take a look again on step (a1) written in bold there. This is a test I was referring to. If it fails (the number is zero) there no step (b) nor (c) so no r/d points produced. As far as I understood Michael this step (a1) is missing in few last betas but it will be reimplemented soon. Missing of this step is likely whats explain odd (too fast) research acceleration reported by Numdydar. Or at least so I hope...

(in reply to darbycmcd)
Post #: 13
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 6:11:26 AM   
darbycmcd

 

Posts: 381
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline
so i am super confused, because yes that is a quote from post 5, but in the same post he says
Less than 10 would just give you '1' R&D daily from step (c).
which suggests that a zero value in step b would still allow a +1 value from step c
which is what i am talking about, should a 1 factory give you 1 point per day as opposed to an ac production factory which would give you 1 aircraft per month.

< Message edited by darbymcd -- 9/18/2011 6:12:57 AM >

(in reply to kmitahj)
Post #: 14
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 6:58:53 AM   
darbycmcd

 

Posts: 381
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline
so it seems that basically research mirrors production, ok that is as i thought, but...

Michael, can you confirm the 1 point daily production for any size, repaired factory? is that what you meant about

Less than 10 would just give you '1' R&D daily from step (c).

this i think is important.

(in reply to darbycmcd)
Post #: 15
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 7:19:33 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13089
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd

so it seems that basically research mirrors production, ok that is as i thought, but...

Michael, can you confirm the 1 point daily production for any size, repaired factory? is that what you meant about

Less than 10 would just give you '1' R&D daily from step (c).

this i think is important.


ONLY if the production check (a1) produced at least '1' a/c.

If the production check returns '0' or any damaged devices, then there is no R&D that turn regardless of the factory size.

If the production check returns '1' or more, then the other checks follow on, and you end up with a minimum of '1' R&D regardless of factory size.

Note that this is how R&D use to work before p8

< Message edited by michaelm -- 9/18/2011 7:22:09 AM >


_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to darbycmcd)
Post #: 16
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 9:33:50 AM   
FeurerKrieg


Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline
Okay, I think it is clearer now.
A size 30(0) factory ensures a minimum of 1 R&D point per day, with some chance of 2 R&D points. (And maybe 3 as well? I'm not so sure on that part based on the comment where michaelm said you would need 570(0) to get 3.)

Thanks guys!

_____________________________


Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 17
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 11:53:33 AM   
bk19@mweb.co.za

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 7/26/2011
Status: offline
Now that we all have got to understand the R&D mechanisms I note that there is still a subtle (or apparently so) variance between factories assigned to normal production and factories assigned to R&D.

In particular, when an existing manufacturing factory space is expanded say from 30 working devices to 60 devices (intending to double capacity) these factories will continue generating output whilst the factory floor moves from 30(30) to 60(0) during the interval it takes to bring the new factory devices online.

In contrast however, according to step a.1, attempting to double the capacity of a research facility will result in a total disablement of what would normally be functional devices for the entire time it takes to actually bring on line the last of the new devices.

What is the motivation which supports what appears to be a rather draconian limitation?

(in reply to FeurerKrieg)
Post #: 18
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 2:53:05 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2559
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bk19@mweb.co.za

Now that we all have got to understand the R&D mechanisms I note that there is still a subtle (or apparently so) variance between factories assigned to normal production and factories assigned to R&D.

In particular, when an existing manufacturing factory space is expanded say from 30 working devices to 60 devices (intending to double capacity) these factories will continue generating output whilst the factory floor moves from 30(30) to 60(0) during the interval it takes to bring the new factory devices online.

In contrast however, according to step a.1, attempting to double the capacity of a research facility will result in a total disablement of what would normally be functional devices for the entire time it takes to actually bring on line the last of the new devices.

What is the motivation which supports what appears to be a rather draconian limitation?



Just think of it as a real-world effect. Long, long ago in a facility far, far away (well actually only about 20 miles but it sounds good) as a team leader on research projects I learned to lock the door and refuse to accept any additional "help" when I was on a tight schedule. Each additional person added to a team makes at least one veteran unproductive until he/she gets the newbe up to speed and further disrupts the cohesion of the team for a time. If I were unfortunate enought to have my team "doubled" I would have lost even more time since I and all of the veterans would be busy updating resumes as insurance. OTOH, if I needed to double factory floor output (for hardware, not software) I could easily (given money and people) set up a line parallel to the first without disrupting on-going production at all.

