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RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/23/2011 8:31:39 PM   
Harmonious Hegemony

 

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At the risk of derailing what is shaping up to be a stellar class flame war, I have an idea for this topic to put up for discussion.

How about implementing the concept of "Spheres of Influence", something like Civ had/has (I think). A sphere of influence would be the strongest at the center of population for an empire and weaken with distance. Colonies that fell under another empire's SOI would have an increased likelihood of going over to them. This wouldn't establish borders per se, but would have the effect of controlling expansion, so that empires would have to grow from the center outward rather than helter-skelter across the entire map. You could colonize to your heart's content without penalty right up until you bump into another empire. Then, if you try to push too far into his territory you are likely to lose your colony. Maybe this could be mitigated with heavy garrisoning. If you think about it, its not so unbelievable that if you send out a colony ship to colonize a planet in the heart of another empire, that they might just see a greater advantage to leaving yours and joining up with the local powers that be. This would also allow for some overlap at the frontiers, where no empire has dominant influence.

All in all, this seems to me to accomplish most of what people are looking for from the borders/territory concept without creating the artificial restrictions that some are worried about. I'm not a professional programmer, but it also doesn't seem to me too difficult for CF to implement. What do you think?

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 61
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/23/2011 8:44:06 PM   
Data


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I think that's exactly what GalCiv and other similar games did and it seems to be the trend. Influence and culture push, influence starbases and such. There are pros and cons to it, as I said previously I'd have no problem to play either way but I would like this setup as an option so who wants it can check it and who doesn't want it can uncheck it.

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Post #: 62
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/23/2011 9:01:53 PM   
Igard


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HH, I'm thinking that is probably the way Elliot is going to go with it. I'd love to be able to establish a more complex system than just that, but essentially I think you're right. To compromise between those who like the freedom to colonise where they want, but also penalise them for getting in another empires territory.


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Post #: 63
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/24/2011 3:17:53 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Could it be ... is it possible... that he's gotten psychiatric help?


Did I miss something that would justify this personal attack? Because if I didn't, knock it off. Personal attacks are against the forum rules.

Regards,

- Erik


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Post #: 64
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/24/2011 8:16:04 AM   
Facedrop


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Erik the bane of flamewars

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Post #: 65
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/24/2011 9:14:44 AM   
Data


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The man with the stick has returned

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Post #: 66
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/24/2011 6:09:49 PM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Did I miss something that would justify this personal attack? Because if I didn't, knock it off. Personal attacks are against the forum rules.


If you wish to enforce forum rules, perhaps you should go through the thread - he actually started the whole personal attacks, and has continued it.

Granted, I shouldn't have sunk to his level - but there was no action from anyone in authority.

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Post #: 67
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/24/2011 7:10:21 PM   
Igard


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So if someone disagrees with you. You take it as a personal attack? And respond with several serious below the belt, personal attacks. Very volatile.

You know what. Never mind. Back on the green button for you.


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Post #: 68
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/25/2011 1:21:08 PM   
tjhkkr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harmonious Hegemony

At the risk of derailing what is shaping up to be a stellar class flame war.

How about implementing the concept of "Spheres of Influence", something like Civ had/has (I think). A sphere of influence would be the strongest at the center of population for an empire and weaken with distance. Colonies that fell under another empire's SOI would have an increased likelihood of going over to them. This wouldn't establish borders per se, but would have the effect of controlling expansion, so that empires would have to grow from the center outward rather than helter-skelter across the entire map. You could colonize to your heart's content without penalty right up until you bump into another empire. Then, if you try to push too far into his territory you are likely to lose your colony. Maybe this could be mitigated with heavy garrisoning. If you think about it, its not so unbelievable that if you send out a colony ship to colonize a planet in the heart of another empire, that they might just see a greater advantage to leaving yours and joining up with the local powers that be. This would also allow for some overlap at the frontiers, where no empire has dominant influence.

