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Hiwis and 1.05

 
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Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/3/2011 3:24:40 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

13) New Rule – Hiwis (Hilfswilliger - "auxiliary volunteers") – Rules have been added to account for the soldiers and civilians that served as support personnel for German units during WWII (known as Hiwis).
a) Hiwis are generated from captured men. 8% of captured manpower will go into a Hiwi pool. Also, captured manpower centers also produce 10 men for each captured point (theater production limits and damage apply).
b) Hiwis can be added to German unit’s Support and Labor Squads starting from 1942.
c) Hiwis can't be added to High Command HQs.
d) Hiwis can't be more than 70% of current labor ground element TOE, 30% of current support element TOE, or 10% of current support element TOE of an SS Elite unit TOE.
e) If the parent element is targeted and is destroyed there is a maximum 60% chance that a Hiwis squad will be destroyed instead (the less percentage of the element made up with Hiwis, the smaller the chance that a Hiwi squad will be destroyed).
f) Hiwis elements provide the same amount of support and engineer values as a normal support squad.
g) If using an old save, when first loaded the game will generate some amount of Hiwis based on existing captured men and manpower centers.
h) Interface changes - The number of Hiwis in a unit is show on the unit’s detailed information display. The number of Hiwi elements is shown in parenthesis next to the ground element type. So the entry Support (Hiwi 2) indicates that 2 of the support squads in the unit are Hiwi squads). The production screen has an entry for Hiwis, showing how many men are in the Hiwi pool.


I really like the proposed HIWI rules, as Hiwis were an important addition to the German Army. It also confers some benefit to the Wehrmacth from the population of Russia.

I am curious as to how this will shake-out in game terms. I am not 100% familiar with all the ins and outs of the replacement system.

When replacements for Labor/Support are needed, will HIWIS be drawn first? If all your units are at 100% for support and labor squad needs, will it draw HIWIS, and put Germans back in the pool?

Wehrmacht Infantry will go through a process of converting Support Squads to Rifle Squads. How will HIWIS impact this? (I'm pretty sure they won't convert to Rifle units, but I wonder if you are at the 30% cap already, if they will prevent German Squads from converting, because if they do, it will push HIWIS over the Cap)

Is it pretty much a given that HIWIS will get used, or will they end up accumulating in the pool?

If they get 100% used, and the net effect it to put Germans on the line on a 1 for 1 basis, then it's basically like extending Wehrmacht Manpower production. Which is a good thing, but just making sure that's what is happening.

Also, as Germans I never paid attention to the amount of Captured Manpower Centers. What is a reasonable range in 1942 for the Germans to have in Russia?

Occupied Soviet Manpower degrades over time; the Manpower will disappear slowly. Will this still happen? (I think it should, just checking)

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/3/2011 4:35:46 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

When replacements for Labor/Support are needed, will HIWIS be drawn first?


Yes

quote:


If all your units are at 100% for support and labor squad needs, will it draw HIWIS, and put Germans back in the pool?


No
quote:


Wehrmacht Infantry will go through a process of converting Support Squads to Rifle Squads. How will HIWIS impact this?


Hiwis won't be used for that.

quote:

Is it pretty much a given that HIWIS will get used, or will they end up accumulating in the pool?


So far I don't see them staying in the pool.

quote:


What is a reasonable range in 1942 for the Germans to have in Russia?


The more is better.

quote:

Occupied Soviet Manpower degrades over time; the Manpower will disappear slowly. Will this still happen?


Yes

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/3/2011 6:52:49 PM   
gradenko2k

 

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quote:

Hiwis won't be used for that.