Now was that the intent in this code? Probably not, but I will say the result is certainly not unreasonable as a real-world effect.

(in reply to bk19@mweb.co.za)
Post #: 19
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 3:38:27 PM   
kmitahj

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 4/25/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg
A size 30(0) factory ensures a minimum of 1 R&D point per day, with some chance of 2 R&D points. (And maybe 3 as well? I'm not so sure on that part based on the comment where michaelm said you would need 570(0) to get 3.)

Unless Micheal decides to change original implementation no chance for 2 r&d pts.
You get guaranteed 1 r&d pt from factory of size 30(0)+ (actually 29 will do but 30 is so much easier to remember and preach)
You need at least 270(0) factory to get a chance for 2 r&d pts a day.
You need at least 570(0) factory to get a chance for 3 r&d pts a day.

quote:

In particular, when an existing manufacturing factory space is expanded say from 30 working devices to 60 devices (intending to double capacity) these factories will continue generating output whilst the factory floor moves from 30(30) to 60(0) during the interval it takes to bring the new factory devices online.


Think about factory as an entity with large number of hands working at assembly line (workers) and a few brains taking care to make the assemby process smooth (engineers). In research number of hands is not so important as number of brains working on plane improvements - engineers are perfectly happy to get one new plane prototype a day for their tests (hence factory of size 30 is enough to give steady stream of r&d pts day by day). But because the number of engineers in factory is limited you may use thier skills either on research of new aircraft model or on supervision of assembly lines expansion but not on both at the same time.
Well, it is just a story line - as good or as bad as any other I guess.

(in reply to FeurerKrieg)
Post #: 20
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 4:21:11 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3058
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline
Could someone draw me a flow chart lol. As how the hell would ANY R&D factory ever be be able to get 3 points the way it is now (or soon will be)?

It is reasonable to get a 30(0) R&D factory at some point in the game. I currently have several that are fully repaired.

So step a1 could give me 1 or 2 points with only a 1/30 chance of 2

a2 then randonizes this even further by taking the 1 or 2 points and generationg yet ANOTHER random number between 1 and 2 BUT ONLY if the magic die roll of step a1 produced a 2 result. Otherwise you got a 1. I.E. a 1 result in a1 results in a 1 result in a2

In step b it divides the result in a2 by 10. So it makes absoulutly NO difference of a 1 or a 2 result in either a1 or a2 as this step will ALWAYS give a 0 result. This will be the course of any game I am familar with. I have not seen anyone be able to get over 270 fully repaired R&D factories. Remember, this code works on a factory by factory basis. So a SINGLE R&D factory would have to 270 or larger. This is beyond absurd.

However because we passed the step in a1, the R&D Gods take pity on us and provide 1 point for our efforts.

I would suggest that this enitrie section of code be totally scrapped as just say for every 30(0) R&D factory you have you get 1 point. Because there is no way when you divide by 10 in b you will ever get more than 0.


What I suggest is that this code was set up this way for when R&D factories in the old game could repair at the 1/day as product ones do. As that way you could have VERY large R&D factories in a reasonable time. However, when they changed the repair rate of R&D factories to be harder and more randomized, this code was left. Have no clue it this is really true or not, but certainly makes more sense than the process we have now.


(in reply to kmitahj)
Post #: 21
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 5:45:33 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2559
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Could someone draw me a flow chart lol. As how the hell would ANY R&D factory ever be be able to get 3 points the way it is now (or soon will be)?

It is reasonable to get a 30(0) R&D factory at some point in the game. I currently have several that are fully repaired.




Well, this was covered in intensive detail earlier, but I don't have a clue about how to find it. So I'll wing it.

