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German Morale: 1942 - 7/15/2011 6:59:39 PM   
Q-Ball


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Starting a separate thread on this vs. the forts.

To me, this is the other issue with 1942; the Wehrmacht morale problem.

The Blizzard inevitably knocks down the German Morale; 1 pt. per turn outside, plus another for losing a combat. The German infantry morale is still pretty cooked after the Blizzard.

Most of the Panzer units in 1941 have morale in the 80-90 range. That's probably gone come spring regardless; there is no way to recover morale above 70-ish for the Panzers.

I think "Morale" is more than just morale, it's a general representation of operational efficiency; the Germans should take a bit of a hit from 1941 to 1942. But I don't think it should crater, like it does now.

I would be in favor of a fix for this; some possible suggestions:

1. Grant every German unit at the end of Blizzard 10 morale points. You can't get bumped, though, above 90 for SS, 85 for Panzers, and 75 for Infantry (but if you are already there, you keep your morale)
2. Eliminate the morale penalty for being outside in Blizzard (NOT in addition to #1!). Units in cities do still escape attrition losses. This would be pretty easy to implement.

I kind of like #2, it's simple, and the impact would likely erode over time as the Germans lose battles, and thus not completely unbalance 43/44/45. The Panzers would probably emerge in good shape from a Morale standpoint; the Infantry would suffer from losing some battles, but they should. Really, the big difference in 41 to 42 Wehrmacht was in the quality and availability of infantry, not Panzers

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 7/15/2011 7:01:20 PM >


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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/15/2011 7:37:58 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Removing the blizzard morale penalty might be a decent idea now that increasing morale when above the national morale is difficult. I've posted it on the tester forum. It has, of course, been talked about in the past but with the post-release changes to morale, it might be an idea to simply remove the blizzard penalty. There was a need for it when the Germans were running around with close to 99 morale/experience units, but now that most of them stay close to their initial levels, there's less need for it.

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/15/2011 7:48:50 PM   
kevini1000

 

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This morale thing might be what is creating alot of the problems.  I have not seen German morale increasing very much in 1941 and in fact I have it decreasing.  I'm certtain this will become worse when blizzard hits and then the 1-1 attacks become 2-1 with retreats.  Then the Germans lose morale while the Russian's gain and they are out in the open for more morale loss/Russian gain.  I think that by mid summer 42 the German army is much further degraded and Russian army much better in morale/experience terms then was ever the case.  At least for the 1942 time period.  I really think it was after Kursk that this edge the Germans had over the Russian's morale/experience wise began to seriously degrade and even then they were still tough.


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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/15/2011 7:56:24 PM   
Q-Ball


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The new morale rules really hurt the Germans.

If an SS Division at 90 Morale has 30 wins and 10 losses, chances are it will lose about 9 or 10 Morale over that period. It will end-up at lower morale, despite good combat results. Can anyone show me a Panzer unit with 85+ morale at the end of 1941? It's impossible, unless you park them.

Even if morale drops below the National Morale, the die-roll to increase is not favorable to the Germans.

The Russians, on the other hand, can get pretty much everyone to 55-ish morale, just by resting behind the lines.

I personally think you should ONLY lose morale on retreat results, NOT on "attack-lose" results. This would also really help the Germans into Blizzard.

Either way, the Wehrmacht has a morale problem that needs fixing

The Russians really don't; they can just rest to get to historical levels

I personally think National Morale should be an effective floor below which units will tend to go only temporarily, then bounce back quickly. Ideally, the Germans should have differing "Floors" for Panzers and LW troops (higher for Panzers, lower for LW). At the moment, it can take awhile to recover above National Morale.

Either way, making National Morale a "floor" would really help the Germans. You could leave the Winter bleed in place, since making a FLOOR would make it only temporary

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 7/15/2011 8:00:47 PM >


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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/15/2011 9:24:12 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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The Germans certainly do lose an edge in the Blizzard - even coming out of it in OK positions, the mid-50S to 60s morale makes even the "snow rebound" worse off. Panzers, as has been noted, hurt a lot - if they are used in fire-brigade roles in the winter they are cooked by spring.

edit - forgot my range :)

< Message edited by PeeDeeAitch -- 7/15/2011 9:29:00 PM >


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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/15/2011 9:29:12 PM   
kevini1000

 

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The thing that is most irritating in 1941 is having at unit at 85 morale then you start the next turn and its at 84. When it did not even loose a fight.

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/15/2011 9:58:20 PM   
Q-Ball


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The forts gets all the attention at the moment, but I think Morale is at least as important.

A Panzer Division can run wild, but one held attack, and morale drops. Not sure why this wasn't fixed when the morale gain for successful attacks was in place, since now morale can only move in one direction for the Germans, until it gets below 70.

German morale needs to be fixed

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/15/2011 10:13:26 PM   
kevini1000

 

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I agree if the upward morale movement is so hard downward morale should be as well or at least not that easy.

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/16/2011 2:27:24 AM   
PeeDeeAitch


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Those of us that played through the first few versions remember when morale rose too fast (99 morale Romanians anyone?)
However, now the morale hits seem too harsh...

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/16/2011 2:48:54 AM   
Baelfiin


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I think you hit the naill on the head with this one q-ball

Better morale would definetly help generate more movement in the lines.

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/16/2011 8:27:28 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Some morale shots from my game against Q-Ball.

First a sample of the infantry. Doesn't look too bad.




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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/16/2011 8:28:14 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Motorized divisions.




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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 7/16/2011 8:29:30 AM >

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/16/2011 8:29:02 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Panzer divisions.