All in all, this seems to me to accomplish most of what people are looking for from the borders/territory concept without creating the artificial restrictions that some are worried about. I'm not a professional programmer, but it also doesn't seem to me too difficult for CF to implement. What do you think?


Please derail the flame wars... PLEASE

As to your real question: I thinks spheres of influence is a cool idea -- I am not sure how that would effect colonization but it certainly play its hand in diplomacy and other factors as welll... Although we see that in our colony standings; just last night i saw 'in awe of empires around us...' Maybe this could be explanded on...

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Post #: 69
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/25/2011 6:49:59 PM   
Harmonious Hegemony

 

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The way I see it you could send ships to colonize anywhere, its just that as they get farther from your empire's core and more into another empires sphere you stand an increasing chance (increasing with distance and time) of them changing sides. This would allow for fuzzy frontiers but would tend to keep an empire's core area free from interlopers.

The biggest problem I am having with the current "birds nest" approach is its effect on conducting wars. It's all but impossible to put up an organized defense. Of course this is just my take on things. I guess I played SE5 for too long

I think you are right though, as the mechanism for colonies going over to another empire is already in the game. I am thinking that this means it wouldn't be too tough for CF to implement if they decide to.

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Post #: 70
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/25/2011 8:24:51 PM   
Kal Naar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harmonious Hegemony

The way I see it you could send ships to colonize anywhere, its just that as they get farther from your empire's core and more into another empires sphere you stand an increasing chance (increasing with distance and time) of them changing sides. This would allow for fuzzy frontiers but would tend to keep an empire's core area free from interlopers.

The biggest problem I am having with the current "birds nest" approach is its effect on conducting wars. It's all but impossible to put up an organized defense. Of course this is just my take on things. I guess I played SE5 for too long

I think you are right though, as the mechanism for colonies going over to another empire is already in the game. I am thinking that this means it wouldn't be too tough for CF to implement if they decide to.



Good idea,

There should also be some distance penalty applied to the private ships transporting goods and migrants, that could reduce growth rate for the colony.
This could be achieved by increased attrition caused by pirates or privateer from other empires that are closer to or on the path to the colony.
As the game is now, I hardly see interceptions, shouldn't pirates use hyperdeny tech to this effect?


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Post #: 71
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/25/2011 8:35:14 PM   
Kal Naar

 

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How does system ownership works?
Is it achieved only by making the first colony in a system?


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RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/25/2011 8:59:00 PM   
Data


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Yes and no. Once a player colonizes a colony than the system takes his colors but anyone can colonize other colonies in the same system. Unfortunatelly, afaik, it's not like in MOO2 where each would get a color in that system and you could end up with a rainbow of a system. But that at least would indicate various ownerships in that system.
I have a terrible lapse now and I don't know if the same applies with DW.

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Post #: 73
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/25/2011 10:07:34 PM   
Kal Naar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Data

Yes and no. Once a player colonizes a colony than the system takes his colors but anyone can colonize other colonies in the same system. Unfortunatelly, afaik, it's not like in MOO2 where each would get a color in that system and you could end up with a rainbow of a system. But that at least would indicate various ownerships in that system.
I have a terrible lapse now and I don't know if the same applies with DW.



Thanks, that was what I thought.

I was thinking about a way to define the empire territory and also a way to reduce the overlapping empires effect.
And thought this could be achieved if the empires could claim ownership of systems without the need to colonize them.

This would mean that if a system had no current owner, an empire only had to build some assets (mines, starbases) or garrison a sufficient military presence (new mission type for fleets) in order to be able to
claiming it.

After successfully claiming a system, the normal diplomatic penalties would apply for other empires trying to enter or to build their own assets.

This would then open the possibility for a new diplomatic branch, where every empire could make their own claim about ownership of a disputed system.
The claim suitability would be defined by different metrics, like:
- distance to homeworld...
- amount of assets currently in the system,
- length of ownership,
- number of colonies in system

Denying a valid claim request would result in penalties with that nation, that would result in a casus belly, or in extreme cases an immediate declaration of war.