Basically, if you want to get a number of 30(0) R&D factories working to accelerate 1944 a/c, it's really quite simple

1. Trace the upgrade path BACKWARD from the plane you want (call it Px) to one due in a couple of months (call it P1)
2. Set up your R&D sites to P1 and increase each one to an eventual size of 30
3. Sit back until P1 is almost due
4. CHANGE every R&D side from P1 to P2, the next a/c after P1 in the chain that leads to Px
5. Repeat as each interim a/c gets close to bingo
6 WHEN each site reaches 30(0), change it ONE STEP AT A TIME along the upgrade path to Px

Basis:
A. R&D sites repair faster when the target a/c is nearly due
B. Change R&D sites EXACTLY, STEP BY STEP along an upgrade path does not damage them

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 22
RE: Japanese R&D - revised - 9/18/2011 6:54:46 PM   
inqistor


Posts: 1811
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm
(a.1) Daily number of initial devices from factory is as with a/c production [ (active devices + random(30))/30]. If this number is 0, or there are any damaged devices present, then no R&D will result this turn from this factory. [This agrees with the manual ]
(a.2) A factory will then produce a random R&D between 1 and the number of devices from step (a.1) ie 1 device = 1, 2 devices = 1,2, 3 devices =1,2,3, 4 devices = 1,2,3,4 10 devices = 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 etc.
(b) The random R&D is then divided by 10. Any random R&D of less than 10 will be '0', otherwise it will be the ten's component of the random R&D.
(c) If there are no damaged devices in factory (this is a given as there must be NO damaged ones present), add '1' to the number from (b).
(d) If the number from (c) exceeds 3, it is capped at '3'.

My bad. I have written without brackets, and everyone believed

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
In step b it divides the result in a2 by 10. So it makes absoulutly NO difference of a 1 or a 2 result in either a1 or a2 as this step will ALWAYS give a 0 result. This will be the course of any game I am familar with. I have not seen anyone be able to get over 270 fully repaired R&D factories. Remember, this code works on a factory by factory basis. So a SINGLE R&D factory would have to 270 or larger. This is beyond absurd.

Yeah, procedure seems to be complete waste of time, because every factory between 30, and 270 will produce ALWAYS 1 point per day.
Since this is not board game, I would prefer for EVERY extra point to be better. So I would propose change whole procedure to this:
(a.2) random R&D is chosen between 0, and current factory_size+production from (a.1), so:
RANDOM(factory_size+(a.1))

(b) divide (a.2) by 30, and round this down


That way, factory of size 30, will behave, as previously. Factory of size 60, will research by around 50% faster, and factory of size 90, will research 2 times as fast, as size 30. Afterward it will be better, but with dimnishing returns, as maximum number will be capped at 3.

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 23
RE: Japanese R&D - revised - 9/18/2011 7:09:47 PM   
darbycmcd

 

Posts: 381
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline
I appreciate very much the time everyone put into helping clarify this for me. I always thought it was just the same as normal aircraft production, aside from the fact that only fully repaired factories produced points. So it was helpful to have more info. Thanks!

(in reply to inqistor)
Post #: 24
RE: Japanese R&D - revised - 9/18/2011 7:16:35 PM   
FeurerKrieg


Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline
I have no problem with the code as it is currently. I think 1 R&D pt per day is plenty. Does it help to simplify the code? Maybe, but if it ain't broke don't fix it right?

I'm just glad that I now know, definitively and not just based on testing/speculation, that 30(0) is the sweet spot and if I want to do better than that I'd have to go up to 270(0).

Let's not forget that if you have ten 30(0) factories you will be cranking out 10 R&D points PER DAY, and you can advance very quickly, probably too quickly for some, but if you are advancing ONE model that fast, you will be limited on how much you can work on any others, so it is probably well balanced as it stands now.

Don't change it!! :)

It might be nice to see in the Aircraft pool screen how many R&D points are currently accumulated though...



_____________________________


Upper portion used with permission of www.subart.net, copyright John Meeks

(in reply to darbycmcd)
Post #: 25
RE: Japanese R&D - revised - 9/18/2011 7:23:54 PM   
inqistor


Posts: 1811
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline
Thinking of it...


Japanese planes, which have research factories set at start, should have availability dates set few months AFTER their historical arrival, to include this research which will be done, if player do NOT change anything.

As this is now, every model will arrive at its historical date, or earlier, even when player do not invest as much R&D, as Japan during war.

(in reply to FeurerKrieg)
Post #: 26
RE: Japanese R&D - 9/18/2011 7:59:17 PM   
Herrbear


Posts: 883
Joined: 7/26/2004
From: Glendora, CA
Status: offline
DELETED AS I WAS WRONG IN MY INTERPRETATION OF HOW IT WAS TO WORK.