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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/16/2011 8:33:25 AM   
Tarhunnas


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It is interesting that panzer and motorized divisions have no better morale than the infantry. I guess that is because I used them as fire brigades and for counterattacks in blizzard. I have a niggling memory that German units lose morale before every attack in blizzard. That might explain this. That makes it stupid to do counterattacks with armored units in blizzard. I am not sure that is so good, the Germans did precisely that, and I don't really see the rationale.

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/16/2011 1:25:18 PM   
Q-Ball


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Tarhunnas's morale is a bit better than I expected actually given how much they were kicked around, but still....Panzers should have higher morale in 1942 than that.

I do agree that today's rules are better than the old ones where Romanian units had 99 Morale, that was out of control. But there should be a mechanism to keep the Germans whole.

Maybe just eliminating the Winter penalty would do it. For you Tarhunnas, that would have saved most of your Panzers exactly 12 morale. If I add 12 Morale to most of those units, they are close to 1941 condition

I can post a screenie, but in general, all Russian Guards for me are about 60-65 (mostly 60-62), and Regulars are almost all in the 50-55 range, with a handful higher. That seems about right for the Russkies, it's the Germans that are too low.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 7/16/2011 1:28:21 PM >


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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/16/2011 2:42:19 PM   
Tarhunnas


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Or maybe the Soviets should have 45 in national morale in 1942? According to what I have read Soviet morale was low during 1942 and started to go up after Stalingrad.

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/17/2011 10:23:48 AM   
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Perhaps the Axis blizzard morale penalty could be a random chance of losing 1 point per turn ( or a chance based on a leader dice roll ) rather than automatic loss.

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/18/2011 4:22:22 AM   
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I personally like the logic of keeping morale losses in the blizzard, then some sort of bump when the snow returns. In short this allows the Germans some measure of effectiveness in the snow turns, and perhaps to build a decent counter-attack possibility by the time clear rolls around, yet still keeps the grind of the severe winter in place - along with the sense of eroding capabilites in January and February as the Axis are forced to use ever more of their mobile reserves as fire brigades.

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/18/2011 11:33:21 AM   
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With the new official patch, Germans are already much better in January 42 than they used to be. Let's not correct the first winter out of existence.

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/18/2011 1:33:33 PM   
Aussiematto

 

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This thread picks up something I was discussing on the other one about 1942 problems. I've pointed to the problems of breaking through with good Soviet morale but, in fact, you are right here -- it's poor German morale which is as much of a problem. 

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/18/2011 1:52:04 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chasman

With the new official patch, Germans are already much better in January 42 than they used to be. Let's not correct the first winter out of existence.

While I agree that the first winter is much better than it used to be, the problem is that the historical recovery of the Wehrmacht is not taken into account. The morale hits that are taken, even without ever losing a battle, cause problems in july when the time comes to mount another offensive. The fact that restoring morale is difficult makes it an even worse position for the german mobile units in the summer of 42.

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/18/2011 4:24:59 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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Of course, simply slapping a morale recovery on units is not the complete solution either. There are several things at play. The Spring 1942 morale recovery has been noted, but also the tank numbers recovery that historically happened can't really take place in game terms either. From very low estimated numbers in January 1942 to at least a couple of thousand tanks by Summer 1942, the real life situation is not mirrored in game.

The recovery was not simply units getting back into fighting trim, it was return of numbers (one suspects "long term damaged" tanks, for instance, were recovered), but also the cannibalizing of northern units to fill out the southern units in the German army. Many things either cannot take place in the game or do not for now.

The basic issue that the Soviet player is not going to make such mistakes is a given. However, failing this the Germans still cannot be ready for a hard driving 1942 unless they did very, very well in 1941. As a player, I have been on both ends of the spectrum - from a 1942 where I kept on advancing toward total victory to "all quiet on the Eastern Front" trenches in 1942.

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/18/2011 5:26:16 PM   
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I would add that the problem becomes how to have the germans build up only in one sector of the front and not front wide in 42. If you send all the men and afv's south the soviet player will just do the same and ww1 all over again.

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/18/2011 5:29:50 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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Well, as has been shown in some AARs, the Germans in 1942 can still hide their intentions and at least achieve some local superiority. It is a problem not of gaining such a situation but rather the ability of the units to actually achieve something...

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/18/2011 5:38:45 PM   
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The biggest problem is the 1v1 =2v1 rule.



< Message edited by Pelton -- 7/19/2011 4:03:18 PM >

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/18/2011 5:50:40 PM   
kvolk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Well, as has been shown in some AARs, the Germans in 1942 can still hide their intentions and at least achieve some local superiority. It is a problem not of gaining such a situation but rather the ability of the units to actually achieve something...



Agree about players skill creating opportunities but how do you game it so they only have limited refit and not across the whole german army

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/18/2011 5:52:24 PM   
Encircled


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I'll tell you whats a joke, and that is you going on about it because you are getting beaten in one game. Thats one game, not all of them, just one.

One game only

You need slightly more basis for such a major change than that.

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/18/2011 8:22:59 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kvolk


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Well, as has been shown in some AARs, the Germans in 1942 can still hide their intentions and at least achieve some local superiority. It is a problem not of gaining such a situation but rather the ability of the units to actually achieve something...



Agree about players skill creating opportunities but how do you game it so they only have limited refit and not across the whole german army


Give them fewer truck replacements so they have to static units in order to maintain the motor pool and replenish motorized divisions.

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RE: German Morale: 1942 - 7/18/2011 8:56:08 PM   
Joel Billings


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What would help me are some saves from 1.04 games in Sept-November 41 where I can view German unit morale and experience. If from a PBEM game, I'll need the password so I can open the German turn. I would like to get an idea of the morale/experience of German units (especially motorized and panzer divisions) before the blizzard. Are they staying static (around 87 average at start), going up, or going down. We're discussing several possible changes and this data would be useful. Please send to 2by3@2by3games.com. Thanks.

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