I think the question was:

100 Support Squads - 70 German squads, 30 HIWI squads

If 4 German Support Squads converts to Rifle Squads, then the TOE of Support Squads is now 31% HIWI (or 30 Support Squads out of 96)

Does the cap mean that:
A. The conversion will not happen, since the game knows it will cause the unit to exceed the 30% cap
B. The conversion will happen, but any additional Support Squads will only ever be German squads, to prevent from exceeding the cap more than it already did
C. Some other outcome

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/3/2011 6:55:51 PM   
Zebedee


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Will the Hiwi pool be used to replenish units which were formed and based around nationalities included in the 'Hiwi' figures rather than those units drawing from German manpools? eg 20th Waffen Grenadier Division (can't spot 15th and 19th, which would be the other two which spring straight to mind, in the reinforcements list).


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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/3/2011 7:12:20 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

Will the Hiwi pool be used to replenish units which were formed and based around nationalities included in the 'Hiwi' figures rather than those units drawing from German manpools? eg 20th Waffen Grenadier Division (can't spot 15th and 19th, which would be the other two which spring straight to mind, in the reinforcements list).


No.

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/3/2011 7:13:30 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

B. The conversion will happen, but any additional Support Squads will only ever be German squads, to prevent from exceeding the cap more than it already did


B

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/4/2011 1:20:45 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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Hi

Another member posted the following - it would be excellent for the HIWI repl to be used in these units apparantly missing in the formal game.

I copied it so here it is;

Hello,
I am working on a 41-45 GC mod with german additionnal units
that were neglected in the game OOB.
These units are listed beneauth, and were mainly involved in antipartisan duties.
I already add one unit type to TOE (infantry regiment (-)
and suceeded in adding one unit on the map, for a start.
I colud need some help though.
Yours
Stephane

UNIT NAME UNIT TYPE TOE #
ARRIVAL DEPARTURE
Freikorps Danmark Infantry regiment (-) 358
MAY 42 APRIL 43
Légion Volontaires Français Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 NOV 41 1 SEP 44
Corps Franc Wallonie Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 NOV 41 28 FEB 42
Freiwilligen Legion Niederland Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 JAN 42 1 APR 43
Legion Espanola Voluntarios Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 NOV 43 1 MAR 44
369th Kroatische Infantry regiment
22 AUG 41 1 FEB 43
3rd Estonian Brigade Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 MAY 43 1 JAN 44
Latvian Police Rgt Riga Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 AUG 43
Latvian Kurland Rgt Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 FEB 44
3rd Latvian Rgt Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 SEP 44
1st Lithuanian Police Rgt Infantry regiment (-) 358
3 JUL 44
Sondervergand Bergman Infantry regiment (-) 358
1 JAN 42
1st Cossack Division cossak division
1 APR 43 1 SEP 43
Kalmuckische Kavallerie Korps cavalry brigade
1 JUL 43
RONA Infantry Division
1 SEP 43 1 MAR 44
SS Sturmbrigade RONA Infantry brigade
1 MAR 44
RNNA Russian Ntl People Army Infantry brigade
1 AUG 44
(VLASOV ARMY)
ROA 600th Div. Volksgrenadier Division
28 JAN 45
ROA 650th Div. Volksgrenadier Division
28 JAN 45
Sonderdivision Russland Infantry Division
1 JAN 43

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/4/2011 1:33:12 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Hi

Another member posted the following - it would be excellent for the HIWI repl to be used in these units apparantly missing in the formal game.

I copied it so here it is;

Hello,
I am working on a 41-45 GC mod with german additionnal units
that were neglected in the game OOB.
These units are listed beneauth, and were mainly involved in antipartisan duties.
I already add one unit type to TOE (infantry regiment (-)
and suceeded in adding one unit on the map, for a start.
I colud need some help though.
Yours
Stephane

UNIT NAME UNIT TYPE TOE #
ARRIVAL DEPARTURE
369th Kroatische Infantry regiment
22 AUG 41 1 FEB 43


Tell him this one is in the game already

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/4/2011 1:33:25 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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I would qualify this a little as some of these units would be formed from appropriate nationals like...

http://axis101.bizland.com/LatvianFeldpost.htm

Cav

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/4/2011 1:34:57 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Hi

Another member posted the following - it would be excellent for the HIWI repl to be used in these units apparantly missing in the formal game.