< Message edited by Herrbear -- 9/18/2011 8:26:51 PM >

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 27
RE: Japanese R&D - revised - 9/19/2011 1:40:04 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4775
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

I have no problem with the code as it is currently. I think 1 R&D pt per day is plenty. Does it help to simplify the code? Maybe, but if it ain't broke don't fix it right?

I'm just glad that I now know, definitively and not just based on testing/speculation, that 30(0) is the sweet spot and if I want to do better than that I'd have to go up to 270(0).

I've been telling people that since witp-stock, it was based on ...
quote:


Let's not forget that if you have ten 30(0) factories you will be cranking out 10 R&D points PER DAY, and you can advance very quickly, probably too quickly for some, but if you are advancing ONE model that fast, you will be limited on how much you can work on any others, so it is probably well balanced as it stands now.

Don't change it!! :)

YES - don't change it - it's easy enough now with multiple factories. There is plenty of evidence in previous threads about long range advancement. This system is easier than stock because of the upgrade system.
It's OK if you disagree with my assertion. I'll outline why I think changes should be made to the realistic mode, if not both systems.
1. I have nothing against moving the R&D to the next upgrade, as this would reflect technical upgrades, but I do have an issue with moving more than 1 upgrade at a time. Going from the M3a to the M8 without having to research each successive innovation is in my mind not how research in the real world works. Researchers don't usually skip generations. Maybe I'm wrong about this but it just seems to game the system.
2. If the present system is kept then there also should be a reduction in productive R&D capacity as each upgrade path is worked. ie. M3a 30(0) -> M5 20(0) -> M5a 14(0). This would reflect a tiered approach and reduction in R&D for each movement along the curve.
3. Overall, it is too easy at present for someone who knows the system well to get some planes years in advance and others many months in advance - & that is something I think should be arrested. Esp. for realistic research.

quote:


It might be nice to see in the Aircraft pool screen how many R&D points are currently accumulated though...

You can see it now on the mouse-over in the Industry screen as a percentage. Michael has put it in, so I'm going to put it in Tracker for the next release...
Having said that I kinda liked the mystique of not knowing

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 9/19/2011 1:42:37 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to FeurerKrieg)
Post #: 28
RE: Japanese R&D - revised - 9/19/2011 1:52:39 AM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3058
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

I have no problem with the code as it is currently. I think 1 R&D pt per day is plenty. Does it help to simplify the code? Maybe, but if it ain't broke don't fix it right?

I'm just glad that I now know, definitively and not just based on testing/speculation, that 30(0) is the sweet spot and if I want to do better than that I'd have to go up to 270(0).

Let's not forget that if you have ten 30(0) factories you will be cranking out 10 R&D points PER DAY, and you can advance very quickly, probably too quickly for some, but if you are advancing ONE model that fast, you will be limited on how much you can work on any others, so it is probably well balanced as it stands now.

Don't change it!! :)

It might be nice to see in the Aircraft pool screen how many R&D points are currently accumulated though...




Do have any idea of how long it will take to get 10 R&D factories to 30(0)? Also, the further away the historical date of the plane arivial date is there is a MUCH higher chance there will be 0 repair. I still have R&D factories that have not gotten a single point repaired in 18 months of game play.

As I have been aggressively trying to accelerate planes, I have exactly 2 factories that are fully repaired that are 30 or higher (one 55, the other 32) The rest are still danaged (so zero points) or are fully repaired but in the 5-15 range with most under 10.

Also after 18 months of play I have a whopping total of 33 out of 106 R&D factories that are fully repaired. With the vast majority of the 33 producing under 10/month i.e (under 10(0)). So your example of having 10 factories of 30(0) is not a reasonable expectation. This is with planning out using the next plane in squence (I have a thread on that too ) as someone suggested above.

I should also point out that even if the available date is only one month away for an airframe, it still reapirs at a much slower rate that is nowhere close to the 1/day that production factories enjoy. Although they do repair faster than a plane that is 6 months or longer away. So there is a cap on how fast R&D factories can repair regardless of the availability data.

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 9/19/2011 1:54:09 AM >

(in reply to FeurerKrieg)
Post #: 29
RE: Japanese R&D - revised - 9/19/2011 1:58:53 AM   
pompack


Posts: 2559
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
EDIT:

Post deleted in the interests of forum harmony

< Message edited by pompack -- 9/19/2011 2:03:02 AM >

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Tech Support >> Japanese R&D Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.188