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RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/26/2011 4:43:04 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

The whole opponents argument is based on the fact that who-ever plays the Japanese side goes in with the full knowledge that in the end they have a 99% chance of losing no matter how well they play. That is why it is hard to find a Japanese opponent...most people play games to WIN, not to 'see if I can do better than RL.' I have a feeling your average Joe player is going to play Allies most of the time because they want to win the game. It is simple human nature.

Personally I always play as Japan because I love a challenge...and surviving to 8-45 as Japan in this game is a massive challenge.


Its also a given that a game as huge as this will see the bulk of PBEM games end well before the final turn. Bombing the Reich and other "mega" games including the monster board games have similar issues. Situations change, people's schedules change, some lose interest...and yes, some do quit when things don't go their way.....thats human nature. As Shark pointed out....most people play games to win. Thats why there are far more Allied players looking for Japan opponents than the other way around.


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Post #: 91
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/26/2011 5:12:57 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 1966
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I believe some of the imbalance in regards to Allied players over Jap players lays in the complexion of the game more than anything else.




Well no miracle, at least for me. Guess Japan is even MORE time consuming than the allied side (cause of the issue discussed here, they need to manage their industry+production). Not that Japan is seen on the losing side, that should not distract players. Proof: Many US+GB players play the "evil" and losing side Germany in other games.


But I don´t understand the issue really cause if you want a more historic feel play scen 1. If you want a stronger Jap play scen 2

(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 92
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/26/2011 11:04:48 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
The reality was that the "War in the Pacific" was NEVER "equal". Japan started with the advantages of surprise, good preparation, and the refusal of her opponants to take her abilities seriously. Then the Allies countered with a massive mobilization of their incredably superior military and economic capabilities and eventually crushed her.


Seriously , I agree 100%. There's just no smiley for "I'm with him". Only kidding about the "stupid" part Mike.



No offense taken. I just wish more players would realize the reality of history. You can make a game about the "War in the Pacific", but you cannot make it an equal struggle and still have it be about the War in the Pacific.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 93
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/27/2011 12:48:00 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I believe some of the imbalance in regards to Allied players over Jap players lays in the complexion of the game more than anything else.




Well no miracle, at least for me. Guess Japan is even MORE time consuming than the allied side (cause of the issue discussed here, they need to manage their industry+production). Not that Japan is seen on the losing side, that should not distract players. Proof: Many US+GB players play the "evil" and losing side Germany in other games.


But I don´t understand the issue really cause if you want a more historic feel play scen 1. If you want a stronger Jap play scen 2



I don't have any beef with the Japan-on-steriods variants like Scenario #2, or Reluctant Admiral. 'Cause if I did have a beef, I'd write my own scenario, and I haven't, so I don't.

But if I did have a beef, it would be that the plussed-up Japan scenarios all give Japan lots of additional goodies from the get-go, precisely when they don't actually need them to keep the allies on the run.

I'd be interested, as an allied player, to play a plausible scenario when Japan's shiny new reinforcements roll in in late '42 and '43, allowing a longer stretch of "balanced" play. But I'm not interested enough to actually research and design it myself.


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Post #: 94
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/28/2011 1:01:17 AM   
rader


Posts: 1222
Joined: 9/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

I don't have any beef with the Japan-on-steriods variants like Scenario #2, or Reluctant Admiral. 'Cause if I did have a beef, I'd write my own scenario, and I haven't, so I don't.

But if I did have a beef, it would be that the plussed-up Japan scenarios all give Japan lots of additional goodies from the get-go, precisely when they don't actually need them to keep the allies on the run.

I'd be interested, as an allied player, to play a plausible scenario when Japan's shiny new reinforcements roll in in late '42 and '43, allowing a longer stretch of "balanced" play. But I'm not interested enough to actually research and design it myself.



I think you're right about this. I'm planning to make a scenario when I get around to it, and it would be a scenario 2 variant but with Japan's LCUs coming in later, like in late 1943 to early 1944. Also want to give them the other Yamatos in case anyone is crazy enough to build them... plus some fun Alaska type BCs and more CAs to build. Of course, it's fantasy land, but that's sort of the point

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 95
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/28/2011 5:12:13 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
The reality was that the "War in the Pacific" was NEVER "equal". Japan started with the advantages of surprise, good preparation, and the refusal of her opponants to take her abilities seriously. Then the Allies countered with a massive mobilization of their incredably superior military and economic capabilities and eventually crushed her.


Seriously , I agree 100%. There's just no smiley for "I'm with him". Only kidding about the "stupid" part Mike.



No offense taken. I just wish more players would realize the reality of history. You can make a game about the "War in the Pacific", but you cannot make it an equal struggle and still have it be about the War in the Pacific.



Well, you can, but then it could lead to serious confusions about what you are actually playing, which further leads to the creation of this thread.

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Post #: 96
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/28/2011 3:50:20 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
The reality was that the "War in the Pacific" was NEVER "equal". Japan started with the advantages of surprise, good preparation, and the refusal of her opponants to take her abilities seriously. Then the Allies countered with a massive mobilization of their incredably superior military and economic capabilities and eventually crushed her.


Seriously , I agree 100%. There's just no smiley for "I'm with him". Only kidding about the "stupid" part Mike.



No offense taken. I just wish more players would realize the reality of history. You can make a game about the "War in the Pacific", but you cannot make it an equal struggle and still have it be about the War in the Pacific.



Well, you can,


NOT REALLY.., "Lo". The second you make it "equal", it's ceased to be the War in the Pacific and become some badly designed joke... You can CALL a pile of horse droppings "mercedes"---but that doesn't make it a car.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 97
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/28/2011 6:57:47 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
The reality was that the "War in the Pacific" was NEVER "equal". Japan started with the advantages of surprise, good preparation, and the refusal of her opponants to take her abilities seriously. Then the Allies countered with a massive mobilization of their incredably superior military and economic capabilities and eventually crushed her.