I copied it so here it is;

Hello,
I am working on a 41-45 GC mod with german additionnal units
that were neglected in the game OOB.
These units are listed beneauth, and were mainly involved in antipartisan duties.
I already add one unit type to TOE (infantry regiment (-)
and suceeded in adding one unit on the map, for a start.
I colud need some help though.
Yours
Stephane

UNIT NAME UNIT TYPE TOE #
ARRIVAL DEPARTURE
369th Kroatische Infantry regiment
22 AUG 41 1 FEB 43


Tell him this one is in the game already


Thought one or two looked familiar but there are a lot here...

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/4/2011 1:43:23 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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like...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3._Estnische_SS_Freiwilligen_Brigade

Cav

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/4/2011 1:45:06 PM   
Q-Ball


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It's an interesting mod, though alot of those units that were "Regiments" were decidedly less than that.

Some of these might be appropriate as Support Units though, as they were often attached to larger formations

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/4/2011 1:47:43 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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I sthis unit in the game then...

20th Estonian Waffen Grenadier Division

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/4/2011 1:52:07 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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This might alos be of interest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostlegionen

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/4/2011 3:15:21 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

It's an interesting mod, though alot of those units that were "Regiments" were decidedly less than that.

Some of these might be appropriate as Support Units though, as they were often attached to larger formations


You may be wrong here. OCS has a lot of Ost troepen and while certainly a mixed bag, some are actually rated as quality 4 or even 5. (roughly 80 and or 90 in WitE terms). And also pretty strong in combat power.

The list above is actually quite small compared to what OCS has...

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/6/2011 8:32:33 PM   
Captain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

It's an interesting mod, though alot of those units that were "Regiments" were decidedly less than that.

Some of these might be appropriate as Support Units though, as they were often attached to larger formations


You may be wrong here. OCS has a lot of Ost troepen and while certainly a mixed bag, some are actually rated as quality 4 or even 5. (roughly 80 and or 90 in WitE terms). And also pretty strong in combat power.

The list above is actually quite small compared to what OCS has...


OCS? I am not familiar with that.

There seem to be two types of troops discussed here.

The "Hiwis" were mostly Russian POWs conscripted as labour by German forces. Some were incorporated into "Ost Battalions" combat units. Although some units apparently fought well, it appears the majority disappeared or surrendered as soon as they saw combat.

There were also "foreign volunteers" which were incorporated into German units, mostly waffen SS formations. This appears to be what Cobexlaw888's mod is addressing. However the manpower for these units did not come from the "Hiwis".

If Hiwis do make it into the game as Ost Battalions, they should really be second rate units used mostly as axis garrison or for anti-partisan duties.

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/6/2011 8:50:53 PM   
Zebedee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain
There seem to be two types of troops discussed here.

The "Hiwis" were mostly Russian POWs conscripted as labour by German forces. Some were incorporated into "Ost Battalions" combat units. Although some units apparently fought well, it appears the majority disappeared or surrendered as soon as they saw combat.

There were also "foreign volunteers" which were incorporated into German units, mostly waffen SS formations. This appears to be what Cobexlaw888's mod is addressing. However the manpower for these units did not come from the "Hiwis".

If Hiwis do make it into the game as Ost Battalions, they should really be second rate units used mostly as axis garrison or for anti-partisan duties.


Turkish, Caucasian, Russian, Ukrainian etc. 'hiwis' in their own units (ie not attached to German units) made up roughly 1/3 of the total hiwi figure on the Eastern Front on 1st November 1944 as accounted for by OKW. Other units which came under SS control are counted under SS figures even though they were not recruiting primarily from German manpower and would have been classed as 'hiwis' under Heer figures - such as the estimated 85k Russians and Ukrainians who found themselves in SS units over the duration of the war in the East. It's a quagmire but sure the devs and researchers are aware of the issues and are looking for some form of balance rather than attempting a foolhardy attempt at being completely 100% historically accurate here as that would be a tad impossible.