As each empire would make scouting and claiming closer systems their primary focus, the empires would tend to be more focused, since expansion could only be achieved by war or alliances.

As some have pointed earlier, this would open the possibility to some additional treaties:
- Free Trade Agreement
- Military Access
- Mutual Defense Pact
- Alliance (Allowing development in shared systems)


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Post #: 74
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/25/2011 10:37:36 PM   
tjhkkr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kal Naar
How does system ownership works?
Is it achieved only by making the first colony in a system?


Note entirely... my version of the Ancient Ones colonize planets... and I have purely accidently (and I am serious here guys, I did not intend for this to happen) colonized the same planet, and the Ancient ones already there joined my empire...
Also during war, one can have a colony go independent...

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Post #: 75
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/25/2011 10:39:48 PM   
tjhkkr


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Oh one other thing, there are regional capitals available letter in the game depending on your tech-level, and that seems to control things too...

Question for the others...
How many regional capitals are you allowed. So far, I have been only able to put one down.

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Post #: 76
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/25/2011 11:56:17 PM   
ehsumrell1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr

Oh one other thing, there are regional capitals available letter in the game depending on your tech-level, and that seems to control things too...

Question for the others...
How many regional capitals are you allowed. So far, I have been only able to put one down.

I believe TJ that 3 is the number, contingent upon your tech level. There is a tech tree area
in a branch where you can research 'Regional Governance' that increases the number you can build.

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RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/26/2011 1:04:23 PM   
tjhkkr


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Thank you!

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Post #: 78
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/26/2011 3:26:26 PM   
Data


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Ed is spot on

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Post #: 79
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/26/2011 7:17:37 PM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Igard

So if someone disagrees with you. You take it as a personal attack? And respond with several serious below the belt, personal attacks. Very volatile.

You know what. Never mind. Back on the green button for you.



Refer back to his post RE: ETA on expac? - 7/14/2011 8:55:28 AM - you'll see the personal attacks comments there.

I assume you have no trouble with the definitions of "troll" that he proposed which encompassed anyone who questioned the veracity his statements? I believe I have a better understanding of you now.

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RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/26/2011 7:24:16 PM   
Kayoz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harmonious Hegemony

The way I see it you could send ships to colonize anywhere, its just that as they get farther from your empire's core and more into another empires sphere you stand an increasing chance (increasing with distance and time) of them changing sides. This would allow for fuzzy frontiers but would tend to keep an empire's core area free from interlopers.


1. I'm not sure I agree with the "distance from core" idea. If you start off close to another race - then your "core" area will overlap a lot, resulting in planets switching sides unpredictably.
2. The concept of what is "core" is subject to interpretation. If you discover a lost colony (ie: relatively large population) far from your homeworld - does a nearby new colony of another race stand a greater chance of joining you - or your colony of joining them?

I think greater detail needs to be put into what "core" means and what factors determine "sphere of influence". Bad implementation of this would lead to behaviour which could not be explained by the average player - "wtf? My 6 billion strong lost colony just up and joined the empire with a dinky 30m colony next to me????"

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RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/27/2011 1:53:39 AM   
Simulation01


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You simply should NOT be allowed to colonize in another Empire's territory unless you declare war, and military ships should not be allowed to cross the border of another empire when they are automated.  The player should have to give a direct order to violate another nations territory.  The AI should be programmed to respect borders until such time as they are ready to deteriorate relations, attack, or declare war. 

I would accept that another empire could cross another empires territory and colonize a planet only if the planet and system they colonize remained under the control of the owning empire before colonization.  Change of ownership would only occur once the colony amassed a certain development level.  The planet would act autonomously till such time.  When the colony reached said development level the empire in which it is located should receive a notification that said planet or system will fall under the control of the colonizing empire.  You should then be given a set of options...1.allow the planet or system to change hands...2.Deny the change and occupy the planet ( which would remain autonomous and act as a neutral empire...this would negatively affect relations with the colonizing empire as in the mean time, but so would the initial offending colonization ). 3.Deny and blockade the planet and use it in negotiations ( you would have the option of changing your mind about this system at any time in the future if of course you do not allow it to join with the colonizing empire ). I envision a popup screen with these options on it.

