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Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/20/2011 5:18:28 PM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		I know this question has been discussed in a limited manner in the past but can someone please explain to me why the allies get so few replacement aircraft. It's Jan. 1943 in my GC2 pbem game and I am getting very few aircraft. The allies were a monster when it came to aircraft production and should never be short of aircraft. The allies should always have many Wildcats and Dauntless DB's since they were mainly only used in the South Pacific. I think aircraft replacement in AE is a major flaw.
Post #: 1
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/20/2011 5:27:57 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6410
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		You get what was historically made available to the PTO. It is up to you to use the right tactics to husband your given resources properly.

Alfred

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Post #: 2
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/20/2011 10:37:36 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14492
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From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

I know this question has been discussed in a limited manner in the past but can someone please explain to me why the allies get so few replacement aircraft. It's Jan. 1943 in my GC2 pbem game and I am getting very few aircraft. The allies were a monster when it came to aircraft production and should never be short of aircraft. The allies should always have many Wildcats and Dauntless DB's since they were mainly only used in the South Pacific. I think aircraft replacement in AE is a major flaw.


You know there was a war going on in Europe. And both FDR and Churchill agreed Hitler 1st. They there's the problem with production, as only one plant each made those planes, till others were built or converted. Prewar production of those two planes were measured in tens per month. It takes a while to go from a handfull to hundreds.

I other words, you really do need to do your home work and do some research as to how many planes were truly available. You'll find that the developers of this game really nailed it , accurracy wise. I don't think aircraft replacement in AE is a flaw. I think it's absolutely where it should be. I do think you need to educate yourself on this matter before you start throwing stones. Otherwise you may wind up be very embarrased.

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RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/20/2011 10:44:28 PM   
darbycmcd

 

Posts: 381
Joined: 12/6/2005
Status: offline 		Well, don't jump too hard on him Steve, you are both correct. You are saying that the numbers are historically accurate, that is true. But it is also true that those numbers are used even when the game situation is very different than the historical situation. It is not unreasonable to think that more could have flowed to the Pacific if it was deemed necessary. I don't doubt that if Australia or India were under invasion, substantially more American forces could have been directed there, even at the expense of operations in the ETO. It can be frustrating that the Japanese player can produce essentially unlimited numbers of planes of their choosing and the Allies are stuck with the historically accurate numbers. I think it works ok for the game, but you have to see the OPs frustration.

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Post #: 4
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/20/2011 11:47:17 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21098
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		The OP is right, at least for Scenario Two with production on.  The Allies may be limited to what was historically available, but Japan certainly isn't.  It's a whacky world where the Allies are always short on aircraft.  If that's limited to Scenario Two, then those of us who choose Scenario Two don't exactly have a basis to complain.  But if that's the same thing in Scenario One, then it probably needs tweaking so that one side doesn't have unlimited aircraft and the other very limited.

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Post #: 5
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 2:57:50 AM   
ADB123

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The OP is right, at least for Scenario Two with production on.  The Allies may be limited to what was historically available, but Japan certainly isn't.  It's a whacky world where the Allies are always short on aircraft.  If that's limited to Scenario Two, then those of us who choose Scenario Two don't exactly have a basis to complain.  But if that's the same thing in Scenario One, then it probably needs tweaking so that one side doesn't have unlimited aircraft and the other very limited.


There's nothing to stop the Japanese player from producing huge numbers of AC in Scenario 1, other than the usual constraints on Fuel, Resources, Supply, Oil and so on. It's easy to mess up badly and end up with fewer planes than the Allies (as I found out in my first Japanese pbem). But for someone who pays proper attention to Japanese Production it ought to be possible to darken the skies over most of the Pacific with Japanese planes by the end of 1942.

That said, it is also possible in the same time period to build up a sizeable reserve of many Allied planes (except for US bombers) if one doesn't attempt hopeless battles of attrition in 1942.

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RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 3:05:02 AM   
Mynok


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Status: offline 		If the Jap player puts up clouds of planes they will run out of useful pilots in very short order. The Japanese constraint isn't production so much as pilot training. They have to dedicate a LOT of groups to training in order to keep up with losses.




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Post #: 7
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 3:12:44 AM   
vonTirpitz


Posts: 511
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Wilmington, NC
Status: offline 		Agreed. That and there are only so many airgroups available to put planes in.

