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AA vs Aircraft - 5/31/2011 8:04:54 PM   
WarHunter


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Hoping some work is going into the air model for the next patch.

Currently in a PBEM 1.03 that has been ongoing since it was released. My Red Army opponent rains death from above and this is just 1 example of high flying hell. Until now i just suffered through the turns of air attacks.

Yet, what if others are having the same results? If its just the game im playing, ok bad luck, play on. If not?

One example of Airfield bombing. The exact numbers of AA guns firing at 13 bombing missions is unknown. Nor have i counted the total number of Sorties, both Axis and Soviet, over 13 missions.

I'm concerned how so many AA guns can miss. Especially after continued attacks. (This is not an isolated case, my opponent loves to bomb). You would think after the 5th or 6th bombing, accuracy would go up from practice. Another base was hit 19 times, with the same type of results AA vs AC.

Maybe someone with more knowledge of Aircraft losses vs AAA fire could shed some light on this element of the game. Are these numbers close to accurate? If so I'll go back to my slit trench and await the next hell storm.

If there is another screen shot that could help, let me know I'll copy and paste whatever is needed.

btw, Will we ever see Air radius circles to gauge better our Limits of air cover? Counting hexes for air cover is very SPI/AH. Even little signposts like, 23 hexes from Smolensk to Moscow would be an improvement.







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“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
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RE: AA vs Aircraft - 5/31/2011 9:05:24 PM   
Zebedee


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If you follow the combat in detail, the main impact of AA is that it seems to reduce the effectiveness of the bombers by preventing them even dropping their bombs. 

(in reply to WarHunter)
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RE: AA vs Aircraft - 5/31/2011 9:39:50 PM   
pat.casey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zebedee

If you follow the combat in detail, the main impact of AA is that it seems to reduce the effectiveness of the bombers by preventing them even dropping their bombs. 


That at least is conceptually accurate ... historically AA was an area denial weapon with a side effect of sometimes shooting down enemy planes, but if they bombed short or wide because they didn't want to enter the flack belt that was considered acceptable.

(in reply to Zebedee)
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RE: AA vs Aircraft - 5/31/2011 11:09:33 PM   
WarHunter


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Going by what the rules state, aircraft either survive the AA fire or they don't. Additionally, flak is firing x3 and still no hits?

quote:

For all air missions except bomb city, anti-aircraft fire from the target hex will fire at three times the normal rate.

Bombers and fighter bombers that survive air to air and anti-aircraft fire will attempt to use their equipped bombs and rockets to hit targets in the hex they are attacking. The target and the affect of a hit is dependent on the type of air mission being conducted (16.3).

There are five bombing missions; bomb unit, bomb airfield, bomb city, ground support and interdiction.


I'm having a problem believing the air model is working as intended. Especially after seeing this type of combat result multiple times.

_____________________________


“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

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RE: AA vs Aircraft - 6/1/2011 12:02:27 AM   
saygame

 

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@WarHunter

+1

Maybe the blizzard has somethin to do with these results. I smell Russian supermen maybe.
But 400+ AA firing on thirteen attacks ?
Tell your gunners to save their ammo
Or execute them.
:(


< Message edited by saygame -- 6/1/2011 12:03:59 AM >

(in reply to WarHunter)
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RE: AA vs Aircraft - 6/1/2011 12:33:49 AM   
Zebedee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter
I'm having a problem believing the air model is working as intended. Especially after seeing this type of combat result multiple times.


You'd have to look and see what exactly was happening in the actual combat to have any accurate idea of whether your AA is working or not. Would the results have been worse without the AA? The Soviets will have probably lost more planes flying the missions than the Germans lost on the ground and how many of those op losses are a result of damage results from AA? How many of the German 'killed' are actually just damaged and counting towards the kill total? Would putting German fighters within intercept range have sent most of the Soviet bombers home as usually happens?

Air model is something devs have already said they'll be working on in future. There's obviously issues with it which they are aware of but unless people are willing to dig into the combat results beyond the final tally screens there's little really to go on.

(in reply to WarHunter)
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RE: AA vs Aircraft - 6/1/2011 1:26:37 AM   
WarHunter


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quote:

There's obviously issues with it which they are aware of but unless people are willing to dig into the combat results beyond the final tally screens there's little really to go on.