Seriously , I agree 100%. There's just no smiley for "I'm with him". Only kidding about the "stupid" part Mike.



No offense taken. I just wish more players would realize the reality of history. You can make a game about the "War in the Pacific", but you cannot make it an equal struggle and still have it be about the War in the Pacific.



Well, you can,


NOT REALLY.., "Lo". The second you make it "equal", it's ceased to be the War in the Pacific and become some badly designed joke... You can CALL a pile of horse droppings "mercedes"---but that doesn't make it a car.

Mike, just wanted to say that while sometimes in the past I have not agreed with you, this is specific instance where I agree with you 100%. In particular your first statement above. Good assessment and accurate by my perspective. Thanks.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 98
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/29/2011 1:17:13 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
Mike, just wanted to say that while sometimes in the past I have not agreed with you, this is specific instance where I agree with you 100%. In particular your first statement above. Good assessment and accurate by my perspective. Thanks.



PAX. Men of good will (and good sense) are not required to agree all the time..., just to respect and consider one another's positions. Personally, I think I'm always right..., but I'm smart enough to know I might be mistaken.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 99
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/29/2011 6:22:45 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
The reality was that the "War in the Pacific" was NEVER "equal". Japan started with the advantages of surprise, good preparation, and the refusal of her opponants to take her abilities seriously. Then the Allies countered with a massive mobilization of their incredably superior military and economic capabilities and eventually crushed her.


Seriously , I agree 100%. There's just no smiley for "I'm with him". Only kidding about the "stupid" part Mike.



No offense taken. I just wish more players would realize the reality of history. You can make a game about the "War in the Pacific", but you cannot make it an equal struggle and still have it be about the War in the Pacific.



Well, you can,


NOT REALLY.., "Lo". The second you make it "equal", it's ceased to be the War in the Pacific and become some badly designed joke... You can CALL a pile of horse droppings "mercedes"---but that doesn't make it a car.

Mike, just wanted to say that while sometimes in the past I have not agreed with you, this is specific instance where I agree with you 100%. In particular your first statement above. Good assessment and accurate by my perspective. Thanks.


Well, while a modified scenario might give one or the other individual the opportunity to outperform himself
with exceptionally bold comparisions, its still utilizes the diplomatic status and the geographical position enabling you
to call it War in the Pacific.

And Mike, I have always been under the impression that a mercedes at least resembles a...oh ok, lets skip that, I don´t know what you are driving...

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 7/29/2011 6:29:40 AM >


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Post #: 100
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/29/2011 10:47:58 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Well, while a modified scenario might give one or the other individual the opportunity to outperform himself
with exceptionally bold comparisions, its still utilizes the diplomatic status and the geographical position enabling you
to call it War in the Pacific.

And Mike, I have always been under the impression that a mercedes at least resembles a...oh ok, lets skip that, I don´t know what you are driving...



I'm on Social Security..., I drive an old Mazda. Gets me where I want to go, and is cheap to insure and drive. And the personal property taxes are less than $10 a year.

My own view is that "The War in the Pacific" is a specific historical event which reequires more than geography and diplomatic status to reproduce. Without the economic realities of the situation, it becomes a rather silly exercise. Like calling something "The American Civil War", but giving the Confederacy battleships and tanks.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 101
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/30/2011 10:53:20 AM   
1275psi

 

Posts: 7970
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
wow, interesting thread

I feel special now..............
japanese player playing Scene 1...........and hoping my allied opponent will not pull out before 43!
I actually want to fight to 45.defending the homeland is such an interesting idea!


The key to all this is to me.....1/.find a like minded opponent. 2/ read the AARs........then pick your opponent

for me.winning.blah..........its the journey men, the journey

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 102
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/30/2011 12:07:21 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

I don't have any beef with the Japan-on-steriods variants like Scenario #2, or Reluctant Admiral. 'Cause if I did have a beef, I'd write my own scenario, and I haven't, so I don't.

But if I did have a beef, it would be that the plussed-up Japan scenarios all give Japan lots of additional goodies from the get-go, precisely when they don't actually need them to keep the allies on the run.

I'd be interested, as an allied player, to play a plausible scenario when Japan's shiny new reinforcements roll in in late '42 and '43, allowing a longer stretch of "balanced" play. But I'm not interested enough to actually research and design it myself.


Can't say I'm entirely impartial here (), but most significant Japanese extras in Reluctant Admiral arrive in 1943 and later, no earlier than autumn of 1942 even with acceleration efforts. Japan still gets, IMO, more extra punch at the start than the Allies do (they do get some bonuses and additional options compared to the stock), but on the whole it is far less front-loaded than Scen 2.

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 103
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/30/2011 12:27:52 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aztez
Also, FatR states that japanese cannot win the war. Well, maybe in terms of territory but in terms of points that is definately doable.

There are 2 ways for a Japanese players to win by points. An auto-victory in 1943 is possible (it happened in at least one AAR), but, by all indications, is really hard to pull off. In 1944 and later it is vastly improbable. A victory by the final VP calculation at the end of the scenario... well, I don't think anyone actually survived that far yet.

(in reply to aztez)
Post #: 104
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/30/2011 12:51:26 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
FWIIW I always considered a Japanese player victorious in scen#1 in case it survives beyond VJ day, or if it really comes
to an invasion of the HIs, beyond ´45.

VP is too abstract and too dependent on strategically unimportant occurances meshed together on a scoring card. I ignore it completely.

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Post #: 105
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