The Jap player that produces huge numbers of planes will either end up having them waste away in the pools or risk having a capable Allied player converting them into VPs by shooting them down with their inexperienced pilots and obsolete airframes.

IIRC A similar thread a few months back pretty much indicated that no Jap players have yet come close to producing 'historical' levels overall (there may be some who overproduce a particular airframe beyond what was historically built but they will still get shot down by better allied planes and pilots later in the war).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

If the Jap player puts up clouds of planes they will run out of useful pilots in very short order. The Japanese constraint isn't production so much as pilot training. They have to dedicate a LOT of groups to training in order to keep up with losses.






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RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 5:25:43 AM   
sdhundt

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2002
From: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Status: offline 		Well it's Jan. 1943, I have about 1/10 the combat aircraft that my VERY good opponent has (ROY the God of the rising Sun). I'm thinking of dispanding Most new squadrans that arrive in the west cost in order to get the aircraft to the areas that need them. Any thoughts on this tactic ??

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Post #: 9
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 5:52:27 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADB123


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The OP is right, at least for Scenario Two with production on.  The Allies may be limited to what was historically available, but Japan certainly isn't.  It's a whacky world where the Allies are always short on aircraft.  If that's limited to Scenario Two, then those of us who choose Scenario Two don't exactly have a basis to complain.  But if that's the same thing in Scenario One, then it probably needs tweaking so that one side doesn't have unlimited aircraft and the other very limited.


There's nothing to stop the Japanese player from producing huge numbers of AC in Scenario 1, other than the usual constraints on Fuel, Resources, Supply, Oil and so on. It's easy to mess up badly and end up with fewer planes than the Allies (as I found out in my first Japanese pbem). But for someone who pays proper attention to Japanese Production it ought to be possible to darken the skies over most of the Pacific with Japanese planes by the end of 1942.

That said, it is also possible in the same time period to build up a sizeable reserve of many Allied planes (except for US bombers) if one doesn't attempt hopeless battles of attrition in 1942.


Perhaps in scen #1 but I doubt it. In scen #2 you can forget it. I have been killing Viperpol's aircraft at a 3-2 clip since day one and still have virtually no planes of any type in my pools. 1/44 (Well, I do have a comfortable supply of whiraways..) It depends on the type of opponent. An aggressive Japanese player can push you until you have to fight and drain your pools. Look at Greyjoys AAR vs Rader where Rader has admitted that he is willing to lose any number of replaceable Japanese aircraft in order to suck Greyjoy's pools down. And, it is working. I have to admit that it is a bit out of whack. The biggest issue is not the numbers but that the Allies get very little recourse when a crisis occurs and you need help. I would gladly turn off the Atom bomb program (saving a cool two billion dollars and millions of man hours) so that I could build another 100 P38s per month in 1943.

The problem is giving the Japanese player total control of production and PDUs. I wish there is was a middle ground where there was some control but not total. Perhaps high PP costs for halting production on certain ships like the super BBs or the Shinano. Or PPs costs for advancing research or ignoring certain types of planes.


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RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 5:57:18 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

If the Jap player puts up clouds of planes they will run out of useful pilots in very short order. The Japanese constraint isn't production so much as pilot training. They have to dedicate a LOT of groups to training in order to keep up with losses.





No, I have not seen this in my game. Ark will have to confirm this but I see no shortage of high quality Japanese pilots at all. And, I have killed enough of them. In fact, with no spare planes in the pools, Allied training can fall way behind the Japanese in 42 and 43 because empty units can train but only at a very slow pace. More planes means better trained pilots-not the reverse.


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Post #: 11
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 6:17:29 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


Perhaps in scen #1 but I doubt it. In scen #2 you can forget it. I have been killing Viperpol's aircraft at a 3-2 clip since day one and still have virtually no planes of any type in my pools. 1/44 (Well, I do have a comfortable supply of whiraways..)

If he is matching your air production through '43, it would interesting to know his HI stocks.

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Post #: 12
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 6:20:11 AM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
Status: offline 		Play with PDU OFF. That option is at least as valuable to the Japanese as historic torpedoes, probably an order of magnitude more effective than for the allied player. 2 nationalities means they can mainstream all production to the best planes. Allied has 13 or so nationalities, so PDU is really only helpful for the British, USN and USA air groups. Dutch, Chinese, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, PI, CW, US Marines and Indian units all have to stick with their planned upgrades. (although, I think Michael has helped with this in the new betas.) And, the allied player can't change production, so what's the benefit to changing upgrade paths if there are no good planes in the pool?