There is another thought as well.  If a rival empire founds a colony in your empire you could begin rushing your own citizens to the planet in question in order to turn the tables and basically 'steal' the colony from the original thieves.  You should have to build two or three colony ships to accomplish this feat.  You should then also have the option of enslaving or eradicating the 'alien' population.  This of course should negatively affect relations between empires.

Please feel free to praise or rip this idea....but something like this is the only way I would be mollified by allowing rival empire ships to cross borders without a declaration of war.  I apologize for channeling Congress tonight.


< Message edited by Simulation01 -- 7/27/2011 1:55:45 AM >


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Post #: 82
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/27/2011 10:05:23 PM   
Kal Naar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

You simply should NOT be allowed to colonize in another Empire's territory unless you declare war, and military ships should not be allowed to cross the border of another empire when they are automated.  The player should have to give a direct order to violate another nations territory.  The AI should be programmed to respect borders until such time as they are ready to deteriorate relations, attack, or declare war. 




That option already exists in the game, in Options > Automation > Empire Settings, you can define so you can't colonize or build mining stations in other empires systems.
So the AI can control that option already, and maybe could be easily expanded for your idea, with warnings for the player when an manual action would cause a casus belli or war.


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Post #: 83
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/27/2011 10:36:30 PM   
Kal Naar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harmonious Hegemony

How about implementing the concept of "Spheres of Influence", something like Civ had/has (I think).



I would prefer a solution that would rely on the player/ai decision for territory definition, since a SOI causes empires to always have ownership of the neighboring systems, it would remove a game play possibility that could exist otherwise.




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Post #: 84
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/28/2011 11:24:55 AM   
Simulation01


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kal Naar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Simulation01

You simply should NOT be allowed to colonize in another Empire's territory unless you declare war, and military ships should not be allowed to cross the border of another empire when they are automated.  The player should have to give a direct order to violate another nations territory.  The AI should be programmed to respect borders until such time as they are ready to deteriorate relations, attack, or declare war. 




That option already exists in the game, in Options > Automation > Empire Settings, you can define so you can't colonize or build mining stations in other empires systems.
So the AI can control that option already, and maybe could be easily expanded for your idea, with warnings for the player when an manual action would cause a casus belli or war.





My point is that the AI doesn't seem to play by these common sense rules very much and that they should. It makes no sense to found colony's deep inside hostile territory or within friendly territory since that would cause hard feelings. Also this is within the context of a border system not the current ownership system or whatever you want to call it.

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RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/28/2011 12:59:01 PM   
Fideach

 

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I wouldn't mind seeing something like controlling sectors of space. But I would say the current sectors might be a bit too big for that. Might need to make them smaller for that to work. Perhaps once your influence gets to a certain point the sector defaults to your control and any other Empire\Independent colonies will suffer reduction in income and growth? Depending on your diplomatic relations and agreements with them.

I'm really just wanting something that allows me to assign fleets of ships to certain sectors\borders on my empire to auto defend\attack. Be able to tell them "go no where else, but to planets in this "sector", and defend". Or even "your base is here, at this space station\planet and you are to attack and intercept threats in these areas only" while just checking a box for defense operations, or assigning the fleet to attack operations and what sectors they should attack\defend and what should be the attack priority. What they should attack, and what they shouldn't. 

Since I'm so tired of seeing fleets based out of a planet on the other side of the universe flying off to who knows where while my planets are attacked.  Especially when they decide they should blow up one measly ship of an aggressive empire on the far side of where they should be station. That a single escort ship of mine could blow up by itself.

Would be nice if the AI could assist with assigning the appropriate number of ships\fleets to different "borders" of your empire based on the threat coming from that direction.

