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RE: Invading Russia - 7/13/2011 4:15:01 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence


Frankly that statement is complete Bull$hit.


Well articulated and brilliantly researched and supported. I see I've been wasting my time. Can't say i'm suprised after your apalling and racially tinged crack in the Pearl Harbor book thread about CarDiv5's exp levels being the product of a diet of Rice Balls and Sushi.....coupled with your non answer to Local Yokle's challenge to assertations you made in the name of the new book on PH. I'll catalogue that alongside your comments regarding constant Japanese army retreats, head handings, plans to conquor all of China and institutionalized fanatical soldiers in 1939 strapping mines to their chests. You used to at least be open to intelligent dialogue.

Green button time. Have a nice hate.



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RE: Invading Russia - 7/13/2011 6:03:49 PM   
Puhis


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I think you're not wasting your time. You know, other people are reading these threads too, and might have more open minds. 

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RE: Invading Russia - 7/13/2011 6:18:34 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I think you're not wasting your time. You know, other people are reading these threads too, and might have more open minds. 


Your right. I was referring specifically to one person. I am always up for a good discussion with open minds. Nomanhan in particular was a facination for me as only until the last couple years, I knew next to nothing about it. Thx to a good recommendation from JoeW, I picked up Alan Coxx's definitive work on the battle which also gave an excellent overview of the Kwantung "Army" itself, it's history, rise, peak and fall prior to August Storm.

Speaking of which, just Kindled David Glantz's Soviet Strategic Offensive in Manchuria, 1945: Vol 1 (Soviet (Russian) Study of War) Facinating stuff that greatly expands on Coxx's overview. Mind numbing in it's detail, definately can only read in short bursts. One facinating thing already learned was that the US's "Desert Storm" in 91 was based on the Soviet operation, so successful was it. In fact (according to Glantz), in honor of the Soviet operation the planners changed the original codename from Desert Sword to "Storm" because of it. This operation tends to be discounted in the West alot because of the overall weakness of the opposition, but belies the complexity, timing and intricate planning, operationally, strategically and tactically that went into it. Really good stuff. It tends to burst the myth that the Red Army at the end of WWII was a bumpkin compared to the technical "Western Armies"

Love my Kindle btw......no more carting around 30ILB's worth of books with highlighters and pencils. Only issue is that for some reason "Shattered Sword" causes the thing to crash when you scroll through your self generated notes on it. Had to file a trouble report with Amazon after we determined that i didn't have a defective Kindle. An annoying thing....when you have 120+ pages of notes.


< Message edited by Nikademus -- 7/13/2011 6:20:23 PM >


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Post #: 33
RE: Invading Russia - 7/13/2011 6:33:52 PM   
witpqs


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Nik,

I haven't read all of those particular disagreements you mentioned but I have read some of them. What you characterize as a racially tinged remark about CarDiv5's pilots I did not see as that. Rice balls and sushi are a normal part of the diet in that culture. Someone making a similarly flippant remark about US pilots with high rankings that the commentator felt undeserved might quip "I suppose their great skills were due to eating cheeseburgers and fries?" Nothing racial about that remark either, just flippant and customized to the subject.


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Post #: 34
RE: Invading Russia - 7/13/2011 6:52:42 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Nik,

I haven't read all of those particular disagreements you mentioned but I have read some of them. What you characterize as a racially tinged remark about CarDiv5's pilots I did not see as that. Rice balls and sushi are a normal part of the diet in that culture. Someone making a similarly flippant remark about US pilots with high rankings that the commentator felt undeserved might quip "I suppose their great skills were due to eating cheeseburgers and fries?" Nothing racial about that remark either, just flippant and customized to the subject.




Oh i disagree. Ironically i was thinking the exact thing you did.....right down to "Cheeseburgers and Fries" but i have little to no doubt someone would have taken great offense if that had been combined with an equally caustic remark about USN exp levels. Another real life example (which did result in moderator intervention on another board) involved a caustic comment about German proficiency being the akinned to eating Suarkraut. Anyway.....i didn't appreciate the comment but did not rise to the bait or report it. It's true some people can be oversensitive.....that after all occured on the General Belgrano thread, but i do try to take into account sensitivities that revolve around race and cultural aspects, whether it be cheeseburgers or sushi. As always, its about intent and in my mind, the bile just poured off that post. Having given the benie of a doubt as did Local Yokel.....i'm taking the higher road and doin the Mynok.


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Post #: 35
RE: Invading Russia - 7/13/2011 8:46:22 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Nik,

I haven't read all of those particular disagreements you mentioned but I have read some of them. What you characterize as a racially tinged remark about CarDiv5's pilots I did not see as that. Rice balls and sushi are a normal part of the diet in that culture. Someone making a similarly flippant remark about US pilots with high rankings that the commentator felt undeserved might quip "I suppose their great skills were due to eating cheeseburgers and fries?" Nothing racial about that remark either, just flippant and customized to the subject.




Oh i disagree. Ironically i was thinking the exact thing you did.....right down to "Cheeseburgers and Fries" but i have little to no doubt someone would have taken great offense if that had been combined with an equally caustic remark about USN exp levels. Another real life example (which did result in moderator intervention on another board) involved a caustic comment about German proficiency being the akinned to eating Suarkraut. Anyway.....i didn't appreciate the comment but did not rise to the bait or report it. It's true some people can be oversensitive.....that after all occured on the General Belgrano thread, but i do try to take into account sensitivities that revolve around race and cultural aspects, whether it be cheeseburgers or sushi. As always, its about intent and in my mind, the bile just poured off that post. Having given the benie of a doubt as did Local Yokel.....i'm taking the higher road and doin the Mynok.