Then, play one of the mods where they make an attempt to get production to a closer reality. If the IJ player uses half his xAK's for troop transport, then it's not reality. Those ships need to move resources, supplies, oil and fuel. Not troops. Da Babes and Treespider are working on the economic model a bit.

Finally, make training a pilot a 2 year process. After the 42 carrier battles, and the early 43 sweeps over Rabaul, Japan started training pilots. By the Philipine Sea battle in June '44, those 'new' pilots still sucked. That was about 1.5 years after they started their training program. From what I can gather from some of the AAR's (I don't do pilot training myself), it takes more like 3 months to get decent pilots out of the training program? I think IRL the US kept their pilots in training for 2 full years before they saw combat.

Of course, there's still the issue of too easy logistics for both sides. The IJN gets the benefit in 42, the Allied player gets the benefit the rest of the war. The Babes team has tried to make some good changes to slow down both sides dramatically, but I haven't played that scenario. I hope it works, because the allied player should not be invading PI in late 43/early 44, assuming a competent IJ player.

So, in summary, economics, pilot training and logistics are probably off by a small or large proportion to real life. Some of the mods have helped to correct one or more of these, but stock is probably going to stay the same.

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RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 7:02:14 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 4902
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From: Hex 82,170
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonTirpitz

IIRC A similar thread a few months back pretty much indicated that no Jap players have yet come close to producing 'historical' levels overall (there may be some who overproduce a particular airframe beyond what was historically built but they will still get shot down by better allied planes and pilots later in the war).


You recall correctly. On one of the previous times this was discussed I asked for an example of a game (scenario 1) in which the Japanese produced significantly more aircraft than they did historically, but I did not receive a single reply to that question.

If the Japanese can consistently produce more aircraft than they did historically, while in a similar strategic situation, then it would indeed warrant a review of their production capacity. This is in relation to scenario 1, of course.

Andrew

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Post #: 14
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 8:50:50 AM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline 		In my scenario 2 game playing as the Japs which lasted until mid 45 I estimated I only produced 20% more a/c in total than they did in real life.

The big difference of course is that the player can concentrate on the most useful types and not produce any of the dross that the Japs turned out in real life.

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Post #: 15
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 9:37:30 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6361
Joined: 1/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

In my scenario 2 game playing as the Japs which lasted until mid 45 I estimated I only produced 20% more a/c in total than they did in real life.

The big difference of course is that the player can concentrate on the most useful types and not produce any of the dross that the Japs turned out in real life.


IMO, this is one of the important points. the japanese player has the ability to choose its desired mix of aircraft and ships, and in addition using TrackerTM can optimize its production capabilities.

The Allies get what they are given!

I have also found that at least at the start the japanese air can, by its choice of aircraft, superior numbers and pilots, keep the Allies on the back foot far longer than in real life. I find the real change is with the P47 arrival.

Is there any way, through the spending of PP, that the Allies could release reserves or groups earmarked for the ETO, there might be a time where spending 2000PP might be worth it to buy a Fighter Group?? (If these were a "Restricted " Command, can you set the cost to buy them??)


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RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 9:39:57 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
You know there was a war going on in Europe. And both FDR and Churchill agreed Hitler 1st. They there's the problem with production, as only one plant each made those planes, till others were built or converted. Prewar production of those two planes were measured in tens per month. It takes a while to go from a handfull to hundreds.


This is perfectly true. Not overstretch yourself -- economy of force is the term of the time. However, given Japan's flexibility in production, I still think the Allied players should be able to change their's as well (even if only within tighter bounds, or perhaps requiring political points to change). This may take time and resources, but so it does for the Japanese player.
There should also be some flexibility to "emergencies", perhaps like the one above. After all, if history had turned out the way that the Japanese had pushed way more aggressive and there had been heavier air battles, or naval battles in 42, it is more than very likely that at least temporary a larger fraction of planes, ships, LCU etc. would have been diverted to the PAC theater to plug the holes.

< Message edited by janh -- 7/21/2011 9:42:28 AM >

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RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 9:53:13 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline 		You have only two options, believe me:
1- face the fact that you cannot sustain that loss-rate that your opponent imposes you and withdraw back till 1944 or
2- select only small areas where to fight and try to concentrate you reserves only for the battles that really matters but knowing that you will be able to sustain only a couple of weeks of heavy losses...so fight defensively and try to suck up his better pilots...