Hmm would be nice to also be able to zoom out on the map, and assign whole sectors to different types of operations. For example: Sector AB4 and 5 is unexplored. Please prioritize exploration in this area *check box\slider changed*. While Sector BC5 and BC6 are on the boarder of three aggressive empires that are threatening war. Please prioritize beefing up both orbital\ground defenses and increasing defense fleet sizes. *check box\slider changed*. Oh, also assign attack fleets to operate out of certain areas whose sole purpose is to wage guerrilla warfare. Be it an economic attacks only, or preemptive attacks on enemy military ships and installations.

Borders and what I was talking about could also let the game overtime develop neutral or pirate sectors that will be infested not only with pirates, but also mercanires ships\fleets you could pay to do something for you. Either hiring them to do so, or "buying" them flat out.  Be a resource area to buy black market goods like illegal technologies that the United Nations of the galaxy has outlawed (if something like that is ever added) or rare resources.

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Post #: 86
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/28/2011 3:44:03 PM   
Seath

 

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i really like your ideas Fideach.
Exactly this type of actions needs the game to become more interesting in the mid/endgame and a lot easyer to control. I am a control freak... so i play without any automation and its a lot of micromanagment to fight a war.
Also a tipe of Galactic Senate or something like that should be added like in MOO2 or GalCiv II.

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Post #: 87
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/28/2011 4:19:56 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Data

Yes and no. Once a player colonizes a colony than the system takes his colors but anyone can colonize other colonies in the same system. Unfortunatelly, afaik, it's not like in MOO2 where each would get a color in that system and you could end up with a rainbow of a system. But that at least would indicate various ownerships in that system.
I have a terrible lapse now and I don't know if the same applies with DW.


Also, unlike MoO, in DW, the more powerful/prosperous empire might end up with the planet in the end just from the citizens deciding they want to swap sides. I've lost several planets this way. In fact, most of the time this is what happens, so the rainbow effect doesn't last long.

However, when I find a rare resource planet I can colonize, I don't care if another empire is there first, I'm colonizing the planet. You just have to station a sizable fleet and more several trooper units there to be sure and hold it. Getting a small SP built and upgrading to a large as soon as practical also helps. Typically, my capital and the rare resource planets are my most heavily defended with a LSP, several defense bases of various designs, and a fleet at the ready.

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Post #: 88
RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 7/28/2011 7:58:39 PM   
Data


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quote:

Typically, my capital and the rare resource planets are my most heavily defended with a LSP, several defense bases of various designs, and a fleet at the ready.


only that?

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RE: Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory - 10/17/2011 10:07:12 PM   
Stormy Fairweather

 

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If I may suggest; have an configurable distance from colonies that qualifies as a border, and a separate distance from bases that do the same thing, write up a simple algorithm for allowing borders to merge if the distance between then is small, or split the difference when overlap occurs. Any civilian ship from a nuetral or friendly empire crossing a border should pay a small tariff to the owner, including, perhaps, customs fees. This would open up many diplomacy options, such as allowing certain ships to enter one's territory without penalty, lowering customs for some races/goods, as well as empire wide polices, such as having your patrols fire on nuetral civilian ships. Crossing borders with any military units, or building anything in another borders, should be treated as an act of war. I would even suggest taking this a step further, enabling the placement of 'claims' on systems or lesser stellar contructs, that your friends could be expected to respect, and others might be indifferent to; something like a half-border. And on the other end, perhaps even some empire rules for how far from your territory different types of ships will stray or wht type of missions outside of your borders your advisors advise. Just my two cents, and what I think of when I think of borders in space. There is nothing in a 4x space game I hate more than having a number of systems under my control, and somewhere near the middle of my established colonies a 'friend' colonizes a system I didn't. It doesn't matter that I had not colonized it yet, it is in my middle of my turf and is an intrusion, the AI doesn't, cannot, see it that way.

Edit - I just realized this si a necro post... sorry.

< Message edited by Stormy Fairweather -- 10/17/2011 10:16:32 PM >

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