That's just the sort of perspective I'd expect from a Seattle coffee drinker...



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Post #: 36
RE: Invading Russia - 7/13/2011 9:16:26 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
I see I've been wasting my time.


I should have warned you about that one.

quote:


Green button time. Have a nice hate.


Wise. You want my list? It might save you some time.


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Post #: 37
RE: Invading Russia - 7/13/2011 11:21:09 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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LOL

If I could get the units I have in WitE and send them to the Far East I suspect disturbing the bear would be indeed a very BAD idea! I don't think the Japanese could beat these many hordes...

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Post #: 38
RE: Invading Russia - 7/13/2011 11:54:39 PM   
vonTirpitz


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I tend to agree Tullius.

I've pressed China hard in my PBEM and it is a huge drain on troops and supply. IMHO, fighting the Soviets at the anytime during the war does not give a Japanese player any advantage and will ultimately weaken and drain valuable resources desperately needed elsewhere.

That said, I'm still hoping to see a B-29 get interned and show up as an ops loss.

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Post #: 39
RE: Invading Russia - 7/14/2011 12:33:52 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonTirpitz

That said, I'm still hoping to see a B-29 get interned and show up as an ops loss.


In theory they should be released or "escape" one year after the attack. Some Doolittle's guys "escaped" via Persia (aka Iran) in 1943, if I remember correctly.

I suspect the Soviets did not want to provoke the Japanese. Had they released them the Japanese could have correctly concluded that the Soviet Far East was in fact some sort of "base" for the Allies in the Pacific. A Casus Belli that is. And the Soviets were quite busy in the European part of their country

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Post #: 40
RE: Invading Russia - 7/14/2011 2:50:37 AM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
How foolish of me to think that the retreats after every battle and subsequent seeking, signing and maintenance of the non-aggression pact
had any significance whatsoever.



Indeed, as there were several major skirmishes with Soviet forces in addition to Nomanhan and the results were not always retreats...nor did every battle during Nomanhan result in a retreat and/or defeat. The seeking and signing of agreements and ultimately a non-aggression pact was part and parcel of the posturing, both diplomatically and at times, militarily that frequently occured along the vast Siberian/Manchurian border of which there were constant incidents and disputes on certain pieces of territory. Neither side wanted full scale war (not counting some radical voices within the troublesome Kwantung army), but neither side was going to have it's perceived soverenty compromised either. Thus like two children in a playground there were incidents and a few flash points but ultimately both sides backed down. Nomanhan was the biggest flash point of course and was a clear operational defeat for Japan, but the result was the same after the shooting stopped....both sides agreed to cease and an uneasy peace resumed. The non-aggression pact suited both sides at the time, but at one point after the German invasion the Kwantung Army did build up for a possible invasion. Its an interesting what if of course had it attacked Russia.

I am also unaware of the "institutionalized" use of Japanese soliders fanatically strapping mines to their chests and throwing themselves at Russian tanks in the period prior to the start of WWII as you suggested. I can recommend a couple of very good books on Nomanhan if your seriously interested in the subject.....which i doubt based on your recent pattern of posts. But the offer stands.




I'm interested! What are the names of these very good books?

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Post #: 41
RE: Invading Russia - 7/14/2011 2:57:12 AM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Nik,

I haven't read all of those particular disagreements you mentioned but I have read some of them. What you characterize as a racially tinged remark about CarDiv5's pilots I did not see as that. Rice balls and sushi are a normal part of the diet in that culture. Someone making a similarly flippant remark about US pilots with high rankings that the commentator felt undeserved might quip "I suppose their great skills were due to eating cheeseburgers and fries?" Nothing racial about that remark either, just flippant and customized to the subject.





I wish you would have not said that. I'm trying to lose weight(I'm about 35 lbs over) and I LIVE for cheeseburgers and french fries.

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After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

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Post #: 42
RE: Invading Russia - 7/14/2011 5:04:25 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

I'm interested! What are the names of these very good books?


The book you need to start with is Nomonhan: Japan Against Russia 1939 by Alvin D. Coox. (sorry...i always mis-spell the author's name initially)

It's the thus far definitive account of the battle and also includes the full history of the Kwantung Army and the situation in Manchuria. It's similar to the later works by David Glantz....aka, its mind numbing in it's detail. at 1,276 pages, it will keep you busy for a while. I exhausted 12 highlighters on it. (ok...i'm highlighter happy.....trying to be better...thank god for Kindle! still....thats how good it was if you rate it in highlighters instead of stars)

A good 2nd source to cross reference with is Krivosheev, G.F., Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses In The Twentieth Century, Stackpole: Pennsylvania, 1997.


< Message edited by Nikademus -- 7/14/2011 5:07:15 PM >


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Post #: 43
RE: Invading Russia - 7/14/2011 5:22:02 PM   
Mynok


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12 highlighters? Do they not put indexes in these books you read?

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RE: Invading Russia - 7/14/2011 5:36:43 PM   
Nikademus


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oh and an entire lead pencil for my own notes.


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Post #: 45
RE: Invading Russia - 7/14/2011 8:21:07 PM   
Mynok


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You'd use fewer highlighters if you'd only highlight the stuff you didn't want to highlight.

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Post #: 46
RE: Invading Russia - 7/14/2011 11:10:01 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


You'd use fewer highlighters if you'd only highlight the stuff you didn't want to highlight.

+1



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Pax

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Post #: 47
RE: Invading Russia - 7/15/2011 3:14:35 AM   
Raverdave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus




The book you need to start with is Nomonhan: Japan Against Russia 1939 by Alvin D. Coox. (sorry...i always mis-spell the author's name initially)



You can most of the book online http://books.google.com/books?id=SIAwKiNRmrAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false



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