Whatever you chose, however, if you're playin scen 2, be aware that for all 1942 (and i think also 1943) you're gonna be short of every valuable plane. Especially fighters. So don't waste them.

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Post #: 18
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 10:08:25 AM   
SoliInvictus202


Posts: 367
Joined: 8/27/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

Well it's Jan. 1943, I have about 1/10 the combat aircraft that my VERY good opponent has (ROY the God of the rising Sun). I'm thinking of dispanding Most new squadrans that arrive in the west cost in order to get the aircraft to the areas that need them. Any thoughts on this tactic ??


the problem you are facing is that ROY plays the game and doesn'T fight the war

he enlarges all his groups by using CVs to get them to 70+ airplanes per squad.... - that gives him the ability to keep up with training pilots AND having a huge number of planes on the front....

and he has a few other tricks up his sleeve as well...

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RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 2:20:04 PM   
Miller


Posts: 2226
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoliInvictus202


quote:

ORIGINAL: sdhundt

Well it's Jan. 1943, I have about 1/10 the combat aircraft that my VERY good opponent has (ROY the God of the rising Sun). I'm thinking of dispanding Most new squadrans that arrive in the west cost in order to get the aircraft to the areas that need them. Any thoughts on this tactic ??


the problem you are facing is that ROY plays the game and doesn'T fight the war

he enlarges all his groups by using CVs to get them to 70+ airplanes per squad.... - that gives him the ability to keep up with training pilots AND having a huge number of planes on the front....and he has a few other tricks up his sleeve as well...


Gamey IMO.

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Post #: 20
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 2:26:20 PM   
ADB123

 

Posts: 1559
Joined: 8/18/2009
Status: offline 		I've just posted my January 1943 Fighter reserve numbers in my Allied AAR. I've found ways to have fighter squadrons filled with my best planes while still having plenty of reserves. Sure, it's scenario 1, but the principle still holds. (My scenario 2 Allied pbem opponent is doing the same thing to me... <LOL>)

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Post #: 21
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 3:16:42 PM   
PaxMondo


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Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonTirpitz

IIRC A similar thread a few months back pretty much indicated that no Jap players have yet come close to producing 'historical' levels overall (there may be some who overproduce a particular airframe beyond what was historically built but they will still get shot down by better allied planes and pilots later in the war).


You recall correctly. On one of the previous times this was discussed I asked for an example of a game (scenario 1) in which the Japanese produced significantly more aircraft than they did historically, but I did not receive a single reply to that question.

If the Japanese can consistently produce more aircraft than they did historically, while in a similar strategic situation, then it would indeed warrant a review of their production capacity. This is in relation to scenario 1, of course.

Andrew

Moreso, every allied commander complained bitterly of the lack of support (mainly aircraft, but actually most everything else as well) all through '42 and much of '43. Without Midway, it would have been MUCH worse and longer.

As stated above, it took time to convert the economy from Fords to Shermans. While Roosevelt considered diverting more the Pacific, the politics involved were daunting. Stalin was quite adamant about the support required and with the losses he was sustaining, there really was no rationale arguement. Short of losing Sydney or Aukland, I doubt any further resources would happen any sooner, and those additional resources are already largely modeled in the game (where do all those new troops get equipped from?). I think the stock game has the options well in hand for what historically might have happened. The fact is that IJ had no way to invade the West Coast, and anything they took, the allies knew they could take back after '44 when they would be producing 3:1 or better.

It was a bitter pill, particularly for egos like "I will return" MacArthur, to have to sit and run a defensive war for most of two years. That is the same pill that the allied player must swallow playing against a competent IJ player. When the allied player gets too impatient, he gets burned. Nimitz' singular quality IMHO was patience. He was able to wait until he had overwhelming force and then he put in motion a plan that was unstoppable.

Can you build a mod to have Roosevelt turn his back on Europe? Sure. Just as much a fantasy as Yamamoto taking power in the '30's and building 6 more CV's. Could have happened, but it didn't.

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RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 3:45:19 PM   
Shark7


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Status: offline 		In my experience, R&D to get the more advanced airframes early for Japan is far more important than churning out hundreds of A6M2s and Ki-43-Ic's.