Zebedee, How about enlightening me on how one goes beyond the final tally screen to dig deeper? Especially for a gaming moron like me.

This is a pbem game. Should i ask for the pw from my opponent?
Do i solo a game til i get to the same time just to test the results?
Showing just 3 of hundreds of combats screens is not enough to look at? Would you like to see more of them? What will it serve to copy and paste til my eyes and fingers bleed.

The fact is no one can say this is unusual in the game as it stands. That is the sad part.

At Pearl Harbor the Japanese sent 2 waves of attackers. 29 planes failed to returned. 9 in the 1st wave, 20 in the second. The 1st wave was a surprise. Imagine 13 waves.


_____________________________


“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to Zebedee)
Post #: 7
RE: AA vs Aircraft - 6/1/2011 4:24:51 AM   
Zebedee


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How about turning combat detail up and having a look to see what kind of results your AA is having in damaging Soviet aircraft and forcing aborted bombing runs and the cross-referencing that with Soviet ops losses per mission? Just a suggestion. But feel free to fill your boots copying and pasting screens which show that bombers and AA seem to not really do much damage in blizzards. Would have thought that was self-evident but perhaps not.

(in reply to WarHunter)
Post #: 8
RE: AA vs Aircraft - 6/1/2011 5:40:15 AM   
WarHunter


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quote:

bombers and AA seem to not really do much damage in blizzards
Maybe it should be pointed out, axis flak is next to useless in blizzard while soviet bombers not so much.
Over 13 waves:
axis losses to bombing ftr 43 bmr 59 utl 2
soviet losses to flak ftr 1 bmr 4 

Yes Blizzard effects are working.

Exactly how does turning up the combat detail help me see results more clearly from my opponents attacks?
I'm not the current player looking at the combat resolution real time 0 to 7. I'm the passive opponent looking at battle reports that may have hidden somewhere a more detailed report, that i don't know where it is.
quote:

Combat Resolution Message Level: This determines the amount of information given about a battle in the Combat Resolution window that appears at the top of the screen during combat resolution.
This level may be set during game play, to include during combat resolution, by pressing the numbers 0-7.


Look I'm not trying to be a hard-ass. This topic is up because it looks like a problem. If the game is going to get better, should we not put our 2cents in and see if these results are normal or abnormal, compared to others playing the same game, in the blizzard or not.

about the screen shots... maybe when i hire a personal secretary. 


_____________________________


“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell

(in reply to Zebedee)
Post #: 9
RE: AA vs Aircraft - 6/1/2011 6:38:07 AM   
Zebedee


Posts: 535
Joined: 8/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter
Exactly how does turning up the combat detail help me see results more clearly from my opponents attacks?


You'll see it on your turn though? And so can judge whether or not flak is, in your opinion and perception, as effective as it should be and provide you with data to make a reasoned argument if it is not as effective as you feel it should be. And yeah, it's time consuming and an absolute ballache to do. A few people have requested a way to export out the combat results at max detail to make it easier so here's hoping that the devs will consider giving us the tools to make it much easier and less time consuming just to gather the data. (Here's one I posted, so yeah, I know it's a real ballache and trying to pin something down to make a fair argument based on data... heh... http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2817501 ).

quote:


Look I'm not trying to be a hard-ass. This topic is up because it looks like a problem. If the game is going to get better, should we not put our 2cents in and see if these results are normal or abnormal, compared to others playing the same game, in the blizzard or not.


My point is that it's impossible to make a case for whether it's a problem or not without looking at what's going on. The air model is very like that of WitP and it's very possible that non-immediate losses (ie the plane doesn't explode in a flaming fireball and crash land next to the AA gun) are reflected by damage results during the combat resolution and then in increased ops losses or damaged planes needing repair and so unavailable again that turn. So while your AA gunners are not getting Iron Crosses, they may still be having an impact. The more immediate impact of AA is that, in this game, it can force planes to either be limited in what they drop or cause them not to have drop at all. How do your results compare for that? The data just isn't there to say whether anything is abnormal or not. For what very little it's worth, I strongly suspect that flak losses are understated within the game currently in terms of percentage of losses to sorties but that's likely to be a result of historical data being used which tends to understate the impact of flak. Demonstrating that is another thing altogether heh.

(in reply to WarHunter)
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