< Message edited by Zebedee -- 9/6/2011 8:52:25 PM >

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/6/2011 8:57:48 PM   
abulbulian


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Here's and interesting image I found. I think late war I read out of 150(147?) inf company man roster about 20 positions were slated for Hiwis. But don't quote me on that yet.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 9/6/2011 8:58:24 PM >

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/6/2011 8:59:14 PM   
Zebedee


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If you check the rest of the thread you took that picture from, you'll see the full figures given in a table further down.

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/6/2011 9:28:59 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain


quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

It's an interesting mod, though alot of those units that were "Regiments" were decidedly less than that.

Some of these might be appropriate as Support Units though, as they were often attached to larger formations


You may be wrong here. OCS has a lot of Ost troepen and while certainly a mixed bag, some are actually rated as quality 4 or even 5. (roughly 80 and or 90 in WitE terms). And also pretty strong in combat power.

The list above is actually quite small compared to what OCS has...


OCS? I am not familiar with that.

There seem to be two types of troops discussed here.

The "Hiwis" were mostly Russian POWs conscripted as labour by German forces. Some were incorporated into "Ost Battalions" combat units. Although some units apparently fought well, it appears the majority disappeared or surrendered as soon as they saw combat.

There were also "foreign volunteers" which were incorporated into German units, mostly waffen SS formations. This appears to be what Cobexlaw888's mod is addressing. However the manpower for these units did not come from the "Hiwis".

If Hiwis do make it into the game as Ost Battalions, they should really be second rate units used mostly as axis garrison or for anti-partisan duties.


OCS: Operational Combat Series: Case Blue. Google it, it's really good.

Very detailed OoB too. I played the full campaign a while back as the Axis and there are a LOT of combat Ost Battalions (not to be confused with the Ost Battalions on the Western front made up from captured Russians). There were minorities in the USSR that fought for the Germans.

There quality was mixed, but there were certainly many usefull and sometimes even very good units among them. They would be very usefull in the game to attach to divisions (like other SU's) or to to digging or anti-partisan but also combat if necessary. Many cav units too.

When I've got time, I'll dig up the OCS OoB and make a list, but it's long...

< Message edited by glvaca -- 9/6/2011 9:29:11 PM >

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/6/2011 9:48:18 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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quote:

There were also "foreign volunteers" which were incorporated into German units, mostly waffen SS formations. This appears to be what Cobexlaw888's mod is addressing. However the manpower for these units did not come from the "Hiwis".


I would have thought these units should be in the game - if you have Hiwi then you also need these volunteers and or conscripts. When you read the unit histories they seem quite robust units - especially the ones from the Baltics.

They are not hard to find and therefore should not be hard to include in the game , just like you have repl for Hungary , you can have repl for Lithuanian , Estonia etc.
Cav

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 7:20:57 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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Ok, now I got the reasons for glvaca to post the OCS oob in the other thread :)

Well, there are such "Ost" units in WitE... but not in the GCs. Just check the Red Army Resurgent beta scenario, and you'll find that the "gap" sout of Elista is covered by a bunch of units made of ex-Soviet soldiers.

The reasons for them not being in the GC I think are mostly an engine limitation. To have them and not cause trouble with German replacements, such units should belong to a virtual "Axis" nation. And "hiwis" support squads should be "exports" from this virtual nation to Germany. Seems a bit involved to handle these units in a consistent way.

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 3:53:25 PM   
Montbrun


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Hiwis were NOT Osttruppen - these are two different things. The Hiwis were volunteer POWs that helped in non-combat functions - supply, etc. - support squads in game terms. Osttruppen were combat formations, some personnel recruited from POWS, but the majority were volunteers. Most of these units were used in the West as garrison units. Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 4:10:35 PM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
Hiwis were NOT Osttruppen - these are two different things. The Hiwis were volunteer POWs that helped in non-combat functions - supply, etc. - support squads in game terms. Osttruppen were combat formations, some personnel recruited from POWS, but the majority were volunteers. Most of these units were used in the West as garrison units. Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.


Yes, indeed. The discussion - I think - was about the question/concern of glvaca about historic combat units recruited from Soviet POWs which *did* serve on the eastern German front.

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 4:11:35 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Hiwis were NOT Osttruppen - these are two different things. The Hiwis were volunteer POWs that helped in non-combat functions - supply, etc. - support squads in game terms. Osttruppen were combat formations, some personnel recruited from POWS, but the majority were volunteers. Most of these units were used in the West as garrison units. Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad



There is a third cathegory (which has been discussed above) which are ethnic minorities fighting for the Germans on the East front. They are also labelled Ost truppen. They are quite numerous and are not reflected (directly) in the game currently. And that is what it is about...

< Message edited by glvaca -- 9/7/2011 4:12:36 PM >

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 4:27:56 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Hiwis were NOT Osttruppen - these are two different things. The Hiwis were volunteer POWs that helped in non-combat functions - supply, etc. - support squads in game terms. Osttruppen were combat formations, some personnel recruited from POWS, but the majority were volunteers. Most of these units were used in the West as garrison units. Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad


By the way, since you are on the WitE research team, check this post: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2900682
It's the OoB from OCS: Case Blue
You will notice quite a few units (German and Ost truppen missing in WitE).
Maybe your sources are better but it could be interesting to check...

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 5:36:08 PM   
Great_Ajax


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I can't wrap my head around this list.

Trey

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Hiwis were NOT Osttruppen - these are two different things. The Hiwis were volunteer POWs that helped in non-combat functions - supply, etc. - support squads in game terms. Osttruppen were combat formations, some personnel recruited from POWS, but the majority were volunteers. Most of these units were used in the West as garrison units. Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad


By the way, since you are on the WitE research team, check this post: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2900682
It's the OoB from OCS: Case Blue
You will notice quite a few units (German and Ost truppen missing in WitE).
Maybe your sources are better but it could be interesting to check...



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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 5:43:33 PM   
Zebedee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

Hiwis were NOT Osttruppen - these are two different things. The Hiwis were volunteer POWs that helped in non-combat functions - supply, etc. - support squads in game terms. Osttruppen were combat formations, some personnel recruited from POWS, but the majority were volunteers. Most of these units were used in the West as garrison units. Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad


Hi Brad. Might be worth doublechecking on your certainty over how Hiwis were accounted for in the reporting. The Hiwi totals are very inclusive and do indeed include Osttruppen - whether secondary sources reflect that or not is always curious.

< Message edited by Zebedee -- 9/7/2011 5:44:19 PM >

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 5:57:17 PM   
Steelers708

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad


Hi Brad,

I'm interested in the source for this as certainly by the time of Normandy most German units in France/Holland etc were authorized/had Hiwi's.

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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 6:07:09 PM   
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Consider the second and third order of effects with adding these new units. First, ask yourself do you want replacements siphoned off from your SS and Panzer Divisions to man the 650th Volksgrenadier Division which hardly saw any combat? Will most people even use these units or will they be disbanded for their replacements? If the answer is no but we still want these units, then we have to figure out how to man these units through manpower and create special squads for each nationality. Then you have to consider these security and police units which could unbalance the whole abstracted partisan conflict. If Joel thinks these additions are worthy of the programming time, I would be happy to add them into the campaigns. Personally, I wouldn't want these units sucking up good manpower.

Trey

_____________________________

"You want mercy!? I'm chaotic neutral!"

WiTE Scenario Designer
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Sabre 21's perpetual arch-nemisis

(in reply to Steelers708)
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