Sure at first you need to ramp up your two best fighters to about 60/month production, but that can be handles simply by dropping ki-27s and a modest increase in the one you don't convert.

Honestly, the more important product to build up at first is HI points. You will need them later when you get the good aircraft and your factories are being smashed by B-29s.

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RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 3:48:48 PM   
LoBaron


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From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Interesting debate. I always thought that a good strategy game
requires planning ahead...

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RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 3:50:53 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Interesting debate. I always thought that a good strategy game
requires planning ahead...


Plan! We don't need no stinkin' plan!

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RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 4:03:41 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

If the Jap player puts up clouds of planes they will run out of useful pilots in very short order. The Japanese constraint isn't production so much as pilot training. They have to dedicate a LOT of groups to training in order to keep up with losses.





No, I have not seen this in my game. Ark will have to confirm this but I see no shortage of high quality Japanese pilots at all. And, I have killed enough of them. In fact, with no spare planes in the pools, Allied training can fall way behind the Japanese in 42 and 43 because empty units can train but only at a very slow pace. More planes means better trained pilots-not the reverse.



My low-plane-count units train just fine. Have no clue what you are seeing to make you say that. The Allies also have vastly more groups available for training than the Japanese do, and their pilots come out of the pool significantly better as well.

I don't know what year you are in with your game or what scenario (did you say?), but a 3:2 ratio in your favor doesn't smell like you are facing highly trained Jap pilots at all. Probably more like 60ish guys with mediocre experience. That's a 42 perspective from my experience in our 2x2 game. The Allied fighters just don't seem to match up very well with the Japanese ones in that time frame.

Now if you are in 43 and using Bolts, then yes, you have a point as you should be getting much better kill ratios than that even against good pilots and top Jap airframes.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

In my experience, R&D to get the more advanced airframes early for Japan is far more important than churning out hundreds of A6M2s and Ki-43-Ic's.

Sure at first you need to ramp up your two best fighters to about 60/month production, but that can be handles simply by dropping ki-27s and a modest increase in the one you don't convert.

Honestly, the more important product to build up at first is HI points. You will need them later when you get the good aircraft and your factories are being smashed by B-29s.


Exactly correct. Capture the oil/resources, see what your max will be after repairing the oil (not the refineries), and plan your HI expansion to fully use the oil. You'll need to leave a margin for fleet usage.

PDU Off is the cure for any disgruntlement about how many planes the Japanese can build.

< Message edited by Mynok -- 7/21/2011 4:04:05 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 4:14:31 PM   
mc3744


Posts: 1957
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From: Italy
Status: offline 		From what I've been reading on the forum the problem, if indeed there is one, is not with Japan's capability.
They don't seem to overproduce with respect to history, they "simply" optimize significantly their production. As this is a simulation, I find this completely acceptable. Could have happened, hence I'm good.

What I find slightly incoherent is the fact that the Allies cannot. The way I see it (which is of course entirely debatable ) either both players get to "optimize/change" or both go historical.

It does help game balance, but - maybe - there could be an historical scenario where both change or both don't and a balanced scenario(s) where Japan gets various types of enhancement for the sake of gameplay.

When I played Japan in WitP, my goal was to do better then history, hence losing wasn't an issue, as long as I lost "less". I completely understand that some players want the option of actually winning, not just point-wise.
I guess that it could be nice if both options were fully implemented.
Not that I don't like it as it is

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Post #: 27
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 5:15:52 PM   
oldman45


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Status: offline 		The US has grave shortages early in the war and if the tempo is higher than historical levels then the US will not be able to keep up with the production. It really is that simple. I am pretty confident that unless they switched production from AAF planes or built more factories there wouldn't be any more planes they could send.

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Post #: 28
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 5:22:23 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3079
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline 		I'd love to see a "scenerio 2" that had the same production advantages given to the Allies, but Japan has 2x the ship-building capacity. More 2nd generation fighters and 4eB's for the allies, more of those pesky Japanese CA's late in the war.  With any luck the air-forces would eliminate each other and we would have something closer to War Plan Orange later in the game.

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Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to oldman45)
Post #: 29
RE: Unable to fight--NO Aircraft...... - 7/21/2011 5:47:09 PM   
AcePylut9

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 6/4/2011
Status: offline 		Set all your "Training groups" to range 0.  That really helps cut down the ops losses to the trainers